I'm still mystified...

Thats the new CHEAP buyers deal you should pay Paypal fee and shipping.Its time for these buyers to get a life.

Kind of an old thread but honestly, I don’t know how this whole setup makes sense to you guys. I’ve NEVER gotten anything close to what I consider a fair price on my sales, have to deal with constant downward pressure on price and lowball offers, and yet when I am able to get a selling price that isn’t lower than my absolute rock bottom I have to pay Audiogon and Paypal feels. My last sale had over $800 of fees. To minimize the pain I did put "Add 3% for Paypal Fee" in my add, and the buyer just didn’t do it. So effectively the price that sold for was $370 less then I had requested.

I think it is pretty stupid to have to ask buyers to add 3% in Paypal, but it’s also damn near impossible to negotiate a price that covers a fair value for the item plus 3.5% for Audiogon and 3% for Paypal. The reality is Audiogon and other sites are 100% a buyer’s market, and rolling everything into one negotiable price pretty well ensures that you will get screwed as a seller. End rant.

where I live, many major brand gas stations charge less if you use cash, many restaurants and retail stores add/subtract 3% depending on cash or credit card.  maybe I'm just used to this type of transaction, plus again, this is a hobbyist site, mostly non professional sellers.

Agreed
All I can say is try pulling that stunt on Ebay and see how long you last.

Maybe it is just me but I just do not agree that is all just about the out the door price.
Anybody who even has the mentality that they think they can try and charge a buyer THEIR legal obligated PayPal fees does not deserve my business and will not even get a look in.

Its all just in the mind I admit but why even take the chance you will alienate potential buyers in this terrible market right now.

If 3% is make or break to you then maybe you need re-examine your price to begin with.

What's the difficulty here guys?  Just add the 3% to your asking price and offer a 3% discount for cash.  Simple stuff seeing as both PayPal and Visa/MC don't allow merchants to upcharge for using their services.  I'm surprised Audiogon hasn't stopped the ridiculous 3% upcharge crap considering the potential problems.

OK.  Don't buy.  Sounds like a good solution.

It’s all negotiable and all that matters is the out the door price. 

It works both ways. If somebody wants to come by and pay cash, should they have to pay the full price with PayPal fees included in the price? If somebody sees a paypal surcharge, then pay by check and don’t pay the fee. It’s the buyers choice.
Also, when you go buy a car, you don’t know what the out the door price is until you know what taxes you will be paying, registration fees, etc.. all you know is the cost before all the fees/taxes attached.
Have you ever tried to buy an expensive item with a credit card? Some dealers will want to try and charge you for the credit card cost. It all depends on the markup and what they make on the transaction if they can pay the fee or not.

No that’s not what they are doing. The people upset with sellers who add Paypal fees in their Audiogon ads but do not apply this reasoning to other products and services they purchase are using poor judgement about what is important and what is not and are unlikely to confront business owners or utilities or government agencies about excessive or undisclosed charges, IMHO. That is their right, but they may miss out on some really good audio deals over nothing, IMHO.

"...refuse to do business with these ripoff artists! If you don’t, eventually the fees and taxes will exceed the cost of the item or service you purchase."

That is exactly what many of those who do avoid sellers with PayPal fee clause are doing. Maybe skipping the seller with PayPal fees is the first step towards avoding this anticipated problem.

I have NEVER seen this kind of "hidden fee" or "extra fee" behavior in the industry with audio electronic equipment.

Saying "sales tax" is part of this thing is not a good example because you have sales tax with any item purchase you make locally in your own state.

I can only think that you guys are not paying attention to the receipts you are receiving every day. Yes sales tax is charged on every purchase you make and it is almost never included in the price the seller quotes to you before the purchase. Why doesn’t that upset you?

When you go to a restaurant the menu gives you a price for your meal and then the owner adds sales tax when you pay for it and you are also expected to pay 15% or more to cover the cost of having someone serve you your meal. Shouldn’t the restaurant owner include that in the price on the menu? Shouldn’t paying his/her employees be his/her responsibility?

Have you ever looked at your utility bills? There is a list of taxes and fees you are required to pay in addition to the charge for water or phone service or electricity that you use.

Get the oil changed in your car and your bill will include various environmental and disposal fees.

I could go on, but you get the idea. Don’t deal with people who add Paypal fees if it upsets you, but understand that Paypal offers much greater protection and benefit to the buyer than the seller. Just look up some of the Paypal threads on this forum.

Don’t just meekly accept all the taxes and fees added to purchases you make every day, refuse to do business with these ripoff artists! If you don’t, eventually the fees and taxes will exceed the cost of the item or service you purchase.

That is the point Uber. Perhaps to get some to think about it as a positive as folks are missing out if they stick to a “negative” mind set on something that can actually be good. Just food for thought on this thread. 

