My Rogue Cronus recently blew a slow blow fuse. I was surfing to find a replacement. The stock fuse is a typical metal end cap, glass and "wire" fuse. The audio emporiums only seemed to offer these $39 German gold plated end wunderkinds. I finally found "normal" fuses from a guitar amp site. Has anyone tried the uber fuses and found the sound better? Hard to understand how it could be. Thanks for any thoughts.
I loved 8 track....you could hear some of the other program material bleeding through during track changes and part of me always wondered exactly what WAS going to come on next! Those were the days my friends; Chunky, clunky and funky.
Newbee- I agree 100% with everything you stated(whether the devil made you do it or not): If you've tried whatever is being promoted for yourself. you've earned the right to your opinion- good, bad or indifferent. In reality the 8 track tape wasn't really completely worthless. It was so bad that it prompted people to search for something better, and that was an intrinsic value.
Newbee, not too judgemental, I think you captured exactly the situation. Now, I just got the Irrational But Efficacious! system enhancement disc from Ayre....
Here we go again! If you don't try it for yourself- How will you EVER know, or be able to offer a valid opinion? VERY simple! These threads can end up so much like a Mobius Strip(or perhaps 8 track tape would be more apropos).
Too bad we can't tell from the manner in which an opinion is given whether or not the opinion has any value beyond that of a classic testimonial. Some folks seem to be pre-disposed to hearing differences embodied in most tweaks and some think all tweaks are ineffective, for what ever reason. Some times folks think DBT's tell all and they don't. But just becauce they don't some folks feel that gives them the upper ground when making purely subjective opinions.
The only up side benefit of hearing all of the endless (so it seems at times) discussion between the advocates and the nay-sayers is that folks who are capable of independent thought quickly learn who the assholes are and, in the future, save the time that they would have expended reading their posts.
For my part, if I want to hear if a tweak works I'll buy it and see for myself. If I think it won't make a difference I won't waste my time just because some self proclaimed expert sez I'm deaf, dumb, or underequipped, nor will I feel obliged to announce to the world my lack of appreciation if I do try it, unless of course the source of the opinion is a merchant trying to perpetuate a fraud on the unsuspecting merchant.
Too judgmental by a mile, perhaps even unwarranted, but the devil made me do it........:-)
I don't see the connection between one thinking DBT may be a valid form of evaluating differences (I'm not claiming it is or isn't - don't know) and "the everything-sounds-the-same affinity". I don't think everything sounds the same, not in the least, but I also think somethings don't make a difference. One wonders if it is possible for something not to make a difference and yet many may claim to hear a (significant, worthwhile)difference. How does one account for that? I don't know, but I suspect it happens and there is apparently no scientific way to prove it.
Mt T- To me music is the ONLY thing that matters, anything else is secondary. That's been the case since I was a teenager learning to play guitar and operate sound equipment. In my way of thinking(reasoning or logic)- If my system doesn't provide an accurate representation of what went on at the recording event(music and venue), I need to find out why and correct it. Yes- I do remember you and your son. My system has drastically evolved since your visit, and I think of you(wondering what your reaction would now be) whenever I play the 'Dead Can Dance' cuts that you so enjoyed then. I do believe your jaw would drop now.
Rodman, I caught the part that it was only important to YOU. Just looking for some logic behind the concept. You may say listening to and feeling music is not logical and I would agree. But the reproduction of music through electronic media is entirely logical. Coke and Pepsi was an analogy you seemed to miss. BTW, look through your feedback. Do you remember me?
Mt T: Further, I'm certain that you must see more "relevance" to Coke and Pepsi in a discussion concerning music reproduction, fuses and audio equipment than that of the sounds/nuances of live music. Perhaps you could enlighten me? Is there a mirror in your house?
Mt T: If you'll take the time to actually read my post you'll note that I stated, "That opinion will be totally and completely lacking in merit to ME", and that I was addressing DBT in general. There are a multitude out there that share the everything-sounds-the-same affinity and they can chase whatever Grail they choose. My judgements as to whether a component change affects my system's sonics in a beneficial way are based solely on whether said change brings me closer to the real thing(music), which the fuses under discussion did to another degree. Taken in the context of my other posts in this thread: My points were really quite relevant and self-explanatory.
