Is a high priced Line Conditioner needed
I have an audio store in my house, literally, and I went through the same thing. I ran dedicated lines not because I wanted to I had to old house. I then tried different brands of power conditioners till I found one that I really liked, long story short I won't listen to a system plugged into a wall the sound just sucks. A good power conditioner is mandatory for good sound. A Monster is crap and will muck up the sound. |
Several factors will enter in to it. Where you live and how dependable is the power. What equipment is hooked up to it. I had a Monster surge protector several years ago and it really made the music sound bad. I have no experience with their newer products. I would check out PSaudio stuff, They have a 30 day full refund if not happy. With a wide price range and friendly staff to work with and very helpful. Good luck Pete |
Although I don't know the answer, you bring up an interesting point. I've read that a lot of power conditioners negatively affect a system because of the filtering used. So if that's the case, as you asked, do you need one at all? If you do, what are you needing to either condition and/or protect, and how can you do it with no or the least amount of negative effects? Chuck |
You may need a power conditioner if the power in your lines is noisy or suffers major lag periodically. I am sure the power conditioner manufactures or their devoted fans will tell you it is essential, after all -all of what we do is manipulate power. My personal experience was one that found no benefit from power conditioning no low power drags and most importantly my dedicated lines were noise free. I think you have to ask yourself those questions. There is no mandatory audiophile rule stating that you must have power conditioners. |
I'm not sure what you mean by high priced, but: I currently use a PS Power Plant Premier which can be had for about $800. I have been in this townhome 3+ years and have dedicated lines. Until I installed the PPP, there were easily heard changes in the sound of the system at various times. Most notably, there was a hardness in the upper mids that would come and go along with quick listening fatigue. The hardness was there more often than not. The PPP has removed the hardness and solved the listening fatigue issue for me. In my previous two houses, I had dedicated lines fed from a Topaz isolation transformer (fed from the electrical panel) and that was all I needed for stable consistent good sound. You won't know if your system will be improved or by how much it will be improved unless and until you experiment. |
The bottom line is that your dedicated lines do NOTHING to remove or address spikes, surges, power sags, EFI and RMI riding in from outside your home (although they do reduce interhome interference). In other words, yes, you do NEED additional filtering and protection. I have two power regenerators in my systems and they work quite well to protect the systems and let them sound their best. |
I got a Blue Circle PLC 2X Thingee which is a mighty fine power conditioner that runs parallel to the AC and doesn't limit the power one iota. It's built inside a PVC tube to keep the cost down. You can get the version with the fancy metal casing but be prepared to spend a lot more. It has 6 outlets and I have all my components plugged into it (a no-no for sure) and it's better sounding than going straight into the wall. So, no, you don't have to pay a lot to get a lot. All the best, Nonoise |
I installed three dedicated lines with hot, neutral and ground for each dedicated line. My noise floor dropped dramatically, the sound is wonderful. low level electronics were originally all connected to Monster HTPS 7000 signature conditioner. Each amp had their own dedicated line. The I bought a Transparent audio Power isolator 8 conditioner which replaced the Monster and a noticeable improvement in the sound. Also, my house is the first house off the transformer and my house voltage is very stable. But, the Transparent definitely made a noticeable difference. I am a strong believer in connecting all low level electronics to the same outlet strip or power conditioner into a dedicated line, and the amps to their own dedicated line. You eliminate ground loops and the noise is significantly reduced. enjoy |
| Post removed |
There is only one power conditioner that can really deliver, that won't limit a large power amplifier. It was made by Elgar and was for industrial/commercial purposes, so you have to find one used on ebay, and may have to get it refurbished. It is mechanically noisy, so you have to place it near the breaker box in your house, and run the wiring from it to your audio room. You might have to have an electrician do the work. However. It is easily the best made, and the 3006 can deliver a perfect sine wave at full load of 28Amps at 117Volts. Seems to me there is a 1KVa version as well. No noise, no distortion, no spikes. The principle of operation is sophisticated- well beyond what typically passes for 'high end'. It uses an isolation transformer, a precision 60Hz oscillator that is synchronous with the AC line, a power amplifier and a comparator circuit. If the output deviates from the reference oscillator, a feedback signal is created and applied to the feedback winding on the transformer- the result: a low distortion sine wave free of noise. This is the only conditioner I know of that can handle a set of our MA-2s or MA-3s. Most conditioners I have heard mess things up even when presented with our M-60s as a load, so usually I recommend plugging straight into the wall unless you have an Elgar. |
