Xupakabras,
you're right. Micro Seiki was a real serious turntable builder, as it was EMT too. Most people who are playing with modern small concepts will not understand why these machines were far ahead the competition at those times, and maybe still are. When you look at today's market you see many copies of the fantastic MS-concept of using up to four arms with one TT.
Regarding build quality you will not find many comparable designs. Continuum is one I would like to mention but they are very expensive and their sales strategy will not support their success at the time being.
Enjoy your system which is fine - and ahem, maybe you go for an EMT in "your next musical life".
best & fun only |
By coincidence I found this article and was astonished at statements made by someone, in a way of prepotent and arrogant,referring to the Micro Seiki turntables...
This person has never had or never heard a MS turntable, or otherwise must have great hearing problem's ...What is even more complicated...
There are hundreds of audiophiles around the world, using MS turntables, which includes me, United States, Japan, Europa, etc., they must all be stupid people ...In Germany there is even a club for Micro Seiki fans...The Germans are a stupid people...Mercedes Benz,BMW,Audi, Porshe, stupid cars...
In Germany there is a person/MS fan, that makes components to support MS turntables around the world - http://my-micro.de/
I'm 60 years old, I am a professional musician, I began to play with 10 years of age, 50 years of music, I have a Bar with live music, a recording studio, I eating music!!!
My Turntable?
Special version-Micro Seiki RX-1500-G (12Kg bronze plater)
modified suspension-I personally created a rigid suspension.
Tonearms/cartridges:
Tri-Planar VII uii/ZYX Universe
VPI JMW 12.7 latest version/Dynavector XV-1s
Tonearm cable: Hovland music groove II
Phono pre-amp: Manley Steelhead II
To finalize I completely agree with the Thuchan.
By the way, as a "Hobby" I already built two turntables...and rebuild/up-grade old turntables like Pioneer, Dual, Thorens...I'm a music lover and vinyl lover 100%.
Greetings to all
Xupakabras
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Dear all,
I have mounted a second arm on my EMT table. It is an NOS EMT 997 "Banana" tonearm. As there is a 927 design carrying two arms my R 80 is prepared for only one. Therefore I had to mount an aluminium platform for taking up a Micro Seiki armboard carrying the 997.
Using my UNI-switch I am now able to change from one to the other arm.
This desicion supports using heavier carts while the light carts such as EMT Tondosen are used in the Ortofon arm.
There is an ongoing discussion which of the two tonearms, EMT 997 or Ortofon RMA 297, is the superior one? I will perform a test series to find out for myself.
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Raul-Yes. Only on heavily modulated passages you could sense a slight loss of speed or stylus drag, but in many cases you tended to overlook it because when it was on it excelled in capturing micro detail and nuance.
The Loricraft 301 motor controller helped calm the Garrard 301 motor to achieve greater speed stability, not the Technics SP 10, which is already very speed accurate.
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Dear In_shore,
you are right, I had enough time to study and experience with the EMT table.
Maybe I have to explain that this R80 machine has no inbuilt EMT phono stage. The tonearm litz goes to a docking and is connected to the Zanden phono, from there via ARC 40 Anni to the WAVACs.
In the beginning the sound was already very musical using EMT Tondosen. When I mounted an A-90 into an EMT j-shell and also changed the line cable to Audioquest Cheetah the sound improved by getting a little wider, with a more open soundstage and getting more powerful. This EMT idler is able to reproduce vinyl in a way one really dreams of - and I am usually known as a not too enthusiastic guy.
Either you use EMT Tondosen or modern MCs the sound is just great and inspiring. I would miss this table if someone convinces me to take it out of my room. I am now considering mounting a NOS EMT 997 tonearm as well. For me an EMT 927 is a real giant among the vintage turntables.
best & fun only -Thuchan |
V.E. had this topic of effect's of stylus drag last year resulting with comments by Mark Kelly and Win Tinnon.
It seem's to be a biannual debate that pop's up on every online analogue discussion site.