As far as DBT: What knowledge do have that either of the persons involved have any experience with live music, or any experience/training with regards to critical listening?
Rodman, the DBT was in reference to how fuses affect an amp's sonics. Please explain what live music listening experience has to do with noting a difference in amps with or without these fuses. I can understand where that experience would benefit if we were talking about comparing a jazz trio in the room with a recorded version of that jazz trio. Just not sure what relevance it has to do with the fuse discussion. Please enlighten me.
You guys are lucky. The best I can do is to sit in first two rows in the center. The direct sound dominates over the awful amplifiers and reverb used in the University's auditorium.
OOPS- My bad!! That money is being spent at Sonoma State U., and they are modeling their new hall after the Seiji Osawa Hall. I guess you're going to stay stuck with what is purportedly one of the best halls in the country. I've never heard the Boston Symphony Orchestra, or been to Tanglewood, so- I can't comment. I have heard many Bose systems though, so THAT idea's still scary! LOL
Mr E- Don't write the main "Shed" off completely. Hopefully whenever the $110M upgrade/renovation is completed, you will have a venue in which you can enjoy both live acoustic and amplified music without reservation. It's scary that the concerts sound better through Bose speakers!! =8^O
Rodman99999..."acoustic jazz" you said. Exactly my point. At nearby Tanglewood (BSO summer music site) the Osawa hall is a relatively small venue designed specifically for chamber music and the like, and is completely acoustic. But the main "shed", where Beethoven holds forth, is electronicly amplified. I only attend if I am offered free tickets because the concerts, which are broadcast on a good local FM station, sound lots better on my home system. Even on the Bose :-)
Mr E- This past weds. nite I enjoyed an evening of acoustic jazz, performed by a quartet of local musicians, hosted by the University of Indianapolis(http://www.county29.net/cms2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17251&Itemid=99999999). A specially designed room of excellent acoustics, and seating tiered to enable all attending a balanced perspective, without someone's head "shadowing" the sound. Granted- much of what is available out there is amplified and in less than perfect venues, but there is also much available to those that really love music. That music is amplified DOES NOT indicate that it has to be other than natural. There are many of us who maintain the goal of presenting music to the audience(live or recorded) unaltered except for the DB level. Great pains are taken(by those that have the means and desire) to insure this is accomplished by way of proper hall design, careful selection of sound reinforcement equipment, and staffing with people that have taken the time to train their hearing to recognize acoustic anomolies. Of course: Even in a live venue there will be many different perspectives depending on where one is seated. BUT- Exposure to the real thing will always give an individual a fresh window through which to view his/her own system/listening room/music. That there are large numbers of people that don't bother with live music, and only compare audio equipment with audio equipment doesn't bother me in the least. What goes on in their listening environment is their business. For me(again) anything that brings my home experience closer to the recording session is well worth the effort or expense. To avert the next response: Yes I do have recordings, personally done, that I can tap as a reference. If those are faithfully reproduced, I am confident that I'm hearing what is recorded on the media I'm playing accurately. There will be the ubiquitous variables between other performances/recordings and my speakers, but I've sought to remove as many as possible in my own system. That the fuses in question allow for a more "natural" presentation of music has prompted me to invest in more. Anyone that has a similar love for music, discerning ears, and a resolving system in their home would do well to try them.
Rodman99999...Most "live" music these days is electronicly amplified and delivered using loudspeakers. Even Opera, where the Diva may wear a mic. Classical chamber music and jazz may be the exception.
So it is not unreasonable to prefer one's own speakers.
Tvad, since most live music events use amplifiers in poor rooms, I tend to agree, but I would not go so far as to suggest that live music is unobtainable and that we should be happy with good music reproduction rather than realism. I typically do not have access to quality performances so it thrills me to have such performances well captured on my system. That is always my quest.
