I am looking for your feedback on what Horn speakers I should consider in the $15k-$40k price range. Please describe the rationale for your recommendations.
As the OP, how I started on this adventure was because I heard the Avantgarde Uno Fino. I had never heard any horn type speaker before. That prompted my question and the wonderful learning experience from reading everyone’s post. I am embarking on building a modern house. Consequently, a true horn will not fit our decor. That means Klipsch, JBL and any big box vintage looking speakers are out.
So if that means I would not be getting a true horn so be it. At the end of the day if i buy a hybrid horn and I love the sound then I will be totally happy.
It’s difficult to assess what you’re really going for here. What’s the restricting factor considering your future speakers - aesthetics more than size per se, re: "fit(ting) our decor"? And what sonic qualities in particular from named Avantgarde speakers was it that you liked and made you want to investigate further?
Even horn hybrids can take up space, but not too few of them thrive on being placed rather close to the back wall, thereby taking up limited floor area and "stealing" less into the listening/living room. Certainly this would open up the possibility for a range of speakers size-wise, even including a few all-horn options like the Klipsch La Scala’s (Jubilee’s, perhaps, but a stretch), Volti Audio Vittora’s and Simon Mears Audio Uccello’s, but for reasons not entirely clear you already ruled out Klipsch, so let’s forget about those options.
What about Volti Audio’s horn hybrid Rival’s? In this size class (almost) there’s the PBN 2!5’s as well. Classic Audio Loudspeakers have been mentioned, and I can only imagine they sound wonderful, but will they fit the budget at no more than $40k (question aimed at @atmasphere )? They aren’t small either, but the beautiful cabinetry could make up for it and have them pass for furniture, which is so rarely seen with loudspeakers today (with wood that actually looks, feels and even smells like wood and isn’t lacquered to death, although this may be an undesirable physical trait in a more typical, modern home). Duke’s Audiokinesis speakers seem to fit both size and budget, and by all accounts sound very good. Or how about looking into some of Oswalds Mill Audio’s smaller models like the Mini’s and Monitor? They’re expensive, but sport beautiful, old school cabinet work, great pro drivers and supposedly excellent sound quality.
I understand the considerations in regards to interior decoration, but if you’re really into sound reproduction let your speakers be a main priority in the allotted space they’re given - with the adherence to form-follows-function as far as it goes, and not vice versa. As it often happens, to my eyes at least, the really interesting physical shape of speakers comes via an uninhibited accordance with their function as dictated by physics. Even a much smaller, typical slender square box speaker can be seen as an outright nuisance in a home setting because it’s just that: a tall, rectangular square box oftentimes finished in a rather sterile manner, and one that’s placed well into the room, at that.
^^ Duke has always made excellent speakers- IMO/IME part of being excellent is being easy to drive! Amps just make less distortion when things are easy :)
Consequently, a true horn will not fit our decor. That means Klipsch, JBL and any big box vintage looking speakers are out.
So
if that means I would not be getting a true horn so be it. At the end
of the day if i buy a hybrid horn and I love the sound then I will be
totally happy.
@willgolf In that case you really owe it to yourself to check out the Classic Audio Loudspeakers. They tick all the boxes nicely!http://classicaudioloudspeakers.com
There are two different kinds of 15" + horn hybrid speakers.
The first group - 15" drivers optimized to play from mid-bass to lower mid-range. For example older Altec 15" driver like: 803a/b, 515, 515B, 604 Hollywood/B/C/E. These drivers have great speed, tone and texture in a male vocals and cello range. But they don’t play a deep bass. They good for vocals, classical and jazz music.
The second group - more modern 15" drivers built for rock and roll and electrical bass. Like later Altec drivers: 416, 604K and most of JBL drivers used in speakers like: L300, 4430. These drivers play deep and powerful bass but flat in a male vocals and cello range.
For example, I heard JBL L200, L300 and 4430. The older model belongs more to the 1st goop, L300 and 4430 belong to the 2nd group.
As the OP, how I started on this adventure was because I heard the Avantgarde Uno Fino. I had never heard any horn type speaker before. That prompted my question and the wonderful learning experience from reading everyone's post. I am embarking on building a modern house. Consequently, a true horn will not fit our decor. That means Klipsch, JBL and any big box vintage looking speakers are out.
So if that means I would not be getting a true horn so be it. At the end of the day if i buy a hybrid horn and I love the sound then I will be totally happy.
OK correct me if I am wrong but going to the Avantgarde site I see this speaker has two woofers for the sub section but no horn for them. So if this is a cabinet sub and not a horn once again someone does not understand what was asked by the OP. Namely a pure horn set up. People it is plain and simple. Horn subs, true horn subs can't be small to produce the sound. A true full range horn system with good or better bass will not fit into these silly fru fru ultra modern cool looking designs. The very smallest commercially available worthwhile hi fidelity all horn full range speaker I know of is the Klipsch Jubilee. It is not however pretty like this Duo thing might be but it IS all horn.
I attended the 2019 Munich high end show. Horn speakers were everywhere! I think all major and many minor brands were present. I auditioned many of them, and enjoyed the Avantgarde speakers most of all - I ended up going to their booth several times. They had the Duo Mezzo and Uno Fino models on demo. I later found a dealer where I could audition more comprehensively, and ended up acquiring the Duo XD model.