Thuchan
You have lived with your EMT idler for a while now,where would you place your EMT'S overall performance? |
Dear Logeen: Are you saying that in the Walker TT can we detect that speed non-stability due only by the stylus drag?
and are you saying that DD TTs like Technics needs adding " motor controler " to achieve shor time speed stability or is a misunderstood from my part?
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Logenn, The stylus&cantilever combo was obviously not
able to resist the temptation to 'show off'. Thy 'ásked' me
to correct the platter weight from 30kgr. to (about) 15 kgr. Ie we are informed that your TT has a platter of 16 kgr. So the only thing we can suggest to you is: throw away
those cleaning brushes if you still use them and use Magic
Eraser instead. Our possible death will hurt you more then us.
Regards in the name of... |
This discussion regarding stylus drag is the reason why I sold some highly regarded belt drive turntables. I could hear them slow down during heavily modulated passages.
I didn't understand what was happening until i listened to a turntable that had the drive and speed accuracy to combat the stylus drag problem.
The turntables were a Garrard 301 and Technics sp 10 Mk III; but only after they were reengineered with heavy plinths or motor controllers or both to improve upon their weaknesses. The net effect is they powered through the record with dynamics and speed accuracy much improved over my former belt drive tables.
I drew the conclusion that all belt drive tables are compromised and cannot be speed accurate or very dynamic.
So in essence the stylus drag problem forced me to travel back to reexamine the old argument of which drive system is the most speed accurate and dynamic.
Not until I recently reacquainted myself with a belt drive turntable, the Micro Seiki RX 5000, would I even look at a belt drive design. I was certain you used a DD or an Idler so long as they were in a well engineered plinth with a good speed control device. But my recent Micro Seiki experience showend me it was dynamic as hell and with the surgical string speed stable.
I was very surprised and forced to once again admit there are no absolutes and be very careful before drawing any conclusions |
|
About the 'drag' and other 'characteristic' of the stylus
cantilever combo. As a lawyer I am used to speak for those
who are not able to speak for themself. So here are two
statements in the name of the combo:
a. 'we are not sure about the platters above 30kgr. but anything below that weight is no much for us (our 'drag')'.
b. 'we are scared to death by those small cleaning brushes
and prefer the softness of the Magic Eraser. We are very
fragile and sensitive combo.'
Regards, |
Travbrow, My Kuzma Stabi Ref. has electronic speed regulation which I never adjusted because there is no need to do that. If I use the Kuzma clamp or not this has no influence on the speed. To check the speed I use the Clearaudio stroboscopic test record with the stylus on the record. BTW I check with both my tonearms : the Reed 2A ,12'' with Phase Tech P-3G and Triplanar VII with Benz Ruby 3S. Both carts with 2gr. VTF. The Kuzma has inverted bearing, the platter is 8kgr. while the total weight is 40kgr.
Regards, |
Nandric, do you adjust the speed of your turntable while playing a record? Some turntables will slow enough from stylus drag that you can see it with a strobe disk. If you think stylus drag is too small of a force to affect the sound quality that's fine, but I think it does. I think it affects the dynamics, bass and overall speed stability. |
Dear Dertonarm, 'the stylus drag is a [(if small in value)'
from 05-09-11] transformed into 'the best' which should be tamed somehow (05-12-11).
I thought the other way around:
from the cantilever 'perspective'. To my knowledge those
are usualy very thin aluminium tubes which are more often
destroyd by the cleaning proces then during the play proces. So 'the best' is obviously of much less danger for
the threatened object (cantilever). I first thought that one can use the stylus/ cantilever combo for all kinds of
other purposes: cleaning our nails or even plough the land. Ie if a cantilever can cope with all those 'drag forces' then...? So 'exaggeration' works both ways in my opinion: pro and contra.
Regards,
|
Dear Nandric, stylus drag is a resulting force related to VTF.
The actual "value" of the force in question does vary because of VTF, stylus shape, alignment, record "grip", record weight etc. - IMHO the more important point is how to tame the beast.
