Intuitive Summits & R.S. Audio Sasons?

The Summits are phenomenal, and I've posted a rather long review about them on Audiogon. If I were an Audiogon member reading that review, I'd have raised eyebrows, but the things said are actually true. If you look at the last few posts to that review thread, you'll see that I'm not the only one who thinks that the Summits are amazing speakers. I've not heard the Sasons.

Thanks Mdhoover,

I thought this thread would fall off the radar, since these two exceptional speakers are not advertised much.

I'm going to arrange an audition of the Sasons and drive out to Robert's place.

The Summits are not ruled out, I'd like to hear both in my rig.

I believe Dale Pitcher, the Intuitive Design owner and designer, will have the Summits at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest in October, and is planning a trip to tour his facility in Wyoming. This may be a good place to hear the Summits and some of his newer designs. I personally have not heard the Summits but have a lot of his other, amazing equipment and am looking forward to hearing them.

I own the Sasons and love them, but have spoken many many times to Dale about the Summits too. They are, as you said, both very very good speakers with very little ad or review momentum, and the designers are top notch customer-focused folks. RSA's Steve Rothermel set mine up at my house and although they take literally weeks (45-60 days of constant signal) to break in (and sound like crap unitl then), they sing from 35hz and up, and are the most transparent transducers I've ever heard. The lowest registers are dialed in via a Velodyne SMS-1 and a PAradigm Servo 15. Steve and Robert have plans for other speakers in the line, inclding a sub someday.

What is your system made up of, and room dimensions? The Sasons would love to have considerable room from the front wall, and breathing room from the sides is beneficial also. Dr Hoover has his Summits closer to his front wall and his getting great results. Now that mine are well broken in (October 06), I may experiment with putting them closer (but I'll mark the floor in detail before I do...they are great in their current spot 7 ft out into the room).

Ted

Thanks Ted,

I feel both these speakers have so much more to offer in musicality than all others I listened to (maybe the Avalons and Veritys come close)

Rig consists of CEC TL-2X, Museatex Bitstream into Audio Horizons TP 2.0 to VAC 220 Standard Sig monoblocks.

A "pair" of Def Tech Super Cube 2's (8" drivers) are in my current setup with Kinima HG-1 monitors.

At the moment, I'm in a smallish room 13x14x8 (nearfield at low volumes) till my living room is finished.

I spoke to Doc Hoover and Dale Pitcher at length about the Summits of course, but would love to hear BOTH speakers somewhere (closer) ?

As a owner of the Sasons myself, I cannot speak highly enough about them. In my experience they are the most transparent 2 way speaker I've heard under the $25k mark. They have bass that just doesn't seem possible for a speaker of their size sounding very full into the lowest 30 hertz range making them much more of a full ranger than the majority of other two way speaker offerings.

Although I have yet to hear the Summits, from a technical analysis they seem to be couple notches below the Sasons. For instance, the Sasons have - Cryoed tweeters, Ultra high end cryoed and impedance matched internal wiring that are matched to each driver, flow compensated front internal baffle ribs that eliminate sound re-entering the back of the woofer cones, no binding post metals whatsoever with a direct wire to crossover direct connect inteaad, rear user adjustable custom tunable ports, custom magnetics on each of the drivers and the obvious front baffle diffraction facets and full granite cabinetry.

IMHO only the Kharmas and Magicos speakers seem to come close to the Sasons in using many of their design implementations, yet even those "uber speaker designs" are missing more than just a few of the purist design elements incorporated within the Sasons. The designers seemed to have rasied the bar of a "designed to perfection" two way speaker, where their goal was to completely excise all of the traditional "weak links" that would otherwise keep a speaker design from being truly transparent.