Or if they only accept check or money order?

What if PayPal was included in their asking price but they offered a 3% discount for payment by check or money order?

I won't buy from them. PayPal is doing them a favor by procuring their money taking on risks and scammers. Then they have the audacity and gall to make the buyer pay all their fees!!!! Come on.. Burns me up those cheapskates. Yeah it's you I'm talking too. Pinch a penny till it hollers. If the products were low margin markup items I could give them a pass. But a $5000 amp or $10k speakers? No integrity and a red flag for problems concerning the quality and status of the unit. Their 9 may be closer to an 8 or a 7. And they may add padded shipping costs as well. Everyone should boycott them No thanks. My big pet peeve here. Shame on you.

If a seller's asking price includes Paypal fees, do you automatically discount the asking pricing by 3% if paying by a no fee method?  As long as the seller's fee position is clearly noted in the ad, I don't see a problem. 

I think majority of you are missing the point but its all good.

I along with many others will simply skip any ad that states " buyer pays PayPal fee".

You REALLY want to limit your potential sales in that way?

But just my opinion, what do I know??

Not every time is PayPal fee added just because you have another option. This is the first ad that I randomly opened.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis953gj-accuphase-a-60-amplifiers-pair-solid-state

I assume that "shipping cost determined after the purchase" could be figured out before the purchase, once someone is a truly interested buyer. For this particular ad, I would think that shipping would be a little more than just a few dollars.

I never let it bother me, I just go with the flow of the other person's situation. no point. Life has enough other hassles that are far more important and/or difficult to negotiate. No need to add to the pile. :)

@grannyring 

+1

I once paid for a power cord, and received an email that it would not be shipped until I sent the additional $2.65 paypal fee that I had forgotten to include...

totally agree grannyring. I had assumed, maybe wrongly, that the outrage was for sellers who did not offer payment options other than paypal, but had the 3% fee as a mandatory add on...

tomcy6,

Your view is correct. The difference between two approaches is that geoffkait stays in realm of non-sensical bickering on both sides. I apologize for that. At the same time, not allowing calls for deaths and suggestions of other party’s suicide is not entirely invaluable, I think.

Regardless of that, people have different approaches when buying things. Some negotiate and feel great that they managed to get the price down. Some just want quick and simple transaction with nothing else involved and care a little less about a few extra dollars they may lose in the process. No back and forth offers and counter-offers, adding fees on the advertised price, etc. It is just how some of us are. We all like some game and this one with PayPal fees is not the one for me. I am glad to see that I am not the only one but do not think that those who do not mind PayPal fees clause are wrong at all.

Here is a good example of what I am talking about. The paypal fee on this item is over $350! The seller gives you a way to save money if you want and priced the item reasonably. What could ever be wrong with that? It’s all about choice. If you don’t care about paying the fee and want the convenience, then go ahead and pay by paypal. If you want to save money, send a cashier check. All of us get what we want and the seller is being very smart by offering options.

I dont know the seller and just just picked the first new ad I saw listed.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis959j8-dynaudio-c4-signature-platinum-w-crates-full-range

Some sellers are offering items at very attractive pricing with no additional room for the 3% fee. Budget minded Aphiles are then given the option of paying by check, cashiers check, bank transfer etc... to save another 3% on the purchase which for some is very attractive. I like the choice and opportunity to save even more money. A $5,000 item will add another $150 in paypal fees. That is a lot of money.

No reason for this to upset anyone. I suppose I look at the glass half full, not half empty here. That may be the difference. This is done quite often with credit cards. The vendor often offers a savings to buyers who pay by cash or check. The vendor is simply passing on the savings of avoiding the credit card fee. Same sort of thing. Very common and I like it.

If an item is priced rather high with the only payment method accepted being paypal and the fee paid by the buyer, then you can offer what you feel is a reasonable price. Wether you pay the paypal fee or not is really immaterial as it always comes down to the total cost of a purchase with fees such as shipping and paypal being part of the equation and decision.

This is what I do. If I find an item that I want, priced right but wants 3% PP fees, I ask what the shipping cost is, then total it up, deduct 3% to 5% and make them the offer. It works just about always.

I do think people forget that when they buy a product at MSRP, shipping and transaction fees are included in that price.

That's right. It shouldn't be any different when we are selling. It's a business transaction and the seller should factor PayPal fees into his/her price.
Seeing that "add 3% for PayPal" really irks me.
   But, many times the seller has lowered his price slightly when I've asked. They know the 3% is out of line.

Saying "sales tax" is part of this thing is not a good example because you have sales tax with any item purchase you make locally in your own state.

Sellers like to have the asking price as low as they can to attract buyer attention and further down the ad add the additional fees that are part of the transaction. This is not unusual because there are few things that you can buy without paying some kind of additional fee.