Jafant, the 'middle of grid' is absolutely irrelevant to the quality of power. The quality of delivered power depends on power lines only. The age of power lines, connectors, isolation, type having the most of impact. Some of the powerlines, depending on 'who's the boss', don't get maintained on time and properly to preserve better profits. They're highly affected by wind and other weather conditions so they could 'kiss' each other and create a surge in nearby dwellings or kill transformer and create outage. |
Moved to a new home 3 weeks ago and have just installed an upgraded dedicated circuit. Main panel is Cutler-Hammer CH series with copper bus bar, subpanel is GE Master Load Center with copper bus-bar. The subpanel is tied to the main with massive 6/4 conduit and I'm using 10/2 Romex (for now,...other options too pricey at 16-25 dollars per foot, with 5 outlets I needed about 150 feet of cable) BUT I have installed an Environmental Potentials EP-2050 on the main house panel to protect everything and an EP-2750 Ground Filter on the dedicated circuit. I have heard nothing but good things about the EP units and that combined with the copper busbar panels should be a nice upgrade in the entire system's sound....very excited to hear the result once i finish unpacking! I'll still be using my Purepower 2000 on the system as a whole but may go straight into the wall for my Edge amp and amps in the Legacy Aeris towers. Ultimately I think I'll move to a Running Springs Audio Dmitri but time will tell if this move can happen.... |
With dedicated circuits, I have found that an easy and effective route to take with very good results is to install a Shunyata Defender (about $200.00) in the unused outlet. This little device cleans up some (inevitable) noise from the AC AND gets your equipment protected without any ill effects on the dynamics. |
Update...went with a new Bybee Stealth (latest revisions) with a combination of Furutech Gold and Rhodium outlets early last week. I had the good fortune of picking up a fully broken in version that had been with reviewer until the week prior on a prior reserve order. The PP is gone and won't be coming back; I am ecstatic and blown away by what the Stealth is doing for my system, better imaging, even quieter and more black backgrounds, increased precision coupled with naturalness of images, instruments and voices,....this unit is beyond my expectations and is without a doubt the best I've had in my system........ |
On my system and in my room it was crystal clear. Evident in the first seconds. I didn't wait too much of the AC Modules in addition to the Holographic and I was astonished by what they did to musical event. These AC modules surprised me a lot. I precise that I'm not a Bybee inconditionnal or fanatic but these ac products work great for me. Barba |
I have 3 dedicated 10 gauge lines for my 2 channel audio system. Honestly thought that was all I needed. Sound was great. Living in Florida, the lightening storms come just about every day this time of year so I sought out a surge protector to protect my equipment and ended up with a PS Audio P-10. Surprised the heck out of me to say the least. With the P-10 in place, I learned that my power varies from 116.5 to 122 volts in any given day which the P-10 corrects to 120V steadily. Also the THD coming in on the line is as high as 4.1 which the conditioner corrects to .01. All of this plus surge protection and EXCELLENT sound sold me on this product. |
A good power condition can really be a marvelous improvement. Most of them I have seen in high end audio do more harm than good, unless they are operated well below 50% of their ratings. This is especially true if you have a high power tube amplifier! I have seen AC conditioners that can run at their full ratings but none of them have been high end audio devices- they have all been commercial/industrial. I find it puzzling that high end audio can't seem to get its act together in this regard! Here is an example of a conditioner that will knock the socks off of any high end audio unit: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Elgar-AC-Line-Conditioner-Power-Supply-Unit-6000-Series-6006B-/111408675313?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19f07979f1 |
A PC is a filtering appliance to be inserted only if you need it . Many high -end electronics mfgs (and their dealers) discourage their use if they can be avoided ... and use them only as an item of last resort. With proper dedicated power lines, upgraded wall receptacles (minimum hospital grade or preferably even better grade ) and audiophile grade power cords, unless the power feed is erratic (eg old apt bldg) why insert another filter? The dealer twigged me into this with an actual A-B demonstration in my own home. By jeezuz, he was right ... Plug the amps and source directly into the wall plug and a subtle veil evaporated. The PC was left out permanently. |