Rx8man, I would like to spend my two cents. I have owned the Sason's for about 45 days. I can tell you they are in every sense of the word outstanding. I wrote a little review on these 6 months ago after I heard them at RSAD's place in LaPorte. I have owned two different pairs of Avalon's in the past and without a doubt feel that the Sason's are in a completely different league. I have also owned the Sonus Faber Amati's which do not come close to the Sason's ability to render you to musical nirvana. I strongly disagree with Ted's statement that they need 45 to 60 days of continuous play or they "sound like crap". I have 580 hours on mine and they continue to mesmerize me everytime I am in the sweetspot. It is true that they need a significant amount of break-in, however 500 hours gets you very close to their capabilities. The Sason's also do amazingly well in a wide size range of listening rooms. They are chameleon like in that regard. The sound room at RSAD is only about 12' wide and they sounded incredible in the narrow room. I have been in this crazy hobby for about 30 years and have been a musician for 35 years and can honestly say the Sason's sound like music. They provide that rare occurence of really connecting with the performers and the musical presentation. They are the most transparent design I've listened to, and their imaging and soundstaging capabilities are phenomenal, actually spooky. They are lightening fast and extremely neutral top to bottom. I owned the Sason's for a week and realized that my Vandersteen 2WQ subs and MH-5 crossovers needed to go. One word of caution- if there is a deficiency in your system, room or whatever, the Sason's will reveal it without mercy, they are all about the truth.

I strongly disagree with Ted's statement that they need 45 to 60 days of continuous play or they "sound like crap". I have 580 hours on mine and they continue to mesmerize me everytime I am in the sweetspot. It is true that they need a significant amount of break-in, however 500 hours gets you very close to their capabilities.

Rythmace4218,
You are a lucky one. Not sure why you should strongly disagree with my statement, though; it's not debatable in my experience, it happened. You can say you didn't find this to be true in your experience, but I wasn't lying about mine. The good news is that maybe Steve and co are breaking them in more. He made a point of telling me back in October last year that my pair were very fresh, and struggled to find a good position for them when he was here. We even moved the room layout drastically. After a few days I moved everything back. At about the 6 week mark they blossomed into a completely different speaker...like night and day different, and proceeded to mature for 2 more weeks. So...net/net: good news on the newer versions.

I will join you in stating that the upstream components get put under the Sason's electron-powered microscope; if they are good sources, etc. the Sasons will reward handsomely. Things like cable and tube changes are quite evident with these transducers.

I did my much-closer-to-the-front wall experiment but the soundstage depth collapsed too much. I have become so used to the you-are-there 3-D soundstaging that any compromise is too much. But doing this moving had a side benefit: I ended upmoving them slightly back on a diagonal (my system pics are not here yet, but are on another forum) re-laser aligned them, and they snapped into focus even better than earlier.

Glad this thread is picking up steam.

Interesting analysis Ehider, I like that post, and thanks Rhythmace for your input too.

I believe what's being said by what owners have been through before this stop, even before my audition !

A very intelligent group here did their speaker search quite well.

It's a nice alternative to the the same ole speakers that get beat to death on a daily basis.

Hello Post-a-teers!

Thanks Ted, Ehider and Rhythmace for taking time to post your thoughts.

Rx: I've heard rumors over some time you've wanted to make it over this way. Hope you're able to make it at some point.

The break-in thing: The Sasons do take some good time to break in and settle down. We've always said about 500 hours. Up to about 200 hours the Sason are okay - nothing too special - and they can certainly be frustrating if one doesn't keep their sights and expectations set on the 500 hour mark. After the 200 mark, healthy glimpses of what the Sasons are about kind of come and go but...mostly come the closer they approach 500 hours.

Break-in is a funny animal and while it's something that a lot of us experience in our personal systems, it seems most folks don't have enough broad experience to talk about a given product's break-in character in a wide range of installations. I think this is true whether we're talking about speakers, electronics or cables.

As a manufacturer, we're fortunate to have a lot of experience with regards to break-in in a lot of different installations - for us, whether it be our cabling or the Sasons. What we've been able to conclude is that break-in is not isolated to just the component that's been newly installed. To one degree or another, an entire system needs to re-acclimate to the new component. As all the other componentry "centers" around the new component, it's all being "exercised" differently and needs to "break-in" accordingly. I suppose it's kind of interesting this seems to never be considered or talked about. It should be at least an important consideration during the evaluation of a newly installed component. And still, I think that's just kind of the beginning! What about the AC that powers our gear and how that varies from one neighborhood to the next, whether you're in a rural or a densely populated metropolis, etc, etc. Consider that in light of the music we listen to is the AC being modulated and controlled by all the circuitry in each piece of gear. I guess ones head could begin to hurt after a while or, be encouraged that the new piece of installed gear isn't as "broke" as it might sound.