"Seems many who have a horn bias have never heard a proper set. Since
many of the things, they insist all horns do I never hear out of a
proper setup full front loaded horn system. My horns systems disappear
when on.
Music sounds real whole complete
and in realistic space not emanating from a source. I don't get overly
large image size I'm not limited in any way on music type or SPL even
very low SPL. I can and do fit large horns in small and average spaces
and get great results seems I'm not alone in that lookup Japanese horn
systems. I can do that with almost any type of loudspeaker. I just don't
get why simple system set up and synergy eludes so many in this hobby." You are 100% right. When people start chiming in with things like Fortes when the OP asked for all horn systems you have to wonder what people even think all horn systems are. Mine is a two way system that goes from 18khz to 27hz. The bass bin is a derivative of the MCM 1900 MWM modified to be deeper and taller and is 60" wide at the mouth and 60" deep and 106" of travel from the woofer cone to the mouth of the horn. The Klipsch 402 horn lens crosses over at 500hz and goes to 18khz. Center to center they are 17 feet and I sit back from them normally at 12 feet or so. By listening to what many have for room size this is not out of the norm. The DB meter tells me that my favorite level is generally around 80 so I don't have these things loud most of the time. But when I do it is chest thumping perfect fidelity that is possible only with a horn. These two ways just disappear and the sound quality will raise goose bumps on your arms at times and all you horn nay sayers just have no idea what you are missing. All these negative comments on horns just tell me there are a lot of people who simply have never heard a set but they can tell you all about what they can't or won't be able to do. Anyone near southern middle Tennessee is welcome to stop in and hear for yourself. PM me and we can go from there. Twist my arm real hard and i will stop my day to listen to music;)
Seems many who have a horn bias have never heard a proper set. Since many of the things, they insist all horns do I never hear out of a proper setup full front loaded horn system. My horns systems disappear when on. Music sounds real whole complete and in realistic space not emanating from a source. I don't get overly large image size I'm not limited in any way on music type or SPL even very low SPL. I can and do fit large horns in small and average spaces and get great results seems I'm not alone in that lookup Japanese horn systems. I can do that with almost any type of loudspeaker. I just don't get why simple system set up and synergy eludes so many in this hobby. Still, no-one can like all things we like what we like and this is a hobby so have at it and enjoy it. But if you just are offended by the very idea of large loudspeakers you will most likely not enjoy a horn. If you enjoy massive SS amplification a horn might not be best. But if you're looking for near realistic sound something you can use all day without fatigue ability to sound great at high or low-levels propulsive force= the feeling of wanting to move your body, visual appeal [subjective I know] but I do get many + comments on my many horns people like to touch them take pics etc not so much with my Harbeths-then a horn may well be worth considering. I mentioned before best to learn as much as you can before going horn because if you do it right it might be the last loudspeaker pair you buy since another benefit of horns is the don't go obsolete quickly can be upgraded repaired in the field. And many hold their value or even increase in such. Good luck.
Some ideas about hybrids and other horn system, and coherence.
Almost every horn system have dynamics, and gives more "flesh and blood" than classical "box speakers". but... As said @mrdecibel, coherence is essential. To my opinion, THE point to accomplish when making a speaker. Coherent speaker are not so frequent , and coherent horn systems are...very rare :-D Even if i do not close my eyes, i want to forget how many speakers/horns are playing. I want to hear musicians between the speakers, not treble / medium / bass horn
With any hybrid horn speaker, there is ALWAYS a mismatch. Even with the best (even those i made years ago :-D ), even perfectly crossed and time aligned, the mismatch is in dynamics behavior, or "speed" feeling, or tone. One can be easily blown away by his first listening experience with this kind of horn system. To be still in love with it weeks, months, and years later is another story !
About La Scala and comparable speakers : Properly used they can be enjoyable...well, exhilarating speakers ! They are very compact for their efficiency too, and affordable. Many good reasons to by and keep them...But i am not found of the horn association : For me it is a bass horn with a medium horn. Who is supposed to reproduce the low mid ? male voices ? cello ? A 15" speaker cannot do that properly, moreover in a folded horn. An heavily truncated 500 Hz acoustical cutoff horn neither.
When testing a horn system, it is unnecessary to play "boom-boom-kss-kss" music (rock&roll, many jazz trio, and of course audiophile drum records) : this will be fun and probably good. Most of the problems will occur playing voices, or string quartet. Play them to point out mismatch between the horns, crossover issues, phase shift, blur in sound stage (when it is not image overlays :-D. )...
For all those reasons, when i do not listen a perfectly voiced full horn loaded system, i play a simple full range in open baffle. For coherence :-D
Being a UK-based Wigwam scribe, have you by any chance listened to Simon Mears Audio Uccello's? Yes, they were at one of our annual enthusiasts' shows. I thought they were very good. Not as lively as the La Scalas and may be more suited to classical/jazz but still very much in the room.
Mr D...whoops overdone the enthusiasm. But I did like the speakers a lot and as they are hand made in the US thought the UK's cross Atlantic cousins may be interested.Speakers not for the chin-stroking studiers but they do make you want to get up and dance. And in my case, not a pretty sight but I did not care.
