Favorite 300B: Sophia vs KR

Swampwalker,
Al makes a very good point concerning the 'ma' value can very under different test conditions or machine used.
My Takatsuki spec sheet said my tubes ma is 66.6 for both tubes. My friend has a digital tube tester and measured my tubes at 75.4 ma.

Markus I`m really happy the Takatsuki worked out for you. They`re a lot of money but I felt the level of your system would exploit this brilliant tube`s quality.

Has anyone been able to compare the Takatsuki with 1950 WE's?

I've just managed to purchase some 1950 WEs. After they arrive and they have run for a couple of weeks I can try and do a comparison between my Takatsuki that I have had since September.

Simmo2741,
I believe many of us would appreciate a comparison such as this. One of the very best current production 300b tubes and what`s likely the gold standard 'early' Western Electric 300b tubes, should be interesting.

Simmo2741

Would you be so kind to let us know your earlier impressions please, Takatsuki vs WE's I mean.

THX

Hi, they are shipping from the US to Singapore so will take a week plus to get here but I'll will post something after the first listen

I thought I`d post an update now that I`ve had these tubes awhile(over 150 hours). If anything my admiration has grown, this Takatsuki 300b is an extraordinary tube. It`s overwhelming strength is reproducing music in a completely 'natural' and pure manner.There`s just minimal if any electronic artifact present. In audiophile terms it`s really perfectly balanced from bass to the highest frequencies.Space,ambience,ultra resolved, 3-D presence with air,superb soundstaging and image density are top tier. But what is more important(to me) and more elusive is how it just connects you emotionally and simply won`t let go. This tube is all about getting to the core/essence of music.

The tone/harmonics/overtones with acoustic instruments and human voice is the best I`ve experienced in home audio so far.It combines utter refinement with vivid energy and dynamic authority that`s unmatched in my experience. It`s very difficult to bring a listening session to an end,very difficult. A good 300b amplifier with this tube is a special experience.
Regards,

Charles1dad,

what driver tubes are you using?

Thanks

Antigrunge,
My amplifier came with General Electric 6EM7 1950s vintage.

Ok, thanks

In my Wavac EC300B on WE437 and Tungsol KT66s into Duevel Bella Luna omnis the Takatsukis are by far the best in microdynamics, soundstage depth and overall neutrality. The EATs are more ballsy but less subtle, if one listens to rock music predominantly, one might actually rate them more punchy and ahead. But on classical and jazz (solo piano anyone?) the Takatsukis are eerily quiet and balanced with lots more air around individual instruments. The EATs are about 18 months old, the Takatsukis are about 6 months old. I have not tried the Royal Princesses.

Antigrunge,
Excellent question; and even though this thread is about 300b tubes, the small tubes and their influence on power tubes should probably be addressed. Like Charles1dad, all my small tubes are old, scarce and expensive. But if you’re contemplating any of these very expensive 300bs, please spend the requisite time and energy and yes...money on the small tubes to get the best out of these very expensive 300b tubes. You wouldn’t put run of the mill tires on a Bugatti.

Phaelon,
You `re so right. My amp`s builder Israel Blume says the driver tube selection is critical to the output tube`s performance.He picked the 6EM7 specifically for it`s high current drive capacity(this driver tube can put out 2 watts of power on it`s own per Israel).

True to their word, the new Takatsuki TA-300b prices are posted as either 133,400 or 140,070 yen. It is hard to figure out the improvements; but using Google translate of a press release, there seem to be improvements in quality control and tolerances.

It is hard to determine what or if there are any 'sonic' improvements. To my understanding there are`nt any 'internal' changes to the tube. Time will tell.

I hope to visit Amtrans in July with someone who speaks Japanese. Even if there are sonic improvements, I am not sure that I would be able to tell. Perhaps they are predicting better longevity?

Gsm18439 if you are heading to Japan consider going to Sun Audio to get the tubes, I cant speak a word of Japanese but they were really helpful and entertained me and my wife for about an hour showing of their systems and did me a fair price on the tubes. The younger guy who works there speaks ok English

It was also easy to find from the station!

Looks like another case of charging whatthe market will bear: they must have huge demand and be unable to cope. Good to see, though that quality sells.

WE revival anyone?

