DC Step>Dave,thank you for your help.
Mr.Porter> I sincerely hope I didn't put you on the spot when I first mentioned your informative post.
I should apologize to my dad.Because I didn't hear difference's I thought that he may have deceived himself by wanting to hear a difference.Well your system certainly exceeds my present budget but it is good to know that in selecting the correct equipment one can still enjoy its sound after 20 years.
As a 24 year old I may be a little late coming to this hobby
but I have a passion for the arts,especially music and I am about to take the plunge.I hope I can count on all you sincere,knowledgable,nonegoist people for help and support.
I thank you all |
GoGirl, thanks. Experience hearing many rigs/audio systems lets a person get a feel for different equipment and what is possible.
The differences in sound your dad is focusing on are like a woman looking at the stitching on a dress. Men would be completely oblivious to it. Reverse the situation; you could care less, but your dad is analyzing the stereo critically. You have to be brutally honest with yourself. Will you likely turn into a person who wants to sit and scrutinize the sound? If not, then don't stress over it. It's very likely that many, many combinations of gear will thrill you. If that changes over time, then you can play the Upgrade Game.
No special expertise is needed to put together a great stereo (but it's always wise to let the experienced help). But, after you do it a few dozen times you'll get better. Or you can let an "expert" do it for you so that you'll forever be paralyzed by the fear of making a mistake in changing anything. :) |
24 is NOT a late start. You're proabably ahead of the curve.
Dave |
Mr.Schroeder,When you say let the experienced help.It reminds me of my boyfriend buying these big round cylinders because his experienced stereo dealer told him it would improve the bass.It didn't happen.He now tells me he needs sub woofers.
Can audio dealers be trusted.
As for gear,its analog that thrills me,digital chills me.
Did you build the room just for your listening pleasure?? |
Gogirl, There are gradations of "professional" everywhere one looks. I have found most audio dealers to be very sincere, helpful and knowledgeable. Sometimes it's very difficult for the dealers to know precisely what the customer's precise definitions of "lots of bass" etc. mean. Terminology can be tricky, as is evidenced by occasional arguments here over such things. The more knowledge you bring into the store, the more they can apply their experience and knowledge to help. No, I've never been an audio dealer. :)
One thing that might be helpful is for you to get names of components, then look at reviews/recommendations online to see what the consensus is. Certainly if there is a general concern there are many helpful people here on "Agon" to help. A review may state, "The low end was a bit shy..." and someone here will say, The bass sucked..." Well, maybe not THAT drastic! Neither statement tells you that the speaker could only go down to, say, 40Hz and was incapable of making the booming low end.
You can check out "Specifications" of components - the performance parameters at the end of manuals, and often times listed online with speakers, amps, etc. With speakers, before buying you can look up the specifications and see what the "bass response" is - how low and how high the bass goes.
A simple scale to assess how much "ooomph" in the low end a speaker will have:
Down to 50Hz - phhhht. no "boom" to speak of
Down to 40Hz - getting there; this is the point at which a fair number of audiophiles say, "Below this point it's not that critical," since there's a ton of nice sounding bass happening at this point.
Down to 30Hz - Now this speaker is getting good. It's going to have some visceral feel to it and when cranked up you'll begin to feel the vibrations. Many audiophiles want speakers which can generate bass at least in the 30Hz range.
Down to 20Hz - now down into subwoofer territory, or speakers with huge drivers (i.e. 12", 15"). (There are other technologies to do this, but I'm simplifying). Speakers which can go from "20-20" or 20Hz (super low) to 20,000Hz (super high) are considered true Full Range speakers.
Below 20Hz - this is getting into very costly, huge speakers usually. These speakers sometimes have subwoofers in separate enclosures/cabinets or have subs built right into the cabinet. It's very common for people with smaller speakers which can't do the low bass to supplement with a subwoofer or two. I tend to prefer a full range speaker over smaller speakers with subs. But it's not a huge deal when you have made the commitment to major upgrades every six months, like you said, right? :)
So,... check the specs of the speakers you have and you can tell if you will need to add a subwoofer to get your low end sound.