The only place I have seen this kind of "standard" seller behavior is with complicated stuff such as selling cars, or selling a large installation/implementation service, or even selling real estate, real estate loans, etc.  I have NEVER seen this kind of "hidden fee" or "extra fee" behavior in the industry with audio electronic equipment.

Nobody is getting mad, at least I think not.

What I am trying to get across and it appears to be shared by some is that just saying in your ad that you want the buyer to pick up YOUR paypal fee tab is offputting.

In todays hard fought market place why on earth would you do ANYTHING to potentially reduce your chance of making a sale.

As I have said, its all just psychology......

glupson, so let me get this straight, you don't mind making 1,000 posts of questionable value bickering with geoff, but you won't deal with someone who adds Paypal fees to his asking price?

What do you call what you and geoff do, if not playing games?

Airlines have adopted similar approach a few years ago. Say it is cheap and then add all you can.

With all that, I also skip ads that mention PayPal fees. Just as a principle. It comes across as seller trying to play some little game and I do not need new friends to play with. I just want to give you money while you give me an item.

Sellers like to have the asking price as low as they can to attract buyer attention and further down the ad add the additional fees that are part of the transaction. This is not unusual because there are few things that you can buy without paying some kind of additional fee.

Buy a pair of speakers at your local dealer and that $1,000 cost you agreed to becomes $1,070 when he rings it up due to sales taxes.

It’s nothing to get angry about. Costs for the seller can vary depending on whether the buyer can pick up the item at the seller’s house and pay cash vs shipping across the country and paying with Paypal. Don’t get mad, offer the seller what you want to pay including Paypal and shipping and see if he accepts your offer.

mr_m
I did see a dealer list an item on here once where not only did he ask the buyer to pay the paypal fees but the audiogon fees as well, seriously.

I did send him a message about the absurdity of that but he did not bother to reply

I was just wondering. If it is "ok" by Audiogon standards to let sellers add a percentage for Paypal fees, would it be "ok" to charge the buyer the fee for the ad also? I wonder how far my ad would or wouldn't go if I did this. lol.....Just sayin'.

When I buy a car at a dealer, new or used, I only discuss final out the door price.  That’s all that matters here. Final delivered price. We’re amateur sellers so I don’t worry about the sellers selling format or how they reach the final delivered price. 

Not at all,I have already stated I sell a fair bit and ALWAYS do not charge PayPal fees and never will.

It is all kidology but you need to work the mentality and buyers just see it as another cost they should not be paying. Just add the fee into your price and do not even mention fees.
Try that on eBay and see how long your ad would even last never mind actually completing a sale.

So my shoes fit perfectly thank you!

It’s no different than shipping costs - some include them, while others don’t. When I post an ad it includes any transaction fees. When a buyer offers and I am willing to do a counter offer, it usually includes the buyer paying any fees associated with the transaction as it changes the transaction completely.

If I have a product and offer it at an amazing deal, I usually list a bottom dollar number as what I want to pocket. It is then up to the seller to determine the proper payment and he/she can avoid fees by doing a check or other form of payment.

I do think people forget that when they buy a product at MSRP, shipping and transaction fees are included in that price. When it comes to resale, sellers normally don’t want to pay it as they only view it as eating into their sale potential. It’s always interesting how the shoe fits when its on the other foot.

bcoz seller can specify whatever one wants in his terms and conditions and you, the buyer can decide if okay or not to proceed.

+1 chayro
+1 uberwaltz
Matches my views exactly! These sellers that state "paypal add 3%" are basically cheapskates. I don’t want to deal with them at all because this is a warning flag as to the type of transaction that can happen (if something goes wrong, their personality behavior is influenced by a "cheapskate" attitude).

It is one of my pet hates for sure.
I make a point of usually stating in my ads, no PayPal fees!

It does not matter what I look at and how great the price maybe, if it says buyer pays PayPal fee its move right along time.
Shortsighted maybe but it just irks me and I am very high on principle ... Lol.

It is a pet peeve of mine as well. I am not going to negotiate. I use buy it now button or offer the asking price. If the price is fair I pay it. If the seller asks to pay their fee I skip the ad.

While I find it annoying, ultimately my buying decision is based on final price, not how it is added up to. I’ve noticed more restaurants and gas stations changing less if you pay cash..

A seller needs to figure paypal fees into the final selling price, which, IMO, should include the fee at no additional charge.  If a buyer wants to negotiate lower, the issue of the fee comes into play.  As Dweller1 pointed out, if you don't like it, don't do it.  

I generally agree. I will only ask the buyer to pay the paypal fee when I offer payment by check or money order as an option.  for lower cost stuff, I cover the paypal fee. but if a seller is offering a great price then I will still purchase. 

+1