Larger horn systems may be hard to blend into the decor of multi-use rooms and smaller rooms, but, they do not inherently sound out of place in small rooms. To me, they are so much better than most speaker types as low volume that their biggest strength is playback at low volume in small venues. Yes, they will do loud, but, they are even better at doing soft (they still sound alive). Whether this is in the nature of the horns themselves, or the low-powered amps that can be used with these high efficiency speakers (I am guessing both are factors), it remains the case that it is somewhat harder to find non-horn based systems that are so lively at low volume (old quad 57 electrostatics come to mind as contenders).
"
My only advice for you. Try and listen to everything you can, before you buy, and, if possible, to listen in your new room
" The best possible advice you can get. You might not get them in your room but find someone who has what you are interested in and listen first and also find out how they feed them to get them to sound right if you like them..
"
I am wondering if Roy Delgado would feel the Jubilees would work in a 15 by 20 room. Sorry if I offended you. Enjoy ! MrD.
" No not offended at all I just think people get cheated out of some systems because they don't realize how they really function. Met Roy at the last Klipsch gathering and here is a bit of Klipsch history for you. A select group of speaker owners were invited to Klipsch to preview the Jubilee and none of them were, as far as I know, professional sound stage guys representing theaters or industry. Claude and Coytee on the Klipsch forum were two of them and still active there and they probably would fill you in on the details if you go there and ask. Suffice it to say Roy would approve of their use anywhere I believe. It was the last speaker he and Paul Klipsch worked on together so it has a place in his heart. Would he say so in public since Jubilees are far more sound than KHorns at half the price? We think this is why the Jubilees are kept industrial looking so as to not compete with the much more refined appearance of veneered boxes. Plus it is pretty hard to make the 402 horns on top of them pretty with zero WAF. My main goal in pushing these horns is based on the food chain many of us waste our time and money on. We keep spending a little more looking for that great audio and then go through way to many sets before we find what we were looking for. I had to waste a lot of time and money before I had ever heard my first real good 2" horn driven pro speaker and I just wish someone would have shown me those when I first became interested in Klipsch. By the way, if anyone reads up on those Super MWM's the 3D or 2D files are freely available to anyone who wants to build a set for personal use. This is not permission to start making these for profit.
@georgesallit325...nice review, as you posted it earlier on this page. @johnk. We obviously listen differently, and want, and enjoy, different things. This was apparent when we had a debate between Lascalas and Altec 19s. I have owned a pair or two of 19s ( and modded many ), and I prefer the Lascala. I am " sensitive " to many hybrids ( a non bass horn ), as I hear the transition between the woofer section and the horn, and a lack of speed and finesse, with many of these bass sections, of some hybrids. I know you hear this, but maybe, you do not care about it. As far as large horn hybrids, or large full range horns ( the ones you speak about ), of which I have heard plenty, particularly many of the Klipsch KPT series, I prefer some distance, between them, and I. There is no discussion, or argument, here. This is what " I " prefer, and that is all. My perception of many of these units, when I am listening too close, is not a presentation that I feel is real, correct, or enjoyable. Again, this is me. You can rant all you want about me being wrong, as it does not matter to me. I do not need to explain how I developed my listening biases, nor defend them. I simply know what I like, and again, this is what matters. So, my take away from all of this, is that you, and Malhman, feel you both are correct, and that I am just plain wrong. So be it. 50 years in the high end audio industry, much time around live, un-amplified music, 50 years around, and a fan of, horn speakers, and, my ears have developed with a knowing of what I like. I also had, and still have, the ability for me, to help listeners create sound systems in their homes. And, guess what, johnnie boy. Not all of my customers, acquaintances, or friends, prefer horns. Although I do, I respect them all, and never judge them for what they prefer, and enjoy. Many people in this industry, seem to forget this very important point. We are all different. @willgolf. I know this is your thread. I do apologize for any thing I might have stated out of line, with you. My only advice for you. Try and listen to everything you can, before you buy, and, if possible, to listen in your new room. Yes, I am a Klipsch guy...Enjoy ! MrD.
"
Place them in a 15 by 20 room, a standard sized listening room for many,
and yes, they would be overwhelming, both visually, and acoustically.
Now, knowing who you are, I can understand your viewpoint.