Akg_ca, I don't think I agree entirely with your post. Certainly additional filters can add up to current restrictions. And most high end audio conditioners don't do much more than that. But the one that I linked to in my earlier post is not a filter and can produce an undistorted sine wave at full capacity (15 amps) without distortion or noise on the AC waveform, and can regulate the line voltage as well. They made a bigger one that could handle 29 amps at full capacity! They do tend to be mechanically noisy so you usually have to place them near your breaker box, and run the audio room wiring off of the conditioner. But unlike the ones your dealer demonstrated, this kind actually works. The Elgar at the link has not been made in some years, so you have to jump through some hoops to use one, but having seen it first hand I can say its worthwhile. And this is coming from a manufacturer who normally does not recommend power conditioners for precisely the reasons you described. |
Atmasphere, I have your S-30 power amp -- a truly great amp. Here is what I do to optimize my front end. I use a medical grade isolation transformer into the wall and a Shunyata Triton into the isolation transformer. Then I have a Monarchy power regenerator for my front end (transport and DAC) plugged into the Triton. Shunyata says they do not recommend using any other technology with their Triton. But there is no question that the isolation transformer greatly improves its performance. |
Sabai, you might experiment with an Equitech 2Q. Their winding method is patented for "balanced" power and I found it to far surpass my previous medical grade isolation transfomer. It provided delicacy and nuance contributing to the musical 'feel' for all types of music. I'm predominantly classical and jazz, using Spectral Reference gear (which long ago I assumed should not have needed isolation & conditioning--was I ever wrong; I didn't know the quality of Spectral until I had some superior ac conditioning. MIT, Equitech, Sound Application) I would experiment w whether your sound is better w Triton before or after the 2Q. Important.I have also found a Sound Application conditioner provided "sublime" conditioning for my digital. Remarkable naturalness, ease, flow..sweet sound like vinyl. |
Another balanced power product that I've used with very good results is the Furman IT-Reference20i. The Equitech that Ptss has recommended is a great unit in this regard as well. A word on balanced power; various components will work better or not depending upon how they were designed and if they are tolerant to a balanced power config, i.e. whether they tolerate/can accommodate a situation where instead of 60/0 they see 60/60 on the incoming power line. A case in point was my Esoteric P-03U (Universal Transport); both it and my D-03 DAC (and G-0x master clock) all did very well sonically for the audio side of the setup BUT the video board in general and 1080p video upscaling when using the RGB (component) analog video outs had some pretty wild variations on IRE levels when the unit was running on balanced power. Going out the video board on the HDMI video output saw the IRE Levels less affected however still, they were not in-line with the units performance and videophile-level perfection when not running on balanced power. As my ISF tech and I found out with a Sencor unit and alot of hours diagnosing with Esoteric USA at the time, the video board and upscaling engine (independent and together) did not react well to seeing 60/60 on the power wave so be sure to test whatever components you have both with and without the balanced power conditioner in the loop. If I read your post above correctly (Sabai), you seem to have an isolation transformer coming from the wall for the entire system, then a passive power conditioner (Triton) plugged into that getting presumably clean power coming into the Triton from the i-transformer, then out of the Triton, you have another power regeneration step (Monarchy) that your transport and DAC are plugged into. My only question is why have both the common isolation transformer out of the wall that powers the whole system and have power regenerator after the Triton? It seems very redundant (to me, I'm not an electrician!) and that the Monarchy is an extra component in the chain that simply regenerates power that should already be clean (of noise, etc..) by the isolation transformer+Triton setup. If I've misread, you have my apologies..... |
Can anyone using a Furman Elite 15i tell me whether it will boost voltage during "line sags" ? I understand it protects against surges. I've visited the Furman site. I didn't read anything claiming voltage boost for this unit so think it does NOT. Am looking for confirmation one way or the other. Thanks in advance. |
In my opinion, one has to try and experiment with power conditioners to determine which is best suited for their system, their tastes and which components to use conditioning on. With that said I agree with the comment Nonoise made on 09-21-13: regarding the Blue Circle PLC 2X Thingee. Or you might want to try the new and improved PLC (Powerline conditioner) Thingee FX2 X0e, in a 4 or 6 outlet availability. I have experimented with these units and there is a lot of bang for the buck without spending huge dollars. If you do want to spend big bucks, take a look at the Bybee, Equi=Tech balanced power or the Dmitri conditioners. |