The Sutherland video does not take into account, that the LP itself might (does...) "slip" on the platter's surface due to the friction of the stylus. The Sutherland itself is not heavy enough to prevent that. A LP clamped down with considerable force ( by means of a Sota Reflexclamp or other similar screw action clamps which really press the record firmly to the platter ) does it still show stylus drag? Not on a servo controlled DD (Technics, Denon, Sony et al) and not on a Micro SX-8000 with a spinning 40 lbs+ platter and high inertia.
On many tt's out there, the platter doesn't work (sonically ...) the way it could, because platter and record aren't actually spinning "in line".
Cheers,
D. |
Travbrow, Wishful thinking is not an very strong argument in my opinion. I asked two times about measurements of the
'forces' ( aka 'stylus drag') involved but nobody provided any while everybody produced some 'theoretical quess'. Adding up of such conjectures is not of much help either. I
owned Garrards and DD TT's 30 years ago and know that they
can't match my Kuzma Stabi Reference. Then there is always
this proviso that 'IF' they are 'WELL DESIGNED' which however means 'REDISAGNED'. By such an 'argument' one can
always state that the TT in casu is not well redisigned.
This is called 'immunity' of an theory. Ie no way
one can refute such kind of 'arguments'.
Regards, |
I think stylus drag is important, the better the turntable deals with it the better it will sound, as long as the rest of the design is good. There is a reason why the well designed direct drives from Technics, Kenwood, Pioneer etc. and well designed idler drive designs like a modified Lenco, Garrard, EMT ect. have plenty of fans. These turntables can compete with the modern high dollar heavy platter belt drive designs. |
Jaspert. The video did not showed but it could be interesting to test what happen/differences at middle and inner grooves too.
Regards and enjoy the music,
raul. |
Dear Jaspert: No doubt about the froces involve on that stylus/LP friction ( Newton Law. ) that exist. Fortunatelly IMHO the " ears " can't detect it.
Regards and enjoy the music,
raul. |
Nandric, I do buy DT's belief system possibly as it relates to belt-drive turntables. I do not believe (and this is nothing but my personal "feeling" based on no data, which makes me just like everyone else) that the massive platter hypothesis necessarily applies to idler drive or direct drive turntables, although high platter mass is certainly not a bad thing in any case. I also love my (highly modified and non-original) Lenco and could live with it happily if I had no other turntables. Some folks on Lenco Heaven have doubled up on the Lenco platter, i.e., they use two of them stacked! Invariably these persons report an associated improvement in performance. I will never go down that road, but there may be something to it, or there may be a placebo effect. I would love to hear an EMT in my own system.
It's pretty astounding to turn on the Mk3 and see that 22-lb platter come to speed in a near instant and then stop "on a dime", as we who use dimes are wont to say. The platter may be "too light" (altho among the heaviest ever made for dd), but the complete control of it by the motor is what determines whether you like the Mk3 or not. This is not the same as the use of a massive platter on a belt-drive turntable, where inertia is king. The L07D was designed to use both factors in maintaining stable speed, a modestly powerful coreless motor drives a fairly heavy platter (made heavier in my case by the use of the optional outer ring weight made by Kenwood for the L07D in the 1980s) with sparing use of the servo mechanism.
Travis, I took some photos the other night. Have not had time to post them. |
Dear Jaspert, excellent - a few minutes video do clarify the point.
Cheers,
D. |
|
Dear Lew, There is obviously a 'weight threshold' between
us. While my platter is just a 'boy' this 'kid' is at least
twice as havy as both of your 'boys' put together. No wonder you thought about Kuzma Stabi Reference but was probable not able to resist the beauty of the slate plinth?
Regards, |
|
Oh yes, I forgot that old canard about hearing the servo at work. I guess some can hear something they don't like from certain direct drive turntables and choose to ascribe it to the servo. None of these devices is perfect. Then too, the early dd efforts might have been faulty in some cases even though working perfectly but due to design flaws. Certainly that might have been said of products lacking a quartz servo feedback mechanism. So I was naive to have inferred that dd tables as a class have flawless speed stability. Sorry for that exaggeration. I myself am not crazy about some of the dd tables that are much loved, like the low end Technics.