" LOL yeah they are not real esthetic I have to admit. I find that I listen to music quite often at 70 to 80db though so it is not like I have them thumping a lot. Way to easy to harm your hearing. I went through a lot of speakers to get to this point though including many La Scalas. I have four sets in the shop right now in various stages of restoration so I am quit familiar with them. What started my love affair with bigger was a set of KP-450's which were a two way system with two 15" woofers and a fairly large horn with the 1132 driver on them. The sound was so compelling and so superior to La Scalas that I never looked back. People that have owned both the next generation which was the KPT-456, which sounded even better, and KHorns, which as you know is better than La Scalas, prefer the KPT-456's. Problem with older used gear is they are quit scarce and you can look today for these and find KHorns or La Scalas most every day. But not the KP or KPT's because once the movie theaters sell them off and they get into private hands they stay there and are not sold again except between friends from what I see. What I have really been seeking over the years was something that could play classical organ music like Toccata and Fugue in D Minor just like I was there in person. I wanted to hear and feel it just like real life. But then also play Cello or bagpipes or classical rock or blues just like I was there too. It is amazing how many low five string bass notes people have no idea even exist in music because their system cant play that low or big kick drums. And yes large horns deliver the crispest most precise tight bass out there along with punch you can feel and direct radiating speakers don't. Although I have to admit the KPT 456 came somewhat close but with muddier sound. I went to Metropolis Outfitters in Paducah KY once because Cory had the new La Scala III's and a Jubilee with the 402 horn on top in his sound rooms. The La Scalas looked really nice but paled into insignificance compared to the Jubilees. Now the La Scalas III's are as good a speaker as many will ever hear since they have gone to 1" sides and the resonance problem is gone. Problem is there is just so much more that can be had for the asking. I can tell you flat out though that big speakers do not overwhelm rooms and there are guys on the Klipsch forum with those fabulous MCM 1900 systems in their houses along with Jubilees. I have personally sold 10 sets of KP450's and KPT-456's to home owners and they are for 200 seat theaters and they love them. Kind of industrial looking for sure but the detail and superior listening experience at any volume just works in any room. If you are ever near southern middle Tennessee you are welcome to stop in and hear them just PM me.
"
A lot of love for Klipsch speakers on this thread. Hmmmm, I wonder why
there are so many for sale on the US audio mart website? " Might be because there are 33,000+ forum members and who knows how many buyers of Klipsch so yes they do show up and don't last long unless grossly over priced. "
60 foot sound stage LOL sounds to me like someone has no experience with
large horn systems. I sit in my office listening to a community
leviathan system in nearfield low level rooms 14x17 it images
wonderfully massively low in distortion interacts little with walls
floor etc has a normal soundstage like a normal speaker would as do my
Shearers my giant RCA front horns my electronluv horns my WE horns etc
etc all just reproduce music in a natural real way. I just don’t get why
state absolutes when you have never experienced what you say all big
horns do? I can understand size issues but the rest is just uninformed
bias.
" 100% agree. Looked up that horn and it looks like they were thinking like Danley but years earlier. I would like to hear those some day. Near field indeed LOL!
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook please report back after you get the Forte III's your listening impressions. I really intrigued by these it seems some of the reports are very good and others can't seem to get the setup to sound right. I used to own KG4's and Chorus I's back in the 80's and enjoyed them unfortunately never heard them with tubes as nobody I knew had tubes nor did any of the locals shops sell them.
60 foot sound stage LOL sounds to me like someone has no experience with large horn systems. I sit in my office listening to a community leviathan system in nearfield low level rooms 14x17 it images wonderfully massively low in distortion interacts little with walls floor etc has a normal soundstage like a normal speaker would as do my Shearers my giant RCA front horns my electronluv horns my WE horns etc etc all just reproduce music in a natural real way. I just don’t get why state absolutes when you have never experienced what you say all big horns do? I can understand size issues but the rest is just uninformed bias.
mahlman, I know you, from the " bay ", as I recognize those huge full range horn speakers in ur warehouse. Place them in a 15 by 20 room, a standard sized listening room for many, and yes, they would be overwhelming, both visually, and acoustically. Now, knowing who you are, I can understand your viewpoint. I still disagree, as I do feel the speakers, in relation to the room size, are quite critical, and my many years of professional system design and set up, tells me that. We are all entitled to our opinions, have different experiences, and ultimately, our goals in a system. If the room was large enough, and the listening seat were further from the horns than norm, I might see them working. Again, I am not stating they aren't amazing. I am simply saying, " I " would want a larger listening area, and a further distance between them and my listening seat. Your last paragraph makes it sound like I was trying to talk the OP out of purchasing horns, which I am not. Your aluminum tweeter housings ( as well as your wooden ones ) for the Klipsch Lascalas, are very interesting. I am wondering if Roy Delgado would feel the Jubilees would work in a 15 by 20 room. Sorry if I offended you. Enjoy ! MrD.
"
they fall into a category of similarity to the monstrous horn speakers
johnk was talking about. The projection, presentation, and
pressurization ( the 3 Ps ) of these, would be too much in a typically
sized room.
" Well monstrous I guess is in the eye of the beholder and anyone can go to the Klipsch cinema site and get exact dimensions to plan by. There are more of these in houses than people might think because they do not overwhelm anything but rather bring stunning big stage realism to even moderate sized rooms. You control the volume and if you want it stupid loud you can go there. If you want striking fidelity at any level loud or quiet you can go there too only it adds presence smaller speakers and half horn and half direct radiating speakers only dream of. Before Paul Klipsch died these were being developed as the next stage after the KHorn. Subsequently they made it only to the Cinema line we Klipsch guys figure because they are twice the sound of KHorns and half the price. Pro speaker buyers are a lot more fussy about price combined with superior sound for that price. About that 60' piano. Sounds good but in reality if the recording has the piano centered in the room so will the Jubilees and crap recordings might give you a 60' sound stage good ones give you a regular piano with precision.
OP before you let people fill you full of their opinions on why things like Jubilees WONT work go to the klipsch forum and find out why they will work from people who have done what you want to do. If you are really seeking sound and not status you simply can't ignore what horns bring to the table. Projection and presentation and pressurization making these unsuitable is nonsense. Talk to those who have done it and see what they have to say. You pass the idea up of a pure horn system you will regret doing so if you ever hear anything like those Jubilees.