Ha! It's been some time ago but I had one Gent report that a pair of "P"!!! S/Cs took 500 hours to break in at which point he became thrilled with their performance and kept them after many comparisons to other cables. Another Gent reported that after about the 100 hour mark the cables were still sounding less than optimal. At that point he informed me he was ready to send them back. The next day I get another email from him informing me he had left the system playing for an hour or two while he went and did some chores and came back for one last listen. LOL! Transformation and he kept them! His words: "...the darndest thing I've ever heard!" Go figure! I know this, our cabling for example does not, in and of it's self require a ton of break in and they sound pretty darn good cold so, there's definitely more at play here than just the newness of a component.

All this to say I'm never surprised how different people's experiences with break-in differ. There is a myriad of things that contribute to the differing experiences. Getting an idea of others experiences can be helpful to some degree but I would set my expectations or conclusions based on another's experiences given all the variables.

So, in light of that, I wouldn't negate your lengthy process Ted. I'm just glad you stuck it out to get to the pot of gold! On the other hand, Steve and I personally set up Rhythmace's pair and another pair before that in the same town late June. Both Steve and I were surprised at how good the Sasons sounded right away in these new installations. No, they didn't have the magic they are capable of after being fully broken in but they sure as heck didn't sound as un-involving as a new set sounds in our music room or in other new installations we've heard.

So...go figure! Or, save some mental anguish and perhaps wrap your head around what I posted above. LOL!

Hope that helps a bit.

Cheers to all!

Robert
RSAD

Ooops! Correction to my post above. I forgot the word "not". Should read:

"...Getting an idea of others experiences can be helpful to some degree but I would not set my expectations or conclusions based on another's experiences given all the variables."

Cheers!

Robert
RSAD

Ted, all I wanted to convey is that my impressions with the break-in period was quite different from yours. Germanboxers also bought a pair around the time I did and found the majority of break in to be complete around five to six hundred hours. I heard it myself. I would like to add that both of our pairs were " hot off the press", without any break in from the factory. His room and mine although similar in size, are very different. The placement of his speakers were also quite different from mine. I think there are a great number of variables involved with the process that can certainly affect break-in. You were stating your experiences with yours, I was stating my experience with mine. I'm ok your ok. FWIW, my pair of Sason's have never sounded like crap, not even from day one. They certainly sounded different than they do now, but not like crap. What does crap sound like? I think crap could have distinctly different sounds. For instance, " crap hitting the fan " would sound completely different than the sound of " one hand crapping ". Sorry I digressed. In all sincerity, I am glad to hear that the speakers have come into their own and your enjoying them Ted. I think we are both lucky.

Robert and Rythmace4218,
Thanks for the perspectives. Steve knew that I was truly eval'ing these speakers and taking advantage of the generous 45 day trial; we spoke about it very frankly and openly. I'm simply saying they sounded bad enough for me that there was absolutely no way I was keeping these speakers with their pre-42 day sonic signature because they weren't hinting at anything special about to emerge. I have beeen in this 30 years (I'm 53) and have never before experienced a metamorphisis where the butterfly emerges with such incredible beauty. And Robert's comments about being surpised that the Sasons sounded so good day one in your room(s) is further proof that our experiences are quite different but legit. So I'll put this to bed; all I wanted to tell prospective buyers is "hang in there".

Anyway, Rhythmace4218, did you get the newer shorter bodied-Sasons, with the external crossover-in-stand? I assume they sound similar but am frankly glad I own the larger ones; they are now even more of a one-of-a-kind speaker than before. :>)

My Sasons came to life at about 250 hours (they may have had some factory break in). They went from just "sounding-like-music" to "coming-alive", between about 225/250 hours (rather quickly I thought) - but what an amazing change it was. I've had my pair for over a year now and am 100% satisfied. I can't imagine replacing them. They play most all weekend, every weekend and I find it's hard to casually listen anymore - I'm continuously drawn into my listening room. "Engaging" doesn't begin to describe the emotional impact of the Sasons. I've had some decent past speakers (Theil and Sound Labs), but technical bits can't describe the ability of the Sasons to leaving you emotionally exhausted. I didn't know this was possible. Regardless of what other great speakers are out there, you must hear the Sasons.

