Gosh, I think you'll get some varying responses on this, and it may really depend if you can perceive any significant difference when you listen yourself, but my feeling is that you might not. If anything, a source component might benefit, but the monoblocks will probably be better off run straight into the wall.
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Dirty AC comes primarily from the pole, not the house. Dedicated lines help isolate the stereo from appliances, dimmers, and other noise-inducing household items. Supposedly dedicated lines do not help with isolating the bi-directional digital noise of a cdp as it will work it's way back to the service panel and into other dedicated lines. But there is still much noise coming from the pole that needs conditioning. So the answer is yes. -IMO |
My 2 cents worth At my old house I had my amp plugged into wall with dedicated line and i had my pre/source plugged into line conditioner also on dedicated line and if i plugged the amp into line conditioner there was minimal differences but noticeable.Now at our new house same dedicated lines i had this "glare" issue with my setup,the bass was hollow sounding,the highs were hard etc.I plug the amp into the line conditioner and probably 70% of my problem fixed,tried a shunyata hydra and 100% of my problem fixed and further improvements.So I guess its a matter of the quality of power you are getting from the pole and trying a line conditioner I think would be the only way to tell if you need one or not. |
Stehno is absolutely correct in his description of how AC works, but before investing in much of anything else, i would try using some type of parallel line filters at each of the outlets that feed the amps. This should shunt most of the high frequency noise that is riding on the AC line that might get past the toroidal transformer in the JC-1's themselves. It will also do this without playing any type of games with current limiting. This is a very important factor when dealing with high powered high bias amps. You also won't have to deal with any extra connections between the amp & AC system, so the installation remains just as clean as it is now. It also keeps costs down by not requiring yet even more "fancy" power cords to feed the AC filters themselves. As such, it would be the most cost effective way to see if there would be any benefits to increased power line conditioning in your specific installation. Having said that, anything that you can buy or put into another chassis i.e. a power line filter, can be put into the existing circuitry of an amp. The only reason that this would not be possible would be limitations in physical space. Sean > PS... When installing parallel line filters, the effects should be relatively immediate. Having said that, it might take you a day or two to really notice their subtle but real effects on the system. As discussed in another recent thread, don't mistake high frequency artifacts ( ringing ) as "increased detail". Things might not sound quite as open or airy due to the reduction in high frequency artifacts and treble smear, but your sense of inner resolution and micro-detail will improve due to the reduction within the noise floor. The mild change in tonal balance may take a bit to get used to, but you would be stepping in the right direction. |
I have 3 dedicated lines with newly installed dedicated grounds. Since the dedicated grounds I now prefer my monoblock amps and preamp plugged directly into the wall, segregated from my digital setup which remains on the conditioner. Segregating the digital from the rest of the system was a major improvement as was the dedicated grounds. Prior to the dedicated grounds I preferred everything on the conditioner. My take is that for dedicated lines to sound their best you must also segregate the grounds from the main house ground as feedback from rest of house contaminates through grounds. Dedicated grounds may be hazardous so proceed with caution. I still want to experiment with a dedicated condtioner for the amps and preamp. |
The answer is YES! You need to filter out the dirty AC even with dedicated lines. There are several ways to do it. See the thread I posted a while back and Sean gave a web site address that talks about building a filter (it really works) and then he goes into more about grounding and filtering, etc. Happy Listening AC Info |
Denf, Dedicated power lines are definatly a huge plus, but they do not eliminate the problems associated with your local power grid or offer any voltage stabilization/protection. You must also consider the benefits of isolating individual components from each other. The Running Springs products can address and handle each of these problems. They offer voltage stabilization, filtration, isolation and component protection with non coloring - non current limiting properties. |
Denf, Dedicated power lines are definitely a huge plus, but they do not eliminate the problems associated with your local power grid or offer any voltage stabilization/protection. You must also consider the benefits of isolating individual components from each other. The Running Springs products can address and handle each of these problems. They offer voltage stabilization, filtration, isolation and component protection with non coloring - non current limiting properties. |
Denf: You might want to read this thread about power cords. Someone comments on the Hydra and the thread progresses from there. Be forewarned though, "Hydra lovers" and those thinking about switching to balanced power should proceed at their own risk : ) Sean > |
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Tvad: I've been going over that in my head all this morning. At this point in time, i think i've come up with a relatively low mass and simple to use solution ( according to theory ) to the problems you've mentioned. It wouldn't be nearly as effective as the "killer" transformer type based systems that i use and recommend, but then again, not everyone can impliment nor needs such a system anyhow. The problem is that i'm still contemplating what to do with this idea. I know that should i decide to start offering such a product, there are those that will jump up and down saying that this was my plan all along i.e. to string along the various forums, build up a reputation via visibility factor and then launch a product line. They somehow seem to forget that i've "given away" well over a half dozen years of help and constructive criticism for free in this and other audiophile forums. As such, if my goal was to make money off of the audiophile market, i would have been foolish to wait so long to do it. The fact that i've made so many "friends" amongst various reviewers / audio publications that they've threatened to sue me also wouldn't be of much help if that was my original goal. That is, you don't criticize the critics if you want to remain on their good side and receive positive