Simmo: Amtrans and Sun Audio are near each other. If you do not mind my asking, what price did you pay for the TA-300b pair?

Gsm18439 - drop me an email (add @gmail.com to my username) and I'll let you know

Antigrunge,
You make a good point(regarding what the market will bear).I`ll say this, at least in this case Takatsuki came through with a product that lives up to the high cost.
So often this is`nt the case(particularly high end audio).Every time I listen to my music(very often) I realize this tube was worth it. You could easily spend the cost of these(or far more) tubes on cables/cords and maybe or maybe not get this level of improvement.

Alternatives? theRP will get you close for 1200.00 USD.
Old stock W.E. 2500 AND upwards(may be better? or just different) but no warranty (Takatsuki has a 2 year warranty).Some less expensive tubes sound good but won`t compete at this level.

I assume most folks interested in this thread and own 300b amps fall deep into the pure natural sound-music lover camp(like me). If that`s true then if you want maximun performance from your amplifier this is certainly money(a lot)well spent.Fortunately 300b tubes(in general) have considerable longevity.
Regards,

Another alternative that no one has mentioned is the Psvane WE Tribute 300b that is sold by Grant Fidelity. They are supposed to be a clone.

My Takatsuki's are at the 80 hour mark and continue to improve. This tube does not behave like other power tubes I have owned. Most have a period or a break in cycle at which point the sound is not optimum until a significant amout of hours are logged. These tubes have sounded absolutely stellar right out of the box and continue to improve in my system. Absolutely worth the bucks in my opinion.

Markus, After my very first session with these tubes I wrote Israel Blume and said that he really should find a way to hear the Takatsuki in his(pride and joy creation) Frankenstein amplifier.I know he`s quite fond of the Black Treasure(for good reason). I tried to express to him how much better the Takatsuki is.He said he`d check into them. I hope he does and was`nt just being polite with his response to me.As you said in an earlier post the change is profound.
Regards,

"I tried to express to him how much better the Takatsuki is.He said he`d check into them. I hope he does and was`nt just being polite with his response to me.”

Charles1dad,
LOL! I did the same thing and got the same response from the distributor of my NAF when I found the Royal Princesses. He was just being polite. I hope Israel takes keen to your suggestion. IMO, prospective buyers of any good 300b tube amplifier should be offered, or at least be made aware of, this upgrade potential.

The Western Electric's arrived today. So here is an initial view, I am not very good at explaining this stuff but I'll try.

I am using a Tron discovery & Tron Seven pre. Speakers are Avantgarde Duos.

I started out with EML 300b's (standard ones) based on the recommendation of the amp designer and used them for about 1 year, when I got the takatsuki's last September they really improved everything better/higher treble, deeper tighter bass. They seemed to bring out more detail in the music. They were definitely a worthwhile upgrade.

The only negative I would have for them was that on one or two songs, there were a couple of sections when listing with the EMLs that they had that magical creamy texture to the music, the kind of thing where you get goosebumps from listening to it and how great it sounds (e.g the guitar part in a kings of convenience song called 24-25 at about 2:30 was one of them)the takastuki didn't seem to give you that magic on those songs but improved everything else.

Going from the takastuki to the WE's that magic is straight back but its so much better it is there on every song! It has the same bass extension as the takastuki's but it isnt as detailed as the takastuki. They are very musical and engaging.

I'm really enjoying going through all my music and re-listen to it with these tubes.

Simmo2741

Thank you very much for your impressions, great 300B's collection!
I know about that magic feeling you have been describing, this is exactly what draw me away from tubes I mentioned on this thread, they just don't have that and didnt sound natural in my system.

Anyway, will be nice to read more of your posts later.

Enjoy!

THX

Simmon solid state sounds better to you then something is wrong. I never had that magic with solid state.

Thanks to all of you for your participation in this valuable thread. I am enjoying all of the comments and posted some earlier and will only say the Takasuki's are still my favorite with my amp. thus this comment is a bit off course and adds nothing to the fact of any further sound re-inforcement of these tubes.

Since we are all talking so much about the high cost of these tubes (along with the great sound) I will share with
you that my amp. designer (Gary Dews from England) gave me a hint that in his experience (and some of his long-time customers) he has noted an "increased" life to any 300b tube if you have an adequate way to cool them......obviously this makes total sense.