I'm a new owner of the Sasons with the crossovers in the stands. The sound has changed profoundly over about 400 hours of play. Timbre has become much more accurate.

I play classical clarinet, & accurate timbre colorations make a tremendous difference for how I experience my music. The Sasons project accurate timbre nuances: a viola DOES resonate differently from a violin, drum heads & cymbals resonate differently depending on where they're struck, etc.

I assume that the Sason's are still 'acclimating' to my other components, and their magic will become even more alluring. What fun!

I'm not familiar with the Summits. I can tell you that these monitors profoundly outperformed Focus Audio fs688's and (the original wood, not mixing) Avalon Monitors.
Good luck in your search Rx8man.

Thanks Rubinken, I almost pulled the trigger on a pair of Avalon monitors and the Eclipses before discovering these two hidden gems, glad I waited.

My speaker search has been well-reinforced with unanimous remarks from the various owners (some of which I did not know existed till now) that I would feel very confident of excellent sonics.

FWIW These speakers are on my short list of monitors to audition

I know that Robert and co at RSAD have graciously offered to put me up for a night and hear these for myself

Robert I haven't forgotten the offer let me clear my schedule and I will take you on this

Cheers

Ted, I opted for the original larger model and like you am happy that I did.

Rx8man, the Avalons I owned that I mentioned in my earlier post were the original Eclipses and a pair of Eclipse Classics. Neither of these remotely approach the performance of the Sason's in my humble opinion.

I have been fascinated with tha Sasons ever since discovering the website two years ago.I have learned that there are some fine designers that fly under the radar,which is a good thing if one does not want to pay for advertising,and dealer costs,but is a fan of great products.
I love the apparent design elements,and LOVE the look.Looks alot like my wonderful(and hard to replace based on performance,even with all the new hype)Avalon Ascents,but on a small scale.
Recently I have been pondering the necessity of the larg-ish speaker designs,considering what I have been hearing from some of the smaller "killer monitors".Some of these are fabulous sounding,in the right room!
I heard the JM Labs Micros,Mark and Daniel monitors,Dynaudio monitors(The top line ones,which were superb btw),the Usher monitors,and the "creme de la creme"(my friend just got these) Magico Minis.Really good!!!The VOLENT monitors look wonderful too,but I have only read about them.
My friend's room is 12.5 by 21 feet,and had Kharma 1.0's which were too big.The Magico Minis are magnificent,but NOT perfect,IMO!As good as they are(he has stunning support equipment from Audio Research,top of the line Rowland,Levinson etc)the new woofer/mid unit,compared to the voicing of the Kharmas,have a subtle loss of upper mid air.STILL superb though,and this is just a nitpick.Some other factor could easily be responsible,but I know the previous sound,he had, quite well.The bass,btw,is just fine,and one would never miss a couple of hz,down below. So this brings me to comment on just how much I would love to be able to audition the Sason,as they really do seem to be a stunning,and very well priced,design.As I see it,I would be paying for a factory direct product,and not adding costs for dealer mark-up,as well as the fact that the Magico's cabinet comes from Europe,which also contributes greatly to it's cost.BTW,I am NOT looking for an in home audition,as I am not a tire kicker,and am some time away from purchase,yet these cuties fascinate me.
It seems the Sason is on par,on paper,with design,and build of the Magico,for the most part,I think?This would be HUGE IMO,as the designer seems to have control of more production factors.Am I off here? I love to ponder(for future consideration)potential new products that I would acquire,should my future circumstances change.As of now I have a fine set-up in a dedicated room,but will most likely be in a smaller condo setting down the road.Ya never know!
The Sason could be a giant killer,if it really is that good,and should the pricing stay stable!
Those of you owning it,should be really happy with a well considered "under the radar" seemingly great buy!
Good luck to you!

PS....What will an SE version be?Is this "crossover in base" feature new?I don't see it on the website.

Hi Sirspeedy,

When I spoke to Robert (really nice, accomodating gentleman) he mentioned updating the website was in the plans, no exact date.