I understand, and completely validate, how wonderful the Jubilee is. However, as I pointed out, they fall into a category of similarity to the monstrous horn speakers johnk was talking about. The projection, presentation, and pressurization ( the 3 Ps ) of these, would be too much in a typically sized room. My Lascalas, at their size and capability, can fill an auditorium. These large horns, such as the Jubillee, in a typical room, would make a piano sound larger than life, and I am not talking about dynamics here. As much as I love their sound, they would simply overwhelm the listening experience, for me, in my current room. I can easily pinpoint, currently, the musicians, on a stage, in a realistic, and proper perspective, from my listening chair. This is, of course, my opinion, given my listening for so many years. I have stated elsewhere, that imaging and sound staging, are not the top priority for me when listening to a sound system. But I do not want to listen to a 60 foot wide piano, as it is simply not realistic for me. If I had a movie theater as a listening room, that would be another matter. With all this being said, if anyone would like to give me a pair of Klipsch Jubilees, or sell me a pair very reasonably, I believe I can modify and tweak them, have fun with them, and make them work in my room, living with the musicians, as being giants, lol. Enjoy ! MrD.
I found the review refreshing because over 95% of the reviews I read on equipment rarely ever cite music that I listen to. Its almost always Classical, Jazz, female vocals etc and that's not up my alley. This reviewers song selections I know quite well (other than SADE) so I can relate...finally.
I just sold some Audio Note AN-E SPX Al-Nico's this week (too polite for Rock) so will probably go bottom fishing this week and pick up a pair of Forte III's to experiment with. At 1/10th the price of the Audio Notes Im not risking much. Don't have room for the larger Klipsch Horns. Will probably pair with my low wattage amps (Audio Note Jinro/Pass XA25/Valvet E2 SE/First Watt Sit-3 Mono's).
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook, I don't always agree with your opinions, but I think your review of the Forte III really hit the mark and accurately described their raison d'etre. When you consider what Klipsch delivers in total, they are really quite a good value. Thanks, John
Reading a lot here about Fortes and Chorus and other "Heritage" speakers. Now the Belle and La Scala and KHorn are all horn speakers. The rest of the Heritage line still has direct radiator woofers so they are not pure horn speakers. Those new Jubilees by the way are cheaper then KHorns and sound far better and the KHorns sound better than La Scalas so there is your audio food chain.OP asked about pure horn speakers.
As a true pure horn setup you would have to go along way to beat the Klipsch Jubilee with the monster 402 horn lens on top of it. Dynamic bass which only a true horn can give and not at all thirsty for wattage. Any genre of music sounds good with it and I believe they are under $10,000.
Klipsch Cinema has some fabulous gear and it might not be as pretty as some would like but if sound is paramount it is the best I have heard. Had a set of three way MCM 1900's and while they might be made for a 600 seat theater played at lower volumes they are eminently suitable for home use. The dynamic presence and articulation is stunning and the sweet spot extremely wide. None of this don't move your head more than a foot or you lose it junk. Remember if you meant what you said about pure horns size is the only way to get that super crisp clean thumping bass. A direct radiator bass bin can't give you the "right there" thump a horn will. You want a kettle drum or Star Wars explosion to rattle your cage go with a horn. Go to the klipsch site and check out the bigger all horn Cinema systems. To make them really sing you will have to bi or tri amp and set them up with DSP to but when you do the Wison etal megabuck dudes you invite over will leave quite distraught. There is nothing to rival a pure horn Klipsch Cinema system. Don't believe me go hear one. Before you buy anything.
RIAA, this quote I repeated, by the reviewer, Ken, was made prior, to his review of the Fortes IIIs. He happens to like horns, and have reviewed many. Your reviewer did not mention listening to great Jazz players, such as by Thelonious Monk, Miles, Hancock, Brubeck, Oscar Peterson, etc. he was only interested in " cranking them, and although they do crank, that is just one benefit of a horn design. Besides, I can guarantee you, if I ( and some others ) went inside of the Forte IIIs ( by removing the drivers, rear passive, and input panel ), there would be many things that could be done to them, to make them better. I have done so with the original Fortes, the series 2s, the original Chorus and series 2, the 4 models of the Epic series that has been copied by many , and some others, that were built here in the Arkansas plant, and this, of course, includes the Heritage series ( the Klipsch marketing department included the Forte 2, and now the 3, as Heritage models ). Being the old timer Klipsch guy that I am, I need to point out, that the 5 original Heritage series models ( with 4 still in production ), were PWK designs. Roy Delgado was behind all of the other designs. My opinion ( and many others ), of course, is, the Khorn, the Lascala, and the Belle ( no longer in production, because the Lascala outsold it, as well as the Belle used a shorter mid horn ), are worlds apart, superior, to any of the other Klipsch models. I am not speaking of the short lived Palladium series, although, my feelings about my preferred 3 are the same. I know I am making this about Klipsch, but, willgolf will post when he comes closer to a decision. ***** @dseltz, years ago, I heard an earlier, lesser model from the company. However, the current Saadhana seems like a winner, and at a fair price. *****Lastly, I completely agree with Ralph. A speaker, should be able to play " any " kind of music, and " handle " any kind of music, at every desired volume level, from the delicacy of a single violin, or, cannon blasts from the Telarc 1812. And yes, Zep, Floyd, and others, such as mentioned by Ralph. Enough of me ! Enjoy ! MrD.