Mr Tvad- Anyone that is not intimately familiar with live music and all it's nuances may have any opinion they choose and that's fine with me. That opinion will be totally and completely lacking in merit to me, however, as that is what my experience and judgements rest on with regards to reproduction. Just like anyone that has not experimented with an item (of any description) to see whether it does, or doesn't do, what's claimed(in my opinion) has no opinion but an abysmally empty one! But- I live in America and have fought for the rights we have to voice our opinions(empty or not). Happy listening!
Rodman99999 says it well! I wonder how many audiophiles are grounded in the sense of having experienced live music on a regular basis and or have had the opportunity to experience various venue acoustics. The room your in is the main component of your system. Charles Hansen is doing just such a demo, illustrating how a cheap stereo can sound better than a high end rig given a better acoustical environment. The fuses add more acoustic pixelation to the music...clarity, energy and tonality all improved.
Room treatments are not a "tweak". Your room/system interface is one of the most important things(actually the biggest component) you can possibly address when setting up. This has always been true whether regarding a home listening room or live music venue, and the first thing I've attended to(professionally, or at home) since the 80's. A lousy system has a better chance of sounding good in a properly sent up venue than an excellent system in a poor one. As far as DBT: What knowledge do have that either of the persons involved have any experience with live music, or any experience/training with regards to critical listening? Why would I give any credence to a report from someone that may never listen to actual music, or have any idea of what it sounds like(ala Julian Hirsch)?The fuses we are supposed to be discussing in this thread have never been recommended for replacing those in speakers(as far as I've read). Therefore- I'd have to ignore any remarks as to whether they are efficacious in that capacity. They are designed to provide the greatest benefit when placed in the power supply(AC input or DC rails). In these circuits, I've found the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses to increase the "organics" of my system's reproduction. IE: Vocals sound more human, I can perceive the wood resonance in double bass, piano and drum better. the air column in a closely mic'd sax is audible(the list could go on). To me the realism gained by installing the fuses is well worth the price of admission.
Well I do prefer Coke to Pepsi. Remember the Pepsi challenge from years ago? Even though I have always preferred Coke when I took the challenge I thought the Pepsi was better.
Kind of like listening to a set of super detailed speakers recommended by Stereophile at a dealer. They sound wonderful in the shop. When you get them home you are amazed at how much more you're hearing. After running them in for a few months you realize they're driving you out of the room with harsh treble. Pretty soon you notice you are spending less time listening and don't miss it. Time to list them on Audiogon. Seriously, been there done that.
A friend of mine replaced the in line fuse on his BAT VK31SE with a maget non fuse I lent him..One fuse nothing else,he said it was a dramatic difference, his teenage son agreed. So did his bird who has an open cage and flys about.Seems that when my friend plays his usual course of music that the bird reacts more alertly and with more frequent and louder vocal outbursts. Same music same hifi no more 28 gauge wire connecting a preamp to the local electrical vendor. Whether skin or feathers were worn both were startled by the difference. Tom
My audio philosophy in a nut shell. Components sound different. Room treatments are the most significant tweak. Beauty is in the ear of the beholder. We don't all have the same level of audio awareness. Audio DBT does not prove audible differences are there or not. They only prove the differences could or could not be detected under the test conditions. Ok, so here's my problem with tweaks. If I set a can of Coca Cola on the table next to my listening chair it DOES affect the sound waves in the room. In some way it has to. Agree? Can I hear the difference? No I can't. Can you hear the difference? Maybe. Your sonic awareness may be that good. Can you prove it? I don't really care unless there is a wager involved. Guess which bet I'd take. Ok so here's where I draw the line. There are people who not only claim they can hear a difference with that can of coke, they also claim they whether it was a can of coke or Pepsi! Not only do they hear a difference, they have a definite preference!!
Interesting finding - but of course we're talking fuses here, and your talking no protection at all.
Confounding this entire topic is the use of contact enhancers like Walker SST and Quiksilver on the end of fuses, both standard and premium variety.
This would also raise the question is a standard fuse with contact enhancer better than a premium fuse without?