Yes, the room was built specifically for two channel audio. I had never built anything prior - the change of homes and the space to do it motivated me. It looks simple/straight forward, but I put the majority of the effort into the walls, ceiling, etc. It would have been an oversight to not put in surround (7.1), but 95% of the time I listen to two channel. I wired the room for cable but haven't hooked it up. I enjoy reading more than TV; watch a movie on the 100" screen maybe once a month. The room is so quiet that I can hear if a light bulb filament is buzzing.
I enjoy the experience of walking into that room every time. I had a nice compliment paid from a speaker manufacturer who came by three weeks ago and was using a laptop and analyzer speaker calibration equipment) to set up some special speakers for review. He said that the room sounded like a mastering studio. I have been in a couple recording studios and I do feel that I ended up with a good acoustic space. I built it to be acoustically isolated from the rest of the house; the utilities are on the other side of the wall and they cannot be heard. My boys' bedrooms are above and they can sleep while I play music at whatever level I like.
It took me 8 months and a tremendous amount of learning and work, but it turned out exactly as I had hoped. I can understand (again, as many, many here at Agon) the excitement, frustrations, etc. of working one's way up over the years to achieve an excellent system which makes the hobby very fulfilling. When I was in college I thought I would never be able to own a high end rig. I worked for 20 years putting in about $500 to $1,000 per year on upgrades. I could have put in more but chose to allocate my resources otherwise. When people see the rig (old pics and components shown; sorry!) and realize it cost the price of a nice automobile they have a tendency to be shocked. I keep telling them, "...twenty years."
I and many others here are living proof that with patience one can successfully reach wonderful dreams! Now, lately I have been thinking that if I work the same system I could in about 15 years possibly have a classic car. In less time I could have a nice cycle.
Enjoy the pursuit of the audio dream now, because life can throw serious changes at us. Health, marriage, motherhood, can all influence. The beauty of audio is that it's adaptable, you can fit it in somehow almost anywhere, and there are usually excellent products for every niche.
If you have the name of the speakers, there are people here with expertise and experience who can suggest good subwoofer matches.
I've enjoyed chatting; I am going to bow out for a while. I will let some others share. There is a tremendous wealth of knowledge here. |
As a 24 year old I may be a little late coming to this hobby I started in this hobby right around that age too...it's certainly not late. Now I'm twice your age and have over 24 years into it. I've definitely settled into certain preferences and have held onto the components that fulfill them for almost a decade of that time, though I continue to tinker and try alternatives now and then. You've gotten some really good advice in this thread and I've enjoyed reading many of the responses to your queries here. Thank you for contributing. I'd definitely agree with those who advocate the more 'relaxed' approach to listening and enjoying this hobby. You will find out what matters to you and what doesn't with time and experience. No need to rush things as it's all good if it's about the music. If the gear or the hobby takes you away from the music, I'd say it's time to reevaluate your participation in the hobby (unless, of course you enjoy that aspect of it). There are certainly those who take great pleasure in tweaking and obsessing over the gear itself, and the performance of the gear for gear's sake. There's nothing wrong with that if its what you enjoy, go for it. I've always been in it for the enjoyment of music and just as soon have the gear disappear (metaphorically and physically, though the latter is a bit of a challenge). It's nice to see younger people interested in this hobby, enough to participate in a thread like this. There are a few others here too so you're not alone. Wow, an analog junkie too. Nothing wrong with that, but keep an open mind as digital has come a long way over a short period of time and continues to advance (meaning better performance available at more affordable prices). By all means, pursue the analog though if you have the desire and patience you will be greatly rewarded. You should try to attend one of the larger audio shows like RMAF in CO (October) to see and hear the range of some of what is available...take your BF and your dad! Though the hotel rooms and short setup period are not the best place to judge a system, the vendors do a pretty good job, considering that handicap. I don't go often, but it's certainly fun once in a while. There are other shows as well - CES/The Show probably the biggest of them but you'd have an awful lot to filter out there. As far as trusting dealers; just like people there are good ones and not so good ones. Pointing at an agenda ($) is an obvious detractor to seeking advice there, though that is certainly not always the case. Real-world advice, as in what you might get here in the forums, could also come with its own agendas and detractors to some degree, but in most cases they are not driven by commerce (although they certainly can be). If you participate in the forums long enough, and get involved in building your own system at the same time, you'll get to know various folks here and get a sense of where they're coming from. Have fun! |
Mr.Schroeder,Thank you for sharing your knowledge,patience and wisdom with me.I sincerely hope you enjoy all you have accomplished.Speaking with you has humbled me. |
Jax2,Thank you.I may do just that.Going to shows should be fun.I mentioned to my dad that I joined Audiogon.He asked me not to embarrass him.He doesnt have my user name but he will figure it out soon enough.Growing up he would allow me to sit and listen with him.When his buddies came hear to listen and i entered the room most times he would ask me to leave if I didn't respond he would say i told you to leave,now go girl
Hence the name.