I made the same statement you said about the Sasons looking like smaller Avalon Ascents which happens to be not only my favorite speaker, but Roberts too (before he manufactured his own line)

Rx8man,c,mon the Ascents REALLY was your fav design,as well as Robert's,before the Sason?-:)....You are putting me on.No?(just kidding,btw).
A question...What EXACTLY is "Rothboard",other than the play on letters,from the designer's name.
Also,if the front "Rothboard" baffle is 4 inches thick(impressive),is it layered,like how Avalon does it,or one piece?What kind of internal damping is used?I have gone to Home Depot,and checked out Granite slabs,which I considered for component bases.They had a decided PING sound,so I must assume the cabinetry is damped like my friend's Magico.
Finally...What is the current cost,with stands,as well as the SE version cost,and what is the features one can expect to see in the SE version?Sorry for all the questions!!!

I do have a hidden agenda,in that I told my friend to seriously check out the Sason,before he went for the Magicos.His response was that he didn't think they had enough exposure,but BOY would I love to see this really be as good as it seems.The expression from him would be priceless!!
Thanks,and enjoy your fine speaker.

Hi Rx and Sirspeedy.

Rx, enjoyed talking with you too.

Seems it would be good to answer a couple of questions here.

There is a "Short" version of the Sason available. It puts the entire X-over in the stand's back column allowing us to eliminate the isolated chamber for the X-over in the cabinet.
Comparative rendition HERE

The short version is what we'd like to promote but the tall version will remain available. The short version was born out of a couple of things. One being they are simply more manageable for one person. Two, the short version will easily facilitate any upgrade path we offer down the road. The tall version would be fairly more complicated and expensive to do a full Monty upgrade. The upgrade is in the works but it will be a while before we make it available. I'm not prepared to discuss what all the upgrades are but I'm thinking when all is said and done, it will offer performance that will justify a new model designation. The short version will be able to accommodate all the modifications to bring it up to the new model designation. I love the Sasons as they are but I can hear more in my head of what I'd like a loudspeaker to do and I think this can be accomplished. The Sason Ltd will serve as an excellent platform to get there but in the meantime this speaker does enough of what I want that I could be more than content for a very long time.

In case you're wondering, the smaller cabinet does not change the internal volume of the cabinet at all so bass tuning and loading is not affected. There is also no compromise in performance. If anything, I think they may sound a titch better. They seem to disappear better but that very well could be a visual thing complimenting better one of the Sason's sonic virtues to disappear. I suppose another thing that contributes to the perception of it sounding better is that the bass is more impressive - not better but more impressive. You just flat out can't imagine this much extended and excellent bass coming from such a small cabinet.

Well, that's it for now. I've been up since 3:30am and it's 11:20pm now. I'm whacked...LOL I'll post more of what I wanted to say tomorrow sometime.

Oh, BTW...The Accents. They weren't my favorite speaker but one of my favorites. A grand speaker they were. Heard them in Cleveland at a great audio shop called Sound Resource. It was owned by a Gent named Mike Osmond. What a terrific fella! Met him twice in his establishment. Wished I knew what happened to him. I'll probably never forget him and the fun experience of his shop.

Anyway....

Cheers!

Robert
RSAD

Robert,
What does the new short version weigh compared to the tall version?

I own the Sasons too and they have taken me further toward musical bliss than any other speaker that preceded them...and by a significant margin! What the Sasons do for me is combine into one package some of the individual strengths I've chased in other speakers over many years.

My longish audio history example: About a decade ago, when I paired the Avalon Eclipse speakers with Manley Neo Classic 250 tube amps, the improvement in coherence, musicality, soundstaging, imaging, and general "believability" was dramatic compared to my previous Martin Logan ReQuests. Over time, the lack of dynamics and "compression" limitations got me searching for "more". I ended up with Kharma Ceramique 1.0's paired with Atma-Sphere MA1 MkII.2. Dynamics were better and driver compression not so noticeable...overall very musical. Ultimately, the Kharma's lacked something and I sold my entire setup, somewhat disillusioned with the hobby and whether or not what I was looking for from an audio system was even possible. A couple of years passed with only a boom box and I jumped in again, purchasing Magnepan MG3.6r's, coupled to Parasound JC1 amps...loved the sense of speed in transients, musicality was high, bass in my room was decent, dynamics ok, though peaks seemed to be compressed. I had no interest in upgrading from the Maggies during my 3 years with them...until hearing the Sasons. Owning the Sasons, I feel I'm getting all of what I loved about the Avalon Eclipses paired with the Manley Tube amps with none of the restrictions. Dynamics from the Sasons can be absolutely startling, something none of my prevous speakers were capable of. Tonality, musicality, transient speed, soundstaging, imaging and, most importantly, "believability" are all better served by the Sasons than any of my previous speakers.