I can try this test at some point since I have a jar of Quicksilver.
The problem is that according to the literature it takes some time to break in, due to the oil based carrier.
Having played with QUicksilver, I have not heard a difference once applying and listening again. But of course they back up their product with actual conductance tests, so I feel the science is sound.
A friend who made me some AC cables saw the QUicksilver I brought over to coat the ends of the AC wire before inserting into the AC plug, and he told me that gold paste is a commonly used item in high tech industries to enhance conductivity.
WIth that in mind, I don't care if I actually hear an immediate difference.
The theory is sound and makes intuitive sense.
If a tweek or series of tweeks in inexpensive enough (relative to the high cost many of us have invested) then I don't mind if say out of the 10 tweeks I do, 3 of them may be excellent, 4 of them may yield moderate to small results, and 3 don't work at all. I'm still ahead of stock form, and the cumulative effects add up to nice gains.
I will say this. Using the Cleanwave function of my PS Audio powerplant has always yielded results on the subtle side, so I often don't use it. I tried it the other night after many months, and with the recent tweeks I have done, (positioning, room treatment, and tube rolling) the effect became quite noticeable.
My point being the sonically useless tweek of today, may tomorrow yield results as more attention is paid to bottlenecks further up and downstream.
I have another point to make about listening in general.
Often when I hear a truly excellent system, I am not immediately able to discern all it's positive qualities.
It's only after hearing it for quite a while, and with different recordings that all of a sudden I hear a vocal (for example) that is much cleaner or more natural, or easier to hear reverb or mic coloration) than I am used to.
Many times in the past I have found systems to be better performers than my hearing is acclimated to. I liken it to a novice wine conneseaur's tastebuds/brain not being refined enough to tell the difference between a fine bottle and an average one. Does it mean that the difference doesn't exist? No, only that the observer couldn't discern a difference.
And that is how my ear has become refined to the State that is is now. Dougdeacon probably hears subtleties of VTA and timing that would elude me (at least until he pointed them out (or the lack of) in various examples to let me experience it for myself)
So just because a tweek doesn't appear to help, doesn't mean that it isn't having a positive affect.
Yeap, same signal was send to both that made the evaluation that much easier. A/B-ing left speaker to right speaker show no difference......to my ear. But, it was a while ago and it could prove its qualities on more resolving system though. I am not in the rush to try that again.
I am not doubting it works but just reporting my 2c.
Timrhu, I guess you are suggesting that some tweaks, components, etc. have greater impact than others. I certainly don't deny that given my experiences. I think that DBT advocates typically go further saying that they would have to have differences "proven" to them for some tweaks as they "don't believe anyone can explain why they would make a difference." I would not bother to "prove" anything in audio to another person. I really don't care whether or not they buy the tweak. I do believe that many of these people expect that DBTesting would show few if any differences would be noted in DBTs. If so, how they choose their component baffles me or how they would improve their system would seem impossible.
DBTs seldom, if ever, find humans can hear a difference. It is somewhat complicated but by logic you can never "prove" an hypothesis, but one counter finding can "disprove" an hypothesis. This is why researchers evaluate a null hypothesis, such as Democrats and Republicans vote the same, and then seek enough confidence to reject that hypothesis. But in DBTs the null hypothesis that there are no differences is mainly supported by the research, so they accept the null hypothesis, which cannot logically be done. It is just for this particular study and its measurements and design that anything can be said. Nothing can be generalized.
Magfan, you say, "If, in your own home, you have someone swap / not swap fuses and can not relieably tell the difference, than it makes no difference. period." Absolutely wrong! You hear no difference but others might. Certainly you would concede that a better more revealing system might reveal differences. But you should not buy whatever it is that you are trying. You certainly would or should concede that you may be biased to hearing no difference as others maybe to hearing a difference. I am quite empirical about this thinking you should try it and see. I would paraphrase your sentence to be-If, in your own home, you have someone swap fuses and hear a difference, then there is a difference. Period. Sometimes this swapping may not be easily done double blind, such as removing all room treatments, and sometimes it cannot be made quickly as cables may take hours to settle down.