I had no idea that there are so many audio people with knowledge that will take the time to help a novice.I thank you all again |
I had no idea that there are so many audio people with knowledge that will take the time to help a novice.I thank you all again You will dizzy yourself with the vast number of opinions here. Ask what may occur as a very simple question and you can get a plethora of diverse answers and individual tomes as to why each is the correct one. OK, I exaggerate, but not by much. Take heed of the advice you are getting that implies that there are no "right" answers - just have fun with it and enjoy the music along the way. That's what matters. It can be a whole lot of fun as it really can enhance the enjoyment of the music you love. Your description of how you came up with your identity saddened me, but OTOH I am inspired as well to see how you persevered in spite of the discouraging words. There is a poetic irony in this, I'm sure you realize. Anyway, I hope your dad is proud to have inspired you to participate and share in his passion. It would certainly be very odd if he found your interest to be an embarrassment. Your questions here are intelligent and show obvious interest in participating and learning. How could he not be proud? |
Wow, this thread went from a question of low-hi fi to Elizabeth saying "Mid fi: (The struggling audiophile)", to another poster questioning if he should buy a 10k cd player or help typhoon victims...LOLOLOL....Classic... |
Gogirl said:
"...As for gear,its analog that thrills me,digital chills me..."
Digital is harder to "do right" but when you hear it "right" you will be pleased. Still, analog is the reference, so you're starting in the right place. If you insist that you digital equal your analog, then you'll be getting good sound everywhere.
Dave |
GoGirl,
The only advice is to enjoy the music regardless and don't let the technical details or worries about what you might be missing drag you down. You are young and have plenty of time to achieve your ideals. Take it slow and easy and enjoy the ride! |
Jax2,I should have been clearer in my last post.This is all about 12 years ago.My dad told me that wanted me to leave the room because of all the cigarette smoke.In later years he did admit that do to my inquisitive nature,I would always be asking questions about the Artist and disturbed the other listeners.
Now this brings me to Zigonht's post.Being you have made zero contributions to this forum,why complain.
I will try to get you involved.
Zigonht I looked at your system what END would you say your at? |
back to the original question, here's my poor attempt at defining hi, medium and low end:
Low end: does what it does poorly
mid fi: does what it does well
hi end: does everything very well but still no two setups sound the same...still subject to personal tastes and biases regarding what sounds "best" |
No complaints, just an amusing post so far.
Seriously though I go back to AlbertPorter and Chadnliz post. I agree with both of their statements. In addition I believe the low,mid,high designation pertains mostly to the individuals perception of his or her own system and the sound they are trying to get. You can ask 15 different people what designation they would tag a certain "system" and get 15 different responses. Is a $5000 system hifi? To some yes.. Is a $30,000 system hifi? Again maybe to some, but not to all.
Getting back to Gogirls question-"What end would I say I'm at?" To myself I think I put together the best system I could(after research, opinions from here and of coarse the very important factor my budget. The equiptment based on the price factor of judging I would put in mid-fi..The satisfaction I get when I watch a movie with my family and see the expressions on my childrens faces(5,5 and 7ys) during scenes of a Pixar film, then I put it right up there in the hifi category of the big boys....Again just my individual opinion of my own system..