TedmBrady and I had e-mailed back and forth prior to my receiving the Sasons and I was prepared for a long and difficult break-in, but fortunately, my experience was not so bad... basically enjoyable - though unimpressive - for the first 100 hours, improving significantly by the 200 hour mark, and mostly just amazing me ever since. There were more subtle changes within these timeframes, but I just found them too enjoyable to take much note of them. In other words, there was so much "new information" to discover on all my old CDs brought about by the Sason experience that I really couldn't get too worked up about some of the more subtle breakin changes I thought were happening. I probably have in the area of 750 hours of play time on them now.

I often times sit down for a "quick listen", intending on listening for an hour or so to a few select tracks from multiple CD's only to find myself listening to multiple CD's from start to finish. The Sasons have made it difficult to do the "quick listen" thing for me.

Regards,

Jordan

Composed 10/13/07 12:36pm

Little late coming back to this. Sorry for that. We're buried and I can't find enough days in the hour. I'll be brief.

Sirspeedy Wrote:
...What EXACTLY is "Rothboard",other than the play on letters,from the designer's name.
Also, if the front "Rothboard" baffle is 4 inches thick(impressive),is it layered,like how Avalon does it,or one piece?

Rothboard is a unique material chosen for dissipative qualities. It's a cast monomer board - nothing like MDF or HDF. We chose the material which we dubbed Rothboard because it's very good at not storing energy. Along with the granite, this material contributes significantly to the Sason's "boxless" and open sound.

Sirspeedy Wrote:
...so I must assume the cabinetry is damped

Yes, the cabs are internally damped. One thing to realize though, the frequency at which granite resonates is pretty high. This means as a cabinet it would take one hell of a lot of energy to excite it's resonance - more than a speaker driver is capable of producing. Also I think it's good terminology to say the cabinet panels are damped in three dimensions. In other words, along with the internal damping, each cab panel is of course captured top/bottom/front/back by the other panels and this virtually eliminates the "PING" sound you mention. As the drivers are doing their business, there is no cabinet talk. Rap the Sason cabinet....nothing. Hit the cabinet with a 10lb sledge hammer....well okay, it'll probably break - don't do that.

Rja Wrote:
Robert,
What does the new short version weigh compared to the tall version?

The tall version weighed close to 140lbs. The short version weighs around 100 - 110lbs. Still that's pretty heavy but the size of the speaker is a lot easier and less awkward to handle. Now the stands weigh more but that's not an issue unless you're trying to put the stands on top of the speakers.

So still, as a package each side weighs around 200lbs with speaker and stand. Add sand to the stand's three columns and now you're talking about 250lb a side. Maybe you're saying "Geez! how do you move these things?" Solved: Carpet sliders! These work like a charm. You can almost move these with one hand with the sliders.

Sirspeedy Wrote:
Finally...What is the current cost,with stands...

Mfg. Direct pricing is $8575.00 as a package. And that my friends is an incredible value - believe it or not. As Ehider mentions, there's a lot of things done in the Sasons that no one else is doing including the other speakers mentioned in this thread. These things are all performance related. The "Pure Direct Connect" binding post arrangement is one example and is not inconsequential compared to other binding posts which are little more than audio jewelry that promote convenience rather than performance.

I guess finally, my little 10 second commercial to maybe affect some positive change in high end audio or at least ponder. This grabbed my attention and I thought it worth addressing: "I told my friend to seriously check out the Sason, before he went for the Magicos. His response was that he didn't think they had enough exposure". Now I hope I don't offend anybody but this is kind of a sad commentary. If one is endeavoring to assemble an outstanding music system, does one really approach that based on how much exposure a product has? I think the answer is too many times Yes. Good/bad, right or wrong, it's certainly easy to be motivated by "exposure" - all those cool ads or that over the top review - than it is to invest time and effort in personal experience over a broad range of whatever.