I just love my L07D once I installed an EMI/RFI shield under the stainless steel platter mat. Otherwise it had a slightly dulled sound that one might have said was related to servo. The L07D actually has a very novel and modern approach to the use of the servo, relying to a great degree on platter inertia, a la Dertonearm, altho the platter's mass would not suit him. The coreless motor is a big plus for the L07D, IMO. I am just this week finally listening to my SP10 Mk3 in a massive slate and cherry/baltic birch plinth. It gives a very free and open musical sound once resonance is markedly reduced by the plinth plus a mass added to the bearing housing, a la Albert Porter's plinths. Best of all, no fiddling with drive belts. |
Lewm,
No offence at all, always looking to learn & too old to worry. DD's friends have or have had that I have heard many times are the Goldmund Studio ( with custom power supply ) ( 3 of them ) , Kenwood L07D ( 2 of those ), Technics SP10 mk3 ( 2 of these ). The standard L07 laid bare speed instablility in the goldmund. The SP10 Mk 3 is the best I've heard but there is a grain or "chopped up quality" to the sound that I correctly or incorrectly ascribe to DD - dont wish to start that debate up again - just relaying what I've heard.
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Dear Nandric, there is a kind of "weight threshold" which in my experience divides the platters of turntables in the "men" and the "boys" - or the serious and the toys ...... sonic-wise.
All really "good" turntables I have heard in my life (and I have heard most all) did feature a platter weight beyond 30 lbs.
If one wants to use inertia and calculated slippage in turntable design, one will observe that it works better and better with increased weight (= usually more inertia). But besides that the higher mass has a lot of feedback resonance resistance ( by weight - and if clever designed by structural barriers).
Weight in platter is never a mistake - if your drive can handle it/can work with it to the best.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Lew, this is not my domain but if we can measure the forces involved (stylus in the groove) then we can design
a platter with such inertia wich should cure the problem.
My observation is that when the platter is on speed there is very litlle force needed to keep the platter in motion.
I also observed that many TT's have platters at around
10 kgr. Not exactly Dertonarms idea about the needed weight
but I somehow think that this is not accidental.
Regards, |
Dear Nandric, the VTF seems trivial but when you consider the very tiny area over which that downward force is distributed (the contact between LP and stylus tip), then the force per unit of area is very very large. This is not to say that I don't also have trouble with the concept. Nevertheless, all empiric and circumstantial evidence suggests it is a real phenomenon. |
Dear Dover, "direct drive"? You hear speed instability in a direct drive turntable? All of them or one or two samples? A truly vintage direct drive turntable that has not been serviced can manifest speed instability due to aging capacitors, but the technology is not in any way speed unstable per se. If you hear speed instability in a direct drive turntable or if speed is grossly unstable by observation of the typical built-in strobe, then the table is defective.
I am not qualified really to hold forth on belt creep. Instead I can recommend that you go to Vinyl Asylum and do a search on that term. Then read the relevant posts by Mark Kelly. Belt creep is not incurable, by the way, as Mark shows. But also take a look at the Artemis turntable, where the belt travels around a capstan so as to nearly fully encircle the platter, a la one remedy suggested by Mark and others. But really I did not mean to detract from your pleasure with your turntable or to infer that it cannot be fantastic just because of this theoretical issue. I apologize if you got that message. |
Dear Chris, I thought about the 'tank' instead of the elephant because I already anticipated such comment. But in literary sense this made no sense to me. But I was not able to find some military equivalent for the mouse.
This is the usual problem with methaphoric expressions because nobody can resist the chance to tease. However I deed mentioned that my speed check was with the stylus in the groove. I also asked for the data of the forces involved but this is somehow overlooked... |
Nicola - as long as the elephant doesn't see the mouse - otherwise you will have big big problems.
All manufacturers of belt drives I have owned and a current TNT with SDS - recommend checking of platter speed with stylus in the groove.