He suggested I pick up a low voltage/low noise fan that is capable of moving some air from the back of the amplifier and blow onto the tubes. I thus have purchased a small computer tower type fan (4 X 4 X 1 inch) that is rated at very low noise and plan on configuring it (in an easily removeable way) on the back base of my amplifier to blow air across the tubes when in use to move air. My little fan is rated at 33DB noise and 56CFM so we will see. I also picked up a 72 inch power cord that has an variable speed control for the fan.

Everything I have read states you have to be 3-4 feet anyway to even hear it running so we will see. The key hear is to get one that moves some air yet is rated very low noise and they are out there and mine will be adjustable.

No offense but I paid $20 bucks for this experiment and what could it possibly hurt? The little fan is supposed to be here soon and if nothing else it will ease my guilt of trying to extend the life of the 300B tube which is a topic in itself.

Some of you might think I am lost in the wilderness but maybe some of you have already experimented and it would be nice to know if so.

Gwalt,
Your plan makes sense to me. The builder of my amp designed the circuit to be as he says "very easy" on the 300b tubes to greatly extend their lifespan. He alo used large over-speced transformers. Even when the amps are on 12-16 hours the transformers are warm but never hot to touch at all.
I hope the fans work out for you.

Jwm was you post aimed at mine? I never mentioned solid state? My equipment is all tube based.

Charles1dad:

Thanks for the reply. I forgot to mention I have no real detection of running the tubes hard in the circuit as I think both of our amps. qualify as over built.

My transformers do not even get warm to the touch after 12 hours but the base of the tubes are warm and I think the theory is if you keep the tubes cooler you tend to re-tard the damages that internal heat can do.

I run the tubes @ .68ma which is considered approximately 65%-70% of full output.

It's been noted that the participants of this thread have laudably avoided engaging each other in divisive battles of defensiveness. I think that’s due, in no small part, to Charles1dad’s leadership role. I’m saying this because I don't want anyone to think that this is a response to the consensus that Takatsuki is superior to the Royal Princess. I’ve never heard the Takatsuki’s so I can’t speak to that at all. But I’ve decided to share something that I wasn’t going to share because I thought it it might sound like some kind of sour grapes. That, and the fact that it just seems goofy to me. It’s simply this: The Royal Princesses have a very, very long break-in period and RP buyers will have to be extremely patient to hear these tubes at anywhere near their best. We’re not talking about the kind of break-in where you’re almost there after a 100 hours with only subtle improvements to follow. I bought these tubes in February 2011. I wish I had logged usage hours but I’m going to estimate fifteen hours a week. Last month there was a unexpected and startling improvement in my system’s performance - I did not jump to the conclusion that it was the tubes. I think we’ve all experienced those inexplicable “good music days”. But after a week of listening to CD after CD, the fact is, that there was an unmistakable and very significant improvement in detail, resolution, and coherence, particularly noticeable in the lower mid-range and upper base (sorry fellas, I can’t speak to real base because my speaker’s frequency response starts rolling off below 50Hz). I haven't changed or altered anything in my system or room since inplimenting the RPs. I reluctantly called Richard Wugang at Sophia - reluctantly because I thought it was nuts to think there might be a really significant improvement after all this time. I asked him if it was possible to have real break-in occur at 800-1000 hours. He said it was possible but very unlikely to take quite that long. But he elaborated that there are other influences, for instance, the duration of the listening sessions and the amplifier’s demand on the tubes. Richard went on about carbon plate vs. metal plate break-in. He said the RP carbon plate typically needs a minimum of 400-500 hundred hours in a SET application and considerably more in a push-pull (big "ah-ha!" moment since my amp is a push-pull). He admitted that it’s been a problem getting customers to demonstrate that kind of patience, but that when they do, he will put these tubes up against any 300b on the market including the Takatsuki which he claims benefits from a relatively short break-in period. That of course is where that subjective thing comes in. But the one thing that I can definitely verify about the Royal Princesses, is that after 13 months of nearly daily use, there’s been a startling improvement in all of the music I’m playing. Once again, the intention of this post is, in no way, meant to rebut the magnificent reports on the Takatsuki 300b - I believe every word of them. I just want to alert those, who more recently purchased the Royal Princess’s, that the best is yet to come.