Tried that with my older ML (replaced the stock with premium fuse in only one speaker). Same signal was fed to both speakers. Sorry, heard no difference. YMMV.
I think many are really insincere in advocating it, in that they would not pay any attention unless it supported their belief that there are no differences.
Tbg, probably true in some cases, although I can't think what benefit there is to that way of thinking. How about if we turn it around like this; I think many are really insincere in advocating it is USELESS, in that they would not pay any attention unless it supported their belief that there ARE differences. For this line of thinking I can see benefits.
I'm not here to tell you your ears are wrong. I'm not here asking for proof of something that isn't provable either.
What I have a problem with are words such as "substantial" when describing different tweaks. If I were to hear a substantial difference I expect I could identify that difference. I have two pairs of speakers that are sometimes set up at the same time. I can tell from another room which speakers are playing because the difference in their sound is substantial.
As for your last sentence, if I responded sincerely this post would not get through.
I don't know what else to say....I have stipulated that a DBT in Hi-End is difficult if not impossible.....For many practical reasons. It is an example of methodology ONLY. For example, the 'D' in DBT means Double....the person doing the setup as well as the listener (victim) should have no idea what is being or not being swapped....very difficult when changing a power cord as big as your arm from the 'stock' bit of lamp cord! So 'D' appears OUT.
The real proof of the pudding, is when you can identify changes with a degree of certainty. If, in your own home, you have someone swap / not swap fuses and can not relieably tell the difference, than it makes no difference. period. Just so long as you don't know if the item under test has or hasn't actually been changed.
Certainly NOT beyond proof of difference. That one fuse is Better....well, that certainly is up to you. But for me to go that route I'll need some indicaton that it works.
As for now, instead of 4x40$=160, I'll spend the same on a couple boxes of OC703=about 140$ and a 30 or 40$ trip to the hardware store. I don't think I should worry about fuses until my listening area is up to snuff.
How would you prove that changing fuses make no difference at all? Or is this really beyond proof. What you are left with is many who hear no difference, and those who claim the differences are noticeable and worthwhile. Of course there are many peieces (amps, preamps, cables, speakers, etc) where it is somewhat easy to explain on technical grounds why you should, and most do hear a difference (most seem obvious) and there this a range of tweeks with technical explanations of dubious merit (I would rely on an audio engineer to tell me about the techincal side of this since I have no technical training); though I grant there maybe be things that we don't even know how to (or that we should)measure which remain, nevertheless very real in how they affect a system. It does seem hard to beleive DBT is of absolutely no value - but maybe it is. I easily hear differences between components and do believe that there are differences. I don't pretend to understand the techincal reasons why a fuse should or should not make a difference in the sound of an amp, I only know I don't hear a difference (though I would like to)and that when I asked three amp designers, who do beleive in differences from circuit design, capacitors, power supplies, tubes, etc, don't beleive in the "fuse" theory. Some things make a difference, some don't, but it seems pretty hard to prove something doesn't make a difference.
Albert, I don't support outlawing it although I think it is worthless. I think many are really insincere in advocating it, in that they would not pay any attention unless it supported their belief that there are no differences. I am always curious about how these people buy a system. It seems to me that they should only shop at Radio Shack and never make additional purchases.
Everyone likes to talk about double blind audio, compared to clinical drug testing. The big difference, the drug effect is tested long term, not one pill one day and another pill the next.
Perhaps the reason Tbg and I are so against DBT is because humans don't work well in an environment of continually changing equipment. That's a poor way to decide about long term enjoyment and it's certainly no way to music.
What if you spent 10 minutes in your local classical music hall in a front row seat, then were moved to dress circle for 10 minutes then to the back of the hall for 10 minutes. How do you think you would describe the content of the performance that day?
Lets forget about this silly DBT stuff, it's outlawed over at Audio Asylum because it's invalid for deciding about music. That's one area where they are clearly superior to Audiogon.