Cheers Chris |
Dear Nandric, the stylus drag is a (if small in "value") constant "brake". This loss of speed has to be taken into account. Devices like the Sutherland stroboscope do verify the existence of stylus drag. Simple cure: adjust speed WITH the stylus on the record (i.e. while stylus drag occurs).
Cheers,
D. |
My 'common sense'(aka 'not scientific') hyphothesis is:
how can a mouse (stylus) hinder an elephant (platter) in
his movement?
Regards, |
My belt & thread driven units (from two sides each) are controlled very precisely by VPI SDS steering control in conjunction with fly wheels. The R 80 motor is controlled by Dusch Multiconverter thus replacing the felt brake. You see I regard drives & speed control as very important for good analog sound.
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Lewm -
Please define belt creep. I have no slip and no stretch in the belt. I listen to heaps of classical and piano and in my previous posts I have mentioned that piano music often often lays bare wow and speed instability in turntables which is precisely why I dont do suspended decks, rubber or other stretchy belts and direct drive. But what do you actually mean by belt creep.
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Dear Dover and Raul, Dover wrote, " My turntable speed never changes so I only check it once a year or so " I am happy to hear that, but the statement is not relevant to the issue of "belt creep" and does not necessarily mean that there is no variation in platter speed at the micro level. However, if you love the sound of your tt, that's all that counts. Pay close attention to piano reproduction. The capacity of a bd turntable to accurately convey the sound of a decaying note struck on a piano is for me a measure of its goodness. Pitch should be unwavering until the note dies below the audible level. |
Raul,
Use to import Martin Logan/Apogee/Conterpoint/Conrad Johnson/Krell/MIT/Kimber/Quicksilver/Sota/Sumiko/Pink Triangle/Proac/Carnegie/Zeta/Alphason/SME and shop was agent for Linn/Roksan/Harbeth/Onix/Musical Fidelity/Townsend plus probably forgotten a few - about 20 odd years ago. Pre digital hence fairly extensive experience on the turntables from that age. Plus heaps of oddball imports for customers such as VTL, Jadis,Dynaudio etc.
Biggest learning from shop - synergy in system particularly analogue is vital and everyone hears differently. |
Dear Nandric: IMHO only an audio myth ( I mean with heavy mass TT designs. ): not proved theory.
I tested ( posted somewhere at least twice. ) that myth not with one cartridge running but with three cartridges running at the same time with no speed minute changes in different recordings and at different position in the Lps: near the spindle, outer tracks and in the middle.
Even, now that I remember, I made other tests where I changed the cartridge VTF using it at maximum ( on its specs. ), I run too a test with the motor switch-off and even with the platter with out " belt/thread " to test its time to stop.
I really made several tests, for different reasons, and the cartridge drag when in playback did not showed influence. Where I detected influence was with out motor/belt and even differences ( tiny tiny very tiny ) due to a diffrent cartridge stylus shape and VTF.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
My Kuzma Stabi Ref. has 2 motors driving the sub-platter with an single belt. I check the speed with the Clearaudio
Stroboscopic record with the stylus on the record. I am not
able to see any speed variation. The platter is 8 kgr.
I have difficulty to grasp how, say, 2 gr. stylus pressure
can influence the inertia of the platter. The belt creep I
can emagine by the start of the TT but not as caused by the
stylus pressure when the platter is 'on speed'. Some data
about forces involved? |
Dear Raul,
My mistake to expose such a dangerous post here.
I think Dover explains this precisely at his 05-04-11 reply.
Please lets pretend that the case has closed by that post, as there is not much to be said further about and we should stop walking in this mine field. Too many of us have invested great deal of money having great expectations and no more than perhaps a handfull of us can realise and accept the fact.
I apologise and I wish to stop this discussion here.
I'm sorry. |
Dear Geoch: I'm with you, the very " short time " speed stability is more important that that long year.
IMHO this characteristic in a TT is " elusive " in some BD designs and less in a DD one like your DP-80.