Tannoy Horns should be on your list to audition if you can live with their vintage looks. I currently own Westminster SEs, and had RHRs before. Both excellent speakers. I had Avantgarde Duos approx 10yrs ago. Mids/highs were really good, I just didnt like the factory subwoofers too much. PBN M2!5 is an interesting speaker. I never heard them, but I have a lot of respect for PBN speakers, and have owned many pairs of their speakers in the past. I wouldnt rule out JBL speakers. People always talking crap about them have no idea what they can build.
Sorry, I am curious as you seem quite knowledgeable and I am relatively new to horns. I have only heard unmodified Klipsch and I preferred the Rethm to these. Thanks again
I would be curious to get your opinion on the Rethm Saadhana (if you have heard them). They have powered bass built in (obviously not horn) but designed to avoid the disconnect and goes down to 18Hz. I find their sound wonderful (but obviously that is my opinion). Did you hear a disconnect? Obviously,, the Rethm would be pricier than your suggestion, but less 'work' as a plug and play so to say.
Providing the big hall sound does mean a tradeoff. Pinpoint imaging is
sacrificed along with the single position ultimate sweet spot.
My system does not seem to have that tradeoff. I get pinpoint imaging along with a huge soundstage- the bigger the room, the better.
I like to play King Crimson's Islands at shows- the string bass in the first track is very natural and the bass drum later in that same track is quite visceral. The shimmer of the cymbals in ELP's self titled first LP is wonderful- I have a Pink Island copy which is a bit smoother and more lively than the US vinyl. The guitar sound on Yes' The Yes Album (plum label UK Atlantic) is just like the amp is sitting right in front of you.
Meanwhile EMI made some impressive classical recordings about the same time- one of them, The Wand of Youth I like to play as a demo of depth, detail and dynamic range (Wild Bears track). So when its a 70s recording, is that just rock or is classical included? Does it matter if its Kraut Rock, British or American?
The fact of the matter is speakers have no taste of their own and a good speaker is equally good at rock or jazz as it is classical or folk. The idea that a speaker is especially suited for a certain period or genre of music seems to be one of the bigger myths that exists in audio.
Providing the big hall sound does mean a tradeoff. Pinpoint imaging is sacrificed along with the single position ultimate sweet spot. Instead, several listeners get to enjoy the concert sound. So don’t worry about moving about the room or tilting your head. It’s all about enjoying music with others. With the treble and midrange horns one would think that the accordion would be a no-go instrument. Listening to “Check It Out” by John Mellencamp dismisses that theory, as the hand organ places itself nicely within the large soundstage. The upper frequencies are sharp, but never irritating no matter which of the three amplification types powered the Forte III’s. Paired with Nelson Pass designed vintage 60wpc Adcom GFA 535ii, the Forte III’s ooze punch and dynamic power. The famous Maxell tape magazine ad comes to mind with guy in the chair and his hair bowing backwards from the speaker’s output. The best musical match of this pairing was surprisingly the various Indigo Girls ballads, especially “watershed”. Both vocals and instrumentation was stunning, with tonality, instrument separation, and vocal harmonies made for a lean-in experience. A few acoustic and small instrumental recordings did demonstrate the Forte III’s limitations. Sade’s vocals lack the warmth and come across with a bit of a honk, even with tube power. The delicate fingering of Sean Harkness acoustic guitar doesn’t have the inner detail of other speakers. The finite symphonic details of “Neptune” from Holst’s The Planets don’t match the Forte III’s wonderful recreation of the concert hall and the ability to hear quiet passages. It’s the consummation of everything, rather than the individual ingredients that make the Forte III’s so much damn fun. Final ThoughtsThe Klipsch Forte III’s are all about the big sound and enveloping the space and listener. If you’re into the absolute finite instrumental detail, the Forte III’s are not for you. The Klipsch experience is enveloping and reminds the listener of what live music is all about. The fact that very little power can make the Forte III’s fill even an immense space makes the speakers’ price tag far more reasonable. If you have a big room and a hankering for rock or larger ensembles, give the Forte III’s a ride, just bring along a BIC lighter to flick!
Here is a recent review of the Forte III which details its shortcomings as well as its strengths. Not your usual "fluff" piece review like most of them.
My first experience with attempting to fill a large space with sound from home speakers, was my neighbor’s rec room built in the mid-seventies. The room was approximately 30 x 30 with 18ft ceiling. The first time I entered the space Elton John’s anthem “Funeral For A Friend/Love Lies Bleeding” was on the turntable. But no matter how far we pushed the volume, the room swallowed the sound. If only the Klipsch Forte III’s had been in that space the results would have been so very different.