I think that for what the purpose my system was set up for. I am getting the best return on investment given my budget when I set it up. (Its a dedicated room which also had to be built that had to be taken into account especially by my wife:))
|
Gogirl, if you happen to find your tourmaline hairdryer missing then it might be time to examine your relationship....but be very careful - between you and the tourmaline hair dryer - a true audiophile will always choose the hairdryer... |
Shadorne,Your humor is lost on me.My hair dryer is a Chi but possibly your dryer blows more hot air. |
This is not the place to be posting that kind of fluff. Go to the thread: "Hair Dryers. What does the Typical Audiophile Use?" where your contributions will be given the attention and respect they deserve. |
Zigonht,If this hobby allows one to spend enjoyable time with children then the hobby itself is HIGH END.
As Albert Porter so eloquently stated in his contribution to this thread.The only true perfect music is his son.Enjoy your time with your children,they will always remember it.
|
High, medium or low-end can have many variables (i.e.: design & material usage, build quality, price, etc.), but has everything to do with the reproduction of recorded music. It’s that simple. The goal of all audiophiles and all “high-end” audio designers is to reproduce recorded music with the highest fidelity to the original performance as possible. Currently, it is not possible to duplicate true “live performance reproduction” so true high-end is more subjective than it is objective. Whatever it takes to achieve high fidelity is the ingredient(s) to “high-end.” There is no objective consensus as to which “recipe” offers the best approach to the end goal. Cost/price, by necessity, will almost certainly be associated with the pursuit of the high-end goal. However, as Albert stated, there are always exceptions, and fortunately, these exceptions are pretty much readily available (to achieve subjective methodology). |
Gogirl you need to read this - Hair Dryer for SaleWell - if you you use a "Chi" hair dryer then at least yours is not yet for sale on Audiogon. This one is apparently a Conair. There is hope yet! |
Shadorne, funny, I owned and used a Zerostat back in the day. It did do what it was advertised to do, but I never found static on vinyl to be such an earth shattering issue for me with my custom and quite proprietary record cleaning technique (see other thread on record cleaning techniques), so the zerostat went its way. |
Very interesting thread. Here's a (hopefully) simple question: According to the local standards, what is the most that can be spent on a system that is appropriately posted in the "budget-minded" category? (I realize this is to some extent relative to the owner's economic circumstances, but an non-relative figure might be helpful and interesting.)
John |
I can't answer maximum dollar invested and still quality as "budget." I think that's the responsibility and opinion of the system owner.
I put together a system for a friend, all used equipment bought through Audiogon. Total was about $1500.00 and sonically it qualifies as high end.
It's been four years since we did that. He plays it every day, all day and has had no reliability issues. A bit of luck here I think :^).
I still get thanks for putting it together, he was about to go to Best Buy and drop nearly that much on junk. |
Tough question, and very personal I may add. It depends on who you will talk to ....I guess and what we concider budget minded system. From my perspective ( others might disagree ) and limited experience with most that is out there. I would quess that decent, budget system that I could put together and enjoy, could be put together in around $2000 to $3000 range. Including all components, cables and speakers.
Mid-price - for around 6K
Hi- for around 15K+
These would include components that I am familiar with and performance/price that reflects my preferances, taste and pocket.