Regards and enjoy the music,
raul. |
Dear Geoch: Agree, speed stability in the " short time " is the main problem/target/issue for TTs and what we choose on it.
DD makes " things " really well on that subject. You DP-80 is a good example, I can't talk on the Thorens one because I never heard it in my system but I take your opinion as " mine ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear friends, To my 15 years involving experience with my (24kgr platter) Symphonic Line RG6, I can add that never I've had to re-align the speed also, but what happens to the MOMENT CHANGES in speed due to stylus friction, is another thing of a great concern. This Shutherland laser equiped clamp can not evaluate this, but you can hear it happens during playing, as like the LP is warped or the spindle hole is off centered. Auditioning the same LP with my DP80 then, and TD124 II now, I can not detect this momentary speed instability. I've lost my faith & I'm trying to get rid this TT as I could'nt find a solution for 15 years of changing strings, bearing oils, PSU inner parts, platter mats, bases e.t.c
Now, please don't get me wrong. I don't want to provoke against the BD approach, but it seems that the point of real concern is not the speed change over a period of a year.
Thank you. |
Dear Dover, agreed. Surgical silk, bavarian sewing linen (no joke !), dyneema - there is a good selection of natural as well as artificial materials providing excellent string/thread for turntable use. The general idea behind planned/wanted/calculated slip in a drive working with high inertia is most tempting and - if carefully applied - works excellent and with outstanding sonic results (extreme authority, inner silence and superb micro dynamics).
It is a nice example of using physic in a smart way and letting it do it's work.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Dover: +++++ " My turntable speed never changes so I only check it once a year or so " ++++++
for a BD: WoW!, this speaks a lot of your overall TT design, build quality and excecution of the design. Not many BD TTs I know can share that statement and I know MS can't match it.
I readed somewhere that you was an audio distributor/dealer ( right? ) and I would like to ask: when was that? and which " names " do you carry on?. Thank you.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Hi Lewm,
Belt creep is definitely an issue - rubber belts stretch, with string drive you need something that doesn't - cotton stretches badly, I have found surgical silk doesn't at all. My turntable speed never changes so I only check it once a year or so. The only times I've had to adjust it is when I have knocked the potentiometers on the sine wave generator when cleaning. |
Hi Win, If you are still out there, did you mean to imply that belt creep does not occur with string drive (or with the use of other materials that presumably do not "stretch")? I thought Mark Kelly's analysis suggested that belt creep in a conventional belt drive tt, (where the motor is stationed at some distance from the platter and there is no re-routing of the belt by use of a capstan), is inevitable. I take no position pro or con, but what now puts me off of belt drive turntables is this variable that is left to each individual user of a bd turntable with an outboard motor: each user is responsible for the tension in the belt, which can even change from day to day due to vibration, etc. And belt tension would seem to be a major determinant of speed stability (due to belt creep, slippage, etc). So we try to fix that by using a gigantic and massive platter. It requires too much fiddling for me.
I have a good friend who just acquired a very expensive belt drive and tonearm. He invited me over for a listen. He is using a record weight with a built in strobe, so as to allow constant monitoring of platter speed. The sound was excellent but the experience was maddening. Commanded by the drifting of the strobe light, my friend was up out of his seat adjusting the motor about every 2 minutes, in order to keep the damned strobe stable. Turned out he did have a problem with his 3-phase AC synchronous state of the art motor controller, but still... |
Dear Dover: I owned that 13D but with stock body, very nice performer.
If you like the Shure cartridge ( as back-up ) then try to find a 140HE, recommended.
Btw, whom is your source cartridge re-tip?
regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Thuchan: Deal, but something that disturbing me a little is: what could you do with out your beloved great audio system? where your " life " goes? and after my opinion no one will be interested to buy it.
No, I think is better that I be there with out given my MS opinion: don't you think?, our hobby is not only an important part of your and my life but a critical one.
Btw, seriously for all of us: what if our each one audio system suddenly " disappear " and we can't any more enjoy music at home like today? how could affect you this hipothetic " fact "? do you already thinked?
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