"Certainly, it would seem, the only thing worth expereincing is that product that has the greatest "exposure". And certainly if it costs a gabillion $$$$ it's the best. And it's definately true your gets what yous pay for." To the latter I agree and I think what's "got" a lot of times is SOTA marketing and perfomance that achieves little if anything to raise the bar.

Advertising and all the industry politics that produces "exposure" can do much to drive up the selling price of a given product. When all is said and done, I believe the bar is set too low for what can be expected out of a system component or music system.

Too much in audio is more about image than substance and unfortunately, the consumer buys into it. It costs a lot of money to create an image and something usually has to give to meet a price point. That something is usually performance. Doesn't mean a given product won't sound good but how much better could it sound if more of the cost of creating an image went into the performance of the product. Once you start putting a lot of focus in creating an image you then have to say what you have to say bigger and louder than the next guy. After a while the whole marketing thing just kind of goes nuts it seems. What gets promoted as the greatest thing since spread peanut butter is really only peanut butter flavored paste product...LOL!

The bar is set too low. I say there's more to be had and the bar can be set higher without some of the astronomical selling prices. I think that's what a few smaller companies like Dale Pitcher's Intuitive Design are trying to do. I would also include RSAD in this camp. We're more interested in folks buying performance than marketing. For us, our exposure comes from people's own experience of our products and then by word of mouth end users. Slower process for sure but I trust it's more credible. Anyway....was that 10 seconds? I know I screwed up "brief".

Cheers!

Robert
RSAD

Hi Robert,

Taller speakers get slightly shorter stands and shorter gets taller stands ?

My upstair floor joists should be up to snuff, otherwise I'll be downstairs on the couch !

Rx8man Wrote:
Taller speakers get slightly shorter stands and shorter gets taller stands ?

Correct Pat.

Cheers!

Robert
RSAD

Robert,
Is this a ported design or acoustic suspension?

Hi Rja.

The Sason is a vented design. The designation is a modified QB3 alignment.

We favor bass that sounds like music - not just impressive low frequencies. A lot needs to be considered for bass to contribute appropriately to the music and that's a whole other topic but...

I admire acoustic suspension designs and normally favor that type of bass tuning when kept at a max. of 0.7 system Q.

However, between the particular mid/bass driver we're using with it's modifications applied to it and the modified QB3 bass alignment I don't miss the virtues of a sealed box design and I don't need to tolerate the drawbacks of a sealed box bass loading.

The modified QB3 bass loading of the Sasons: The port incorporates a laminar flow device - fancy talk for loading the port with straws. There's a slight twist to that though which I won't go into.

This straw arrangement is adjustable allowing for tuning the bass to the acoustic environment and/or to taste. Tune the vent in on direction and you accomplish a slower roll off in the bass that reaches deeper and is better damped. Tune it the other way and you can accomplish a warmer fuller sound that might compliment a room that's lossy in the bass.

Most mid/bass driver's peak to peak excursion capabilities will not accommodate this type of tuning. The driver will crap out. Drivers that do have the Xmax capabilities have significant flaws in the midrange that preclude them from being useful in what we wanted to accomplish with the Sasons.

The bass tuning we're doing is a novel approach and works beautifully to serve the music if it's done correctly and specific to a given driver that can handle this type of loading.

Cheers!

Robert
RSAD

Thanks for answering my questions Robert!

Robert,you missed mentioning the benefit of not having the crossover in the same box as the drivers,with the new version Sason.Are you sure you were familiar with the Ascents? -:)

Sirspeedy Wrote:
...you missed mentioning the benefit of not having the crossover in the same box as the drivers...

There is benefit of not having the crossover in the same box as the drivers.

There...done. :)

Cheers!

Robert
RSAD

Robert,

I thought you were going to give a white-paper answer to Sirspeedy like Rja !!

We're disappointed with that brief answer !!

Pat...

You got me...LOL! I'll do your "White Paper" version later today or tonight.

Cheers!

Robert
RSAD

It's nice to see my thread back up again, whatever the real reason was for it being removed
I'll never know.

Well, I'm not sure how much "white Paper" can be written about outboard X-overs and I definitely don't consider myself a write paper writer. So...

Hopefully some of the folks here who enjoy some DIY will find some useful info here that could be applied to whatever speaker they have where the X-over is in the volume of the cabinet.