Reliving this 40+ year-old moment, the bass guitar dominates during the transition from down to up-tempo. The Forte III’s energize Elton’s pounding of the ivory. Listening to “Bennie and the Jets” is pretty darn epic as the concert hall sound is easily recreated. Pick any track from Goodbye Yellow Brick Road and the Forte III’s will easily rock the space. The Forte has been a part of the Klipsch stable since the mid 1980’s, with the basic design never wavering. The cabinet is a brawny 16.5 inches wide to go with the 36-inch height. Depth is a modest 13 inches. The review pair came in a beautiful satin finish American walnut veneer. Other veneers include Natural Cherry, Black Ash, and Distressed Oak. Be warned, each cabinet tips the scales at a health 72 pounds. The expansive width allows for both compression-style titanium 1” tweeter and 1.75” midrange horns inset into the cabinet above the 12” fiber woofer. A back panel mounted 15” passive woofer provides the thunder. Dual five-way binding posts complete the tour. Each speaker sits on a simple, rectangular frame base.
Due to the Forte III size, I chose to review them in my 15’x19’ living room. After more than a few hours of constant moving the Forte III’s found their sweet spot just 12” out from the rear wall and 7 feet apart. Every room and speaker is different so don’t be afraid to play around. The Forte III’s are all about the big sound, delicacy is not a part of their DNA. It’s about re-creating a big room and these speakers from Arkansas do it well. Blood, Sweat, & Tears “Spinning Wheel” powers its way with sharp percussion. The sheer size of these speakers helps keep congestion to a minimum, as the ending stays clean thru the mash up flutes and other instruments. In a bit of a surprise, the various trumpet solos are quite smooth, not overly intense including when combining the Forte III’s horns and the Peachtree nova150’s class D amplification. Throughout the album, Blood, Sweat, & Tears brass never falls into shrill territory. The best example is “Lucretia MacEvil”. The distinct vocal style of David Clayton Thomas is presented in full detail.
Continuing the 1970’s musical tour, “School” from Supertramp delivers a nice full room kick once the band joins in. The Forte III’s thrive off the wide dynamic swings of the group. Quiet passages provide respectable detail and the ability to pump vast energy is a real treat. At 8 Ohm nominal and 99db efficiency, it doesn’t take much wattage to get the room pressurized. A vintage 25wpc Pioneer receiver had no problem forcing my ears into a distortion-free surrender. The idea that a $3600 pair of speakers can take a listener into ecstasy with such simple amplification is lights out cool. Taking advantage of the wife being out of town, an autumn rainstorm in Portland meant putting on The Who’s Quadrophenia at decibel levels that could stir Keith Moon’s remains. John Entwhistle’s thundering bass left no doubt that the Forte III’s are truly a monster rock speaker. Add in Pete Townshend’s lead guitar windmill strokes and Moon’s chaotic artillery drumming and it’s rock n’ roll at its finest. The Forte III’s paired in this case with a 35 wpc Vista Audio integrated tube amp provided all the juice one could ask from a speaker. Having so much upper volume pleasure, it seemed only appropriate to relive the concert rock days. Like many, I spent a couple of Sunday’s during summers attending all-day stadium shows. Delving into memory lane with Kansas’ classic “Carry On Wayward Son”, the Forte III’s take great advantage of the massive passive radiator. Yet, the bass kicks blended rather than overwhelmed the balance of the piping synthesizer. The famous signature violin and acoustic guitars in “Dust in the Wind” create excellent stage depth without any harsh shriek.
@jsautter I heard your speakers several years ago at a show. Very nice. Incredible build quality, and the first horn loaded ribbon ( tweeter ) I have ever seen, or heard. I very much understand why you have them, but, still not my cup of tea, nor do I feel they were worth 40K. YMMV. As far as the large horns spoken about by johnk, ridiculous for the majority of living rooms most of us listen in. A quote from a recent Stereophile review on the Forte !!!s : " Horns have the rare ability to reproduce the note - perfect timing, rhythmic energy, and blood - pulsing impact of the real event ". " With their high sensitivity ratings and low power requirements, horns deliver music faster, with jumpin’ jiminy dynamics at practically every volume level ". Could not have said it better. What many " hybrid " horn systems lack, imo ( and this is a quality I appreciate from many years of listening to other types of speakers, such a Vandersteen, Thiel, Wilson and others ), is this thing called " coherence ". My Lascalas ( tweaked and modified ) do this with uncanny, breathtaking honesty. The bass horn, mid horn and treble horn all work together, unlike, say, a pair of Altec 19s, which are an excellent, competitive speaker with the Lascala ( I owned a few pair in my years ), but have a substantial disconnect between woofer, and the horn. My ears are very sensitive to this. Keep in mind, I would rather own a pair of 19s, over a pair of Vandersteen 3s, whatever series. I just like horns, and have, for over 50 years, and I thank PWK, and his early, and still, excellent designs, for this. Lastly, johnk states he can come up with a killer system for about 2K, being superior to other horn speakers at that price level. I admire and respect johnk, just from the readings here, but I would love to see the plans on this design. I also need to say this. I do not know what speakers willgolf will wind up with, but, based on his " regular " room he has in mind for this 2 channel rig, I doubt, based on years of experience, and listening, that his expensive system, will not be able to bring " me " any more listening enjoyment, than my current rig. I do wish him luck, and I am sure, he will be very happy, as at least, he will own horns. Enjoy ! MrD.
Wasnt implying speakers dont sound better today OR that they wouldn't have used it if available back then.