Now let it rain........:) |
Isn't it fun when you can do that for someone Albert? It's a similar thrill introducing someone to your system who you know appreciates live music. They expect it to be be clearer and louder but are unprepared for the reality - they just didn't know what they didn't know. Which leads to my thought on high end: It begins when one embarks on a journey leaving behind the "clearer and louder" criteria as the standard for quality. Furthermore, I believe success is measured by those times when you blew-off something important because you wrongfully thought you had the discipline to sit down and listen to your system for a quick hour. |
Isn't it fun when you can do that for someone Albert? It's a similar thrill introducing someone to your system who you know appreciates live music. Yes, I agree. I must admit there was bit of selfish motive in putting this together. I wanted to "prove" to him that the limited budget he had could put him in high-fi heaven. The little tube amp I choose to drive the Vandersteen 3A is marginal for this speaker, but since it clips so gracefully I'm the only one who notices it's being pressed a bit too much. It actually sounds very good. The losses it introduces makes for pleasant and emotional listening. Reminds me of my entry level system when I began this crazy hobby. I think one of the biggest problems in high end audio is our failure to draw in the kids. We set the goal for high end and fun so high, that young people are turned off and just listen to their Logitech computer speakers. I always try to support forum thread that advocate experimentation, it's a way to get people involved and thinking about what they can do to be part of the music. |
Here, here Albert! The young folks represent any hope of continuing this hobby (and pretty much anything else) with some kind of integrity, and in turn creating higher expectations from the industry (hifi and recording). I ran into a friend recently at the supermarket which I'd done the same thing for, albeit at a very slightly higher budget. He still has the same system and still loves it over seven years later. No problems at all, and a very modest system. I'm pretty sure at the time that he only spent a bit more than $2K all told. I'm sure I could have done it cheaper but that was his budget. It's definitely a whole lot of fun to help folks in that way. There are so many really excellent products out there and the pricepoint keeps getting lower. By far, the majority of folks have no idea what kind of performance is available to them. As you pointed out, Albert, go to BestBuy any weekend to see how many folks are investing relatively large coin into some definitively lo-fi gear. |
Albert and Jax2, if you go roll around in Head-Fi you'll see a giant community of dedicated, mostly young people, really into high quality sound. A young man in his 20s tweaked my AKG K701s by adding dual-entry Cardas cabling and a Neutrik plug. They're into tubes, high end DACs, vinyl, the whole shebang. Head-fi is definitely the most active audio forum I've found on the web. Start a thread there and it'll be two pages down in thirty-minutes. Anyway, when we're dead and gone I think that music appreciation will still be alive and well, just ever-changing. Dave |
Interesting thread, allow me to muddy up the waters a little more!;) My system consists of:
Arcam Cd23
Audio Research LS15
Audio Research PH3
Linn/Lingo/Ittok
Ortofon Blaupunkt
Music Reference RM9
Spendor S100
+ Video equipment, racks, cables, recorders, etc. Here's the thing, I've never been able to decide whether my system is upper mid-fi or lower hi-fi!!!! Not something I've lost too much sleep over;) but I like to think that I can have "moments" with my system just like Mr. Porter can on his (lovely post btw). |
Dcstep - I've referred over to HeadFi on occasion, but, as you know, discussion there is of all things headphone. Though I appreciate headphones, and related amplification, for what it can offer, I am not a fan of listening that way unless I have to. For me headphones have never rendered an as emotional and as visceral an experience as the illusion a good system creates within a room. So the conversation there tends to not interest me as much, though definitely the membership is younger there than here. I found, in my limited experience there (I think I even have a user ID), that my musical tastes were not as close as the stereotype you might find here (and that may have to do with age?). Bottom line is that I find I have more common ground to participate here. Not age-related, but I have a similar aversion to AudioAsylum, where I find the discussion is so gear-intensive (aside from "music asylum") that it doesn't interest me to participate as much. I think this is a nice balance here. |
Head-fi is a great community of music lovers of all types. There are so many members that a frenzy can start rather quickly, but it's well moderated and the participants generally know their stuff.
I prefer my speaker rig, but the only thing really missing with either my AKG K701 or Ultimate Ears Triple.fi 10 Pros is the slam of the soundwave against my chest. Super musicality, deep bass, sweet soaring highs and huge dynamics are all possible with cans for less than $1500, excluding sources.
Dave |
What I have found is that high end audio occurs out of authentic intention, not price or anything else, although there are rare pieces that are dirt cheap that also get 'elevated', like the Radio Shack Lineum speakers from a few years ago (although Tandy bought out Lineum for a reason...). Put another way, if there is no intention to be high end the price won't make it that way.
It is also powerfully evident that you have to trust your own hearing, but inside of that is the problem of not having heard everything. Its no wonder that high end audio has such a hard time making its way with the younger set. That has to come from inspiration, like it did for nearly everyone on the 'gon.
Most of the people working for me are involved in the local music scene, so in our case we have made some inroads. I often to go to music shows and meet kids that know all about Atma-Sphere. I realize that this is only a local phenomena, but its a start... |