Phaelon,
You raise a crucial point, there are just so many variables involve when trying to evaluate{fairly) and compare tubes or components in general.I was highly impressed with the RP in my system(as I tried to express earlier). If the Takatsuki breaks-in much sooner than the RP that`s an obvious advantage toward the Takatsuki when comparing new versions of both.Although I did have a bit more preference for the Takatsuki,I could except the fact that when'fully' broken-in these two elite 300b tubes could very well be equals.Phaelon I certainly don`t doubt what you are hearing now with the RP.
Regards,

Sorry and with all respect guys, but who needs the tubes that have to be burned for 500-800 hours, are you kidding me? How many hours these tubes have left then? If they have 2000-3000 ( just an indication ) hours to live in total, well, 800 hours is way to long, imo.

Phaelon,

Many thanks for your post, this may change my mind about them, cos my pair have had 100+ hours only, however I don't believe that all feedbacks/reviews that been wrote about RP's, were based on pairs with that long break in, so, the question is, what kind of reviews are they then?

And for Sophia guys, they should mention that on their website, imo

THX

Maxmad, I agree 800 hours is crazy.

Hello Maxmad,
I wonder if the Coincident and Cary amplifiers differ enough to cause a difference of opinion with various tubes. Or could it simply be our different pair of ears? The RP did`nt impress you much yet I found them to be top tier in the 300b hierarchy. If they do improve as Phaelon has discovered then they are one of the very best 300b available IMO. I know longevity is amp depedent but 300b tubes last quite a while(perhaps 5000-8000 hours or more).

Opinions are all over the map when you read different forums concerning tubes.Someone will say the 'old stock' W.E. is superior to the EML, then another will resopond and state "in my amp the EML was clearly better than the old W.E." This goes on and on, with the number of variables involved it`s no surprise. For example, many people love the 'reissue' W.E. 300b but it was quite a disappointment in my amplifier. In your Cary amp or to your ears this tube may be great. At the end of the day it is pure subjectivity just as Phaelon pointed out.

Regards,

Charles1dad

Don't get me wrong, this thread is one of the best you can come across these days anyway and I am glad folks have the ability to share some of their collections I done have as well. How many people can compare differ 300Bs? Most of the guys just buy one brand available today and that's it, so, how possible for them to know? It's very expensive, but also very tricky, cos if you don't buy from trusty source, you can get lots of troubles, especially used.

Actually, I was referring to commercial reviews and not the one that been posted up here.

There is an possibility that I am going to try RP's again, but I am not sure yet.

THX

Does anyone know the expected lifespan of a 300b? Is it the same for the RP and the Takatsuki?

Gsm18439

I know of 2 manufacturers only who were open about the lifespan of their tubes and these are WE and AVVT. Not sure about WE's, but AVVT stated 40.000 hours.

Western Electric would usally say 'up' to 40000 hours with the old stock versions. I`ve seen a number of post where owners have used their 300b tubes(various brands) for 8-10 years and they still tested strong.Specifically regarding the RP and Takatsuki I don`t know.

Maxmad, JWM,

I agree that 800 hours is a long time but, just to reiterate, in the more typical SET application, expect 400-500 hours - yes, still a long time, but the journey was not at all unpleasant. Remember, I was enthusiastic about the RPs right out of the box. For me, this was a nice surprise. Also, I’m trying to be optimistic about the long break-in and am hoping it’s a sign of extra longevity.

Maxmad, if the RPs don’t appeal to you at all, I doubt if the additional break-in will change your mind. I think that Charles1dad is probably correct when he suggests that they might not be the ideal match with your amps. But I certainly hope they improve sufficiently so that you at least feel that you got your money’s worth.