Isolating the X-over from the internal volume of a speaker has a couple of advantages. One, it goes a long way to mechanically stabilize the X-over from all the resonances that are going on in the volume of the cabinet. If the bass output for example is energizing a room, what do you think is going on inside the cabinet! You wouldn't want to be a fly on the wall inside the cab to find out!

If one is using exotic components to realize the X-over circuit, those components can be pretty sensitive external disturbances. This exaggerates the point but it's a good illustration: Tap an output tube on a pre-amp and you can hear the tapping through the speaker.

So, isolating the X-over eliminates at least a lot of undesirable external influence. It would then be good to also address any mechanical self resonance the X-over produces simply by it's own operation.

Putting a X-over in an outboard arrangement - in a box or, in the case of the Sason, in the stand's back pillar - allows for mechanical self resonance to be addressed. The X-over can be potted in the box or, as in the Sason's stand, it can be loaded with clean dry silicon sand. Loading or potting can also have a side benefit of acting as a heat sink to some degree which can help resistors perform more linear.

Also, getting the crossover completely away from any driver magnets will eliminate any possible interaction between the fields created by the driver's magnet(s) and the X-over.

There's a couple of other reasons for putting the X-over completely outboard but they are specific to the Sason short version compared to the tall version and I already mentioned some of that in one of the posts above.

There...done done.

Cheers!

Robert
RSAD

I am another very happy Intuitive Design user. I own the Delta Summits and they are mind blowingly good. As I had stated previously on the Gon: ""The term "holographic" is the closest (but not completely adequate) adjective I can find to describe the Summit's imaging capabilities. Performers are not only palpable and "right there," but they are also accurately arrayed spatially. Furthermore, there is no real sweetspot in my room which seems ridiculous. I have always been fond of electrostatic speakers since they appeared to create a window to the sound, with outstanding transparency, detail and transients, but I was turned off by the relatively small sweetspot. The Summits somehow possess electrostatic characteristics with box speaker benefits."" Another benefit of the Summits is their ease of set-up and the fact that they are fairly forgiving in regards to placement. My wife has shoehorned me into my offic in a 1940s farmhouse and despite that, the Summits sound magnificent. Like Mdhoover, I have not heard the Sason's either. They sound like wonderful speakers and are part of a wave of speakers incorporating 21st century technology in the name of sonic bliss.

Well Pat (Rx8man), it's been several months now, and it appears as if no one has heard both speakers. This does not shock me, as they both come from small manufacturers. In fact I would have been more surprised had someone heard them both. Is there any follow up? Did you wind up with one pair or the other? Have you had a chance to hear either one or both? Inquiring minds want to know...... :)

Cheers,
John

I've heard both...both are very good

01-29-08: Abruce
I've heard both...both are very good

Well that settles that.
Thanks for the info Abruce.

John :)

Abruce ;
Could you elaborate just a bit ?

I heard both speakers in different rooms, both rooms were very bad, so it was hard to get a feel for them. I plan on listening to the Summits again in a different(better) setup
I'll post after that
Sorry for being so vague

The Summits were speakers that made me go Hmmmmm. I think they may be really, really good if I can trust my ears. The dealer used the new Arcam integrated which is bright to me and so the speakers sounded bright.
But what really showed how good the Summits were was when he switched to Sonus Faber Grand Pianos, a well reputed speaker. Sound was incoherent and all over the place". Like a bunch of notes just thrown together. The direct comparison was eye opening.

Hi John,

My ears are set on a pair of SP Techs or the Delta Summits.

I got a full afternoon audition of the Revelations and was extremely impressed.

They sounded so musically alive, clear and powerful.

Nothing in my 20 year+ experience ever came close to that sense of scale and presence except my buddies G.M. Continuum 3's or the big Avalons.

Thanks Pat, happy hunting. Did you ever get around to auditioning the Sason's? What were your thoughts?

Cheers,
John

Can someone post a picture of the "Pure Direct Connect" binding post.

I have been thinking for sometime of a similar type arrangment to rewire a component of mine - just using the binding post to apply pressure rather than conduct the signal.

I just picked up a pair of Ridge Street Sasons after months of researching these

More to come when I get a better feel for what these can do