At a recent Stereophile show they had working groups. In one of these, in the first session (early morning), the speaker said that very few folks were able to tell if they were listening to a 30 watt tube amp, or a 200 Watt, 1980s, Denon amp. I'm not sure what that proves, but I found it a bit suprising. In our session, the second session, it did seem that 80% of us were able to tell the which was which almost all the time - it seemed pretty obvious, but that from the bass perfromance, in the midrange it was very, very similar. You would have expected drastic, obvious differences, in the blind test, they were not.
Magfan, Timrhu, and Pubul57, I will not go through all of the DBT stuff again, but if others do not accept your measure of "sounding better" you can hardly prove anything by using it even were you to use the best experimental procedures. Secondly, no body needs to "prove" anything to you. You are not authorities in the Scam Police. Finally, Magfan in particular seems to react in envy. Just because you cannot yet afford better fuses doesn't mean that you are right that they cannot work or are too expensive for what they do.
Years ago I participated in DBTs at CES, run I think by Stereophile, I had difficulty telling whether our brief listening to an amp was the same amp or a different one. Afterwards, with the amps still hidden I could clearly hear a difference. What would you conclude? One, the brief listening or the same/different task is not the same as what sounds better. Or two, there was no difference in the amps but somehow despite the screen, I was getting clues a to what I preferred. I certainly did not conclude that it didn't matter which amp I bought. If you would embarrass that, fine but don't bother me.
I have consistently found improvement using the IsoClean fuses more so than the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses. Sometimes this is substantial. In my experience I would recommend them to others, but I guarantee nothing. YMMV.
Good pont Timrhu. I don't beleive that there are any insurmountable difficulties in setting up a DBT of cables, amplifiers, power cords or whatever; simply a lack of interest by entities that have the resources to fund accurate and probative DBT's (such as pharmaceutical corporations and government agencies). This is in part likely a combination of no financial benefit to the corps and no significant public interest as to the agencies. Furthermore, as to the more ridiculous claims - no one is going to spend the money because there really is no question to be answered .
Don't mention double blind tests as they are invalid tests for audio.
Tbg, wow, where did that come from? To paraphrase you, certainly you saying DBTs are invalid don't make it so. As Magfan asserts, conducting DBTs would be difficult with hifi but not impossible. Of the actual DBTs I've read about only ten percent or so have shown people hear a difference between the items under test. Those people who statistically show the ability to discern differences are usually practiced listeners. Which you probably are. But again the items under test were items that are accepted, even by most skeptics to have a difference. IMO many of those people in the audio world who are dead set against DBT have something to lose. For instance, if I sold an item such as a battery operated clock and claimed that by placing the clock in your home your audio system would sound better I wouldn't want that subjected to a DBT.
Wow! 14 large for amps is beyond my entire investment, at new/retail. Even counting my non-audio stuff like TV and DVD player (OPPO '981). As far as I can tell, given that I have a non-optimum room, I could spend 3x on equipment/gear and not get much or any better sound. Now, If I spent some loot improving the listening space, I'm sure that there is probably a better equipment set. Everyones value/cost curve is different. But for now, I think I will get more out of a better space for say....300$, counting a couple boxes of OC703, some wood / coverings and mounting hardware than I could out of half that in fuses.... 2 for the amp / another 2 for the speakers. At that point I may be willing to go nuts and ship off for some standard ceramic fuses. If they make ANY difference I'll be surprised enough to ask for some fuses for Christmas! Now, I dont' believe I mischaracterized anyones statements. That there are believers and skeptics is a given. In my last post I used DBT as an example of how the Placebo effect plays into peoples wishes / wants / desires. I, better than most realize the difficulties (practical impossibility in Hi-Fi) of organizing such a test. Being on the skeptic side makes me the nut! If anyone would perform some due diligence and just have some healthy skepticism.... I will remain open to the tuning fuse.....But would wish for someone to be able to reliably tell the difference...fuse in or out, with some degree of confidence. This is the 2nd or 3rd time I've made such a request. No Takers? If I had these fuses, you can be sure that I'd try it.
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