I have heard different stories that tubes can still test strong after many hours (5000 plus) but loose their life in sound. I think I have discovered this with a pair of 45 tubes that were driven "softly" by a Korneff amp. yet sounded dull (on horns) after 2 years and logging many hours. A quick check in the Hickock 600A showed a lot of life but a change to some similar tested pair brought back the life in the music. The tubes with a lot of hours still test swell today but sound soft. Not only this but some designers will tell you the same...so I think you have to trust your listening skills and have another pair to compare.
In my heart I have to believe if you get 5000-8000 hours on output tubes you might be doing good.....40,000 hours is non-sense IMO. I am glad that Phaelon mentioned this because I had no where near 150 hours on my RP tubes...maybe they are asleep yet?
My little fan idea gave me a piece of mind that it is the best I can do to extend the life by trying to cool the tubes. Once I connected the variable voltage cord and turn to ultra slow speed I cannot detect the fan running at 2 feet away but the tubes run much cooler...on the outside at least.
There are so many experiments going on in my man-cave I cannot keep up with them all.

Not sure that I understand how "tubes can still test strong after many hours (5000 plus) but loose their life in sound. .. "

From my own experience I know only 2 types of tubes that sounded freaking good, while they tested poor.

1 NOS Tung Sol 6550 Black Smooth plates

2 NOS GEC KT88

I owned quads from both at the same time and in each quad was 1 tube that tested poor, but they sounded great. How possible? Don’t know, it's all beyond me, probably the quality is so high that they still perform until they really die.

THX

Gwalt don`t know that the 40,000 hour claim by AVVT and W.E. is true or not. What are you really buying with these 'old stock' tubes that still test well? you won`t ever really know their true history of use. It`s a risk some are willing to take at ultra high prices(W.E.). I`d rather go with a new RP or Takatsuki with a warranty but of course to each their own.
Maxmad, you raise an interesting point. There are 'some' tubes that test weak yet sound good.Tubes can be a fasncinting mystery.

Charles1dad I agree with my NOS 45's you never know the history and only test how high the microbos/ma rating goes on your tester and if they are quiet with no shorts etc. I am only relating my experience with 45's (not 300b tubes) purchased on EBAY @ $100-$150 per pair on a simple made tube in a simple circuit from sellers with stellar feedback and experience with tubes. I had put a lot of hours on the ones that sounded soft in the end and got my $100 out of them. Current production 45's I tried were quickly sold off in favor of NOS.
I think you have a lot more to risk in the NOS 300b tube with WE prices (not for me) and lack of any warranty and totally agree on that. For me I guess I would like to hear more from someone who has the extra long 300b tube life chime in with their experiences. I had two long time manufacturers tell me the same thing. Anyone out there with over 10,000 hours on a 300b tube that would care to share? I would love to know what to expect for the price we are paying for the tubes.

Does anyone else have experience with the new Psvane WE replica?
I am trying to decide between those, the RP's, and the Takatsukis.
I use the same amp as Charles1dad so I am sure I would enjoy the
Takatsukis, but I am a sucker for luscious warm midrange which has
me interested in the WE replica. Not sure if the RP's would be too hifi
sounding for my taste. Right now I am using the Psvane 300b-t which I
love and the AVVT 32b-sl. The AVVT is great for rock but it is a little
lacking in midrange magic to my ears. Any opininons appreciated.
George

Auntjenof2,
The RP in the Frankenstein is`nt remotely 'hifi' at all.Both will provide beautiful organic warmth that`s utterly natural. Neither tube will provide an over emphasized(colored) warm character,just pure and natural tone-body.If you want added lush and warm presentation, the RP and Takatasuki will disappoint you. I `ve no comment on the Psvane W.E. replica.

"Any opininons appreciated.”

Since you put it that way, I’ll give you my two cents worth. Unlike Charles1dad, I can’t make tube comparisons, but I’d like to comment on your concerns about the Royal Princess's. While I don’t have your same amplifier, I do have an amp that I think is very capable of discerning the subtle differences between tubes, and IMO, the RPs are not audiophile in the pejorative sense. I consider myself a music lover and I’m very sensitive to that audiophile sound that I believe you’re speaking of. Regarding "luscious warm midrange”, I suppose that’s subjective, but I will stick my neck out and say that you will not find the RPs cold and analytical. I’m not advising you, I’m just offering my opinions.

Thanks for the responses, makes me feel better about the RPs.
Spoke to Rachel at Grant Fidelity. She says in critical listening the
Psvane WEs are better than my Psvane 300b-t.

Auntjenof2

Pity you are selling the beautiful AVVT's as well, cos after 100 hours they will open up very nicely and will sound much better.