For the past 30-40 years I do business with people like Bob Ezrin, Tom Werman, Phil Ramone, James William Guercio, George Marino, Jimmy Iovine....the list is endless. Also with The Record Plant on both coasts, Cherokee Studios, Crystal Sound and dozens of others. Like you stated...they used what was available. No argument there. Certainly not going to piss on all the work (using JBL's) these legendary Producers/Engineers created.
JBL Monitors are the obvious choice to get the "70's" sound if thats
what your after. These were the speakers used in almost every studio to
create the albums from that time period...hence the term "Studio
Monitors". So THIS is the sound as was intended at the time of the
creation of the music. How do you get more truthful and accurate as
that?
Sorry, this is nonsense. That was the sound that might have been possible in the recording studio at the time, but rest assured if they had better equipment like we have now, they would have used it. Having run a studio in the 1970s (and still run one now) I was only too well aware of how limited JBL monitors were at the time. So we did a lot of headphone listening to get around the limitation of the monitors, and often took the recordings to better systems to see what they actually sounded like.
Its never been my experience that any of the LPs of that period sound better when played only on a particular speaker, especially one made in the 1970s. Most speakers of that era had significant breakups and aren't that nice to listen to at volume. The more **neutral** your speaker, the better those 70s LPs sound. I play lots of vinyl from the 1970s at audio shows and they sound great on horn speakers made in the 21st century, no worries.
The best horn systems are not the ones you find at audio dealers research horns consider a bit of DIY combinations of the best of vintage and modern are the best performing options.
I find there’s merit to this statement. The industry of all this "hifi" is not our affair or business even; we’re the picky consumers (or ought to be), and the industry provides us with the products we deem worthwhile - an important, albeit banal distinction. Still there’s the sense the consumer is sometimes offended on the part of the industry when the latter is deselected by individuals (in favor of DIY offerings, wholly or partly, or specialty/boutique craftsmen) or critical assessment is otherwise placed as if the consumer has somehow gotten infested with the inertia of the hifi industry at large as the steady, and convenient provider.
Perhaps modernity is part of this tendency in light of the thinking that holds what’s new is necessarily better, while at the same time being instrumental in keeping the wheels of said industry turning in ever-ongoing consumerism. Mixing old and new, making it a partial DIY-approach (furthering a lack of convenience), potentially very large speakers - all-horns at that as a minority principle, and at prices that may easily break the rule of "you get what you pay for" (or certainly prices that are far removed from the typical high-end realm) - all of which stirs the pot in ways I’m sure to make many an audiophile feel uncomfortable or strangely alienated, for a variety of reasons.
Above quote I find expresses a freedom of approach that goes contrary to many a coagulated way in much of hifi; how do we attain some of the *best* sound out there going with horn speakers, size and most everything else be damned.
I wouldn’t consider Klipsch unless entry-level. Avantgarde is also entry-level horn with crazy prices.
Above quote I believe should be seen in the context of its addressor, not to make it all-relative, and the aspiration sought. Entry-level to one may be perfectly suitable for others, and yet isn’t it a provoking or intriguing thought that what we deem close to sonic excellence may dwarf next to offerings of another kind, not necessarily at elevated price levels yet at the expense, in a sense, of much bigger size.
The Shearer horn designs are pretty much the best horns get but they are not small small horns are wrong horns.
Would love to get my hands on a pair those Shearer’s in some iteration - we’ll see how that turns out in the future.
You want a fully horn-loaded system any ported box is a compromise not really worth having if performance is the true goal.
Incorporating all-horns in a domestic environment may be more about a change in mentality (and priority in regards to interior decoration) than whether it’s really sonically feasible. In that light certainly my recommendation would also be to strive for all-horns to really get to know what horns qua all-horns according to their true definition are capable of.
That being said I find there are modern hybrid offerings that perform very well in distancing themselves from all-direct radiating solutions in terms of dynamics and yet being quite coherent (in some respects even more so), like JBL’s 4367 (I like them in particular) and 4429. The M2’s from JBL are fancied as well, and PBN Audio looks interesting. From what I’ve read Audiokineses speakers are also fine offerings.
I listened to these yesterday at Listen UP Denver:https://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/en/products/duo-series/duo-xd.htmlThey list for $45k, they were offered to me by Scott Gennaw at $30k. They have been on the showroom floor for about year so I don't know if they are the very latest model. Impressive, but not for me. Tell Scott that Cliff sent you.
I’d be looking at vintage Altec over Klipsch. I’ve owned all of them and the best are the 500 cycle horn (511) systems like the Heathkit designed Legato and Altec Laguna or A-7 ( Magnificent) Maybe harder to source than Klipsch. Better yet, get the parts and build your own mock up to suit you and your room. Research the different LF systems. 2-15’s sealed, 1 15 in A-7 horn, Onken. Not as hard as you’d think.
But sadly with horns, the audiophile market isn’t offering many worthy of purchase unless you want a hybrid horn and honestly if I had to go that route I would buy a conventional dynamic
interesting. What are the problems with Hybrid system like JBL 4429/4430/4367. what are the advantage a full ragne horn system?
roxy54 never mentioned rare or costly you did. I can put something together that’s better than most audiophile horn offering for about 2000. And of coarse system end goals are what matters I want a great sounding horn good is pretty easy to find most any horn is good.
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