support for your products. If i was trying to pave the way for future audio business endeavors, i surely wasn't going down the right road in that regards. As most of you know, i've been quite vocal in a negative fashion about specific reviews, reviewers and publications. At the same time though, i try to be fair and point out the good things that they have to offer, as those occassions arise. I'm quite certain that most of them only remember the sting of criticism though, not the pat on the back or "kudo's" that i've offered. There are reviewers that i trust and respect and most of them know who they are by now. As to your response to my comments about the Hydra, i wasn't worried about that. I know you to be both secure in your own thoughts / decisions and open minded enough to consider alternative points of view for what they are. On the other hand, there are those that either curl up in a corner and cry or those that go off on a rampage when someone criticizes a product that they like and / or own. They feel as if someone has launched a personal attack against them when the other party is simply sharing their point of view / perspective on a product or installation. I guess the differences in how well founded those vantage points are and how they are expressed is what comes into play here. I'm not good at beating around the bush, so i don't attempt to do so. For the people that are sensitive to such things and since i was commenting on what appears to be a highly respected product, those were the folks that i was warning / worried about. The fact that the comments that i've made are easily supported by the visuals that i linked to might help them better understand why i said what i did. In the past when i've done similar things though, the visible links haven't made much of a difference. Look how much of a ruckus there was over my comments about various products reviewed in Stereophile, yet all of the facts / figures were there for all to see. There was a giant fall-out over each one of them and i'm still feeling the effects for saying / doing / explaining what i did at that time. Sean > |
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Tvad: How do you recommend alternatives when you're not aware of any? If there was an alternative on the market that i was aware of, don't you think that i would have mentioned it? As you've seen in the past, i'm not afraid to point people in what i consider to be the right direction when i have faith in a product. I'm just not aware of any products that meet that criteria and that's why i built my own. Other than that, i pretty much described a plan that would work in superior fashion to that of the Hydra in that other thread. If there is a product on the market that is built like that, and i don't know about it, i'd love to find out about it. In the meantime, the other idea that i came up with today is basically a variation on that design scheme, yet even simpler and easier to produce. Since it is such a simple design, i'm not about to hand someone the torch without first considering the options and checking on the viability of such a design. Doing so would not only be stupid on my part from a business sense, it would be fool-hardy in the fact that i don't know exactly how well it will work or if it is worth recommending. Other than that, i'm not afraid of constructive criticism. Learning from my mistakes only offers me the potential to become smarter and more efficient in what i do. It is also the driving factor in the how & why i do things the way that i do, as i don't want to leave that door open. I make my living by correcting / re-designing existing electronic flaws, hence my "critical nature" : ) Sean > |
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Sean, there are those that will jump up and down saying that this was my plan all along i.e. to string along the various forums, build up a reputation via visibility factor and then launch a product line I won't listen to 'em if they do. I reckon there are always folks who project their own worst motives onto others without looking to see their own faults. The process you describe--discussion, reflection, testing ideas, thinking out loud as you help others--sounds like the creative process to me. That in this way you should discover something others want to enjoy too is a natural outcome. And deserves encouragement and congratulation, by the way. |
Sean, Thanks for referring me to this thread from my own. Your suggestion for parallel line filters at each of the outlets that feed the amps sounds great. Simple. Cost effective. Less is more. BUT, like many others, I don't want to fool around with electricity. It seems to me that if you can bundle the capacitors, the wires, proper connections, and a single outlet (Perhaps, all anchored to a sturdy face plate.) in a unit small enough to fit in the standard outlet box, then installing it could be as simple as changing an outlet. That I can do. If you choose not to manufacture a unit that implements your suggestions, then don't leave us hanging like this. Please describe the capacitors to be used and the manner of their installation, and I will pay an electrician to do the job. For me, that would be better then waiting and hoping that someone else will implement these ideas, and in the meantime waste some money on conditioners. John |
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Tvad: You are losing me in your opening line i.e. "Sean...?" Tobias ( and Denf): I was not suggesting that you build your own parallel line filters and install them in the outlet. While i had in my mind the use of something along the lines of the Audioprism Quiet Lines, Enacomm AC line filters, Blue Circle BC 86 Noisehounds, etc... I thought that i had mentioned these in my original post on the subject. As i just checked, i guess i overlooked such things. Sorry about that. As to building your own parallel line filters, some of this info was discussed in another Agon thread pertaining to AC systems. I do not recommend anyone that is not familiar with AC or the safety hazards of working with AC to mess around with any of their household wiring and / or outlets. As others that have contacted me directly for private help have found, i won't be responsible for someone getting injured or killed by being the one to suggest that they do something that is both potentially dangerous and / or illegal. If you want to take that risk, that decision will be your own without any of my influence. Having said that, i will do what i can to answer questions as best that i can, but i am not a licensed or certified electrician. Nor am i familiar with all of the various State, Federal or local codes that may apply. Just keep in mind that should something happen to your gear / personal property due to an AC related problem, your insurance policy may not cover the damages if they find sub-standard wiring or modifications to the existing AC system. Sean > |
