Is a vinyl rig only worth it for oldies?

Forget all the " problems " during LP playback I posted and think for a moment how you or any one could gives " support " or speak of " superiority " to the LP playback when in this medium we can't even READ WITH ACCURACY WITH PRECISION ANY SINGLE GROOVE IN ANY LP!!!!!!!!!!

Raul, this is blatantly false and if you actually believe that then you need to know its not true. Now, it is true that cartridges and arms have certain limits, some being better than others. Like I said before, its the mark of a good mastering engineer to understand those limits so he can produce an LP that can be played but still shows off the master recording (unless its directly to LP...).

Now I did comment directly to this issue of traceability above, but the *generalization* that no groove can be tracked by any cartridge is simply too much of a generalization. If that were true LPs would not still be around.

Again, you should spend some time around a mastering setup to see what the recording was like before it went into the grooves. Then listening to what the cartridge/arm combo thinks is there, sounds to me like you might be quite surprised at what is possible.

Its also helpful to make a recording and then put out an LP and a CD of it. That is perhaps the most telling. I have such recordings- one of the better known ones I have done is Canto General by Mikas Theodorakis (peotry by Pablo Neruda). Its pretty easy to discern that the CD **in no way** is able to keep up with the LP on a decent playback system.

I had a guy come into our room at THE Show this last January. He was somewhat notorious on the AudioAsylum.com website for his rants about phase and digital. He did not know that we had a phase switch on our preamp so he had us play a CD and then said that reversing the phase would make it better. I flipped the switch... so there was maybe a very small difference. Then he as insisting about how much better the digital was over analog if it was 'in-phase'... So I put on the LP for him, which instantly smoked the CD (we had a very nice digital system in that room BTW). So then he proclaimed that if there was an analog master tape involved that what he was talking about didn't apply. It was obviously a face-saving comment- he got up and left as fast as he could. I'm afraid we had a good chuckle at his expense.

Raul, I was pretty sure that you are making a phono stage and a tone arm. These comments of yours sound to me unlike what I would have expected- have you experienced a change of heart?

"If one medium is threatened, it's CD"

No doubt. DIgital downloads are a way bigger threat to CD than vinyl. SImilar to how digital downloads of books are a threat to the formally printed variety. Printing/publishing to physical media in general is a negative growth industry as a result of digital access and downloads. Many local daily newspapers would like to be able to be done with it already due to the relative costs and overhead of printing and mass distribution of printed materials. Lots of happy trees out there as a result I imagine!

"Now I did comment directly to this issue of traceability above, but the *generalization* that no groove can be tracked by any cartridge is simply too much of a generalization. If that were true LPs would not still be around. "

Yeah, its all relative. No encoding/decoding approach is perfect, digital or analog. Each has advantages/disadvantages.

No way vinyl will ever even come close to competing with digital moving forward though. IT may well outlast CD redbook as a niche market though in that digital will continue to progress beyond CD whereas vinyl will continue to provide an alternative for those who care I suppose.

Dear Atmasphere: +++++ " have you experienced a change of heart? " +++++

no, I did not but I'm not talking on that subject but to understand why:

+++++ we can't even READ WITH ACCURACY WITH PRECISION ANY SINGLE GROOVE IN ANY LP +++++

IMHO it's not a generalization. In a pivoted tonearm through all the LP tracks/grooves exist a tracking error but at two points and at this points does not exist that error at these two points the stylus tip in a pivoted tonearm is tangential to the groove and can " mimic " but this is only in theory because at those single points you can read that groove " if and only if " the VTA/SRA/overhang is perfect and the LP is absolutely flat with out no tiny waves, additional the stylus shape must me a exactly " copy " of the cutting head!

So now, please let me know in which recordings with which analog rig kind of set up we can read those only two points/grooves where does not exist the tracking error.

That I like the LP alternative and that I supported and support it can't means that I understand too that's a non-accurate medium and that's why persons like you work to hard trying to lower trying to help to those medium self imperfections. Do you think that if I don't like it the LP alternative I took my time with my PhonoLinepream or the tonearm design?

As you I try always to lower the analog medium distortion floor, this is the best we can do or " invent " a better medium.

You know I respect you because of your care and effort in your electronic designs in favor of the analog medium where you already have high success even that you choosed tube technology that in some ways does not fulfil my " priorities " and where you " elevated " what in some ways ( too ) are probably that technology limits.

The enemy against we have to " fight " in audio has a name: DISTOrTIONS/ACCURACY, every kind.

All what surrounded my main audio system targets is to lower the system's distortions all over each one auudio links in the audio chain and each time I achieve " some where " lower distortions/accuracy the rewards are immediate and worth all the effort.

As a medium for designers the analog medium is exciting because there is a lot of " land " to work about ( distotions/accuracy ) to improve the quality performance level.

I don't know which are the tube electronics limits but I know that on SS technology there are many " books " to write as in cartridges, tonearms and TTs.

Digital is diferent and more " perfect " and today in continuos development and grow up as technology. We " mere mortals " can do or can change nothing on digital technology it self where we can do " somethings " is on the analog design on digital audio items that's IMHO its Aqila's heel.

I'm with both mediums and as some of you I enjoy both. I agree that both have advantages and disadvantages and in strict point of view I prefer the HR digital trade offs.

I don't know for other people but for me the music foundation belongs to the bass low bass and here the LP alternative can't even dream what the digital can do even the redbook is better than the LP compared to live music at 3-4 meters from the source.
Both mediums can't performs the same/alike because are diferent with diferent distortion/accuracy levels.

My " excercise " in this thread is try to understand the LP playback " problems " that surround it and try to say that that hypotetic analog/LP superiority is only that: hypotetic but not real. Digital has its own merits and we have to recognize even if we don't like the digital medium.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul retains an open mind in his search for musical perfection and the force is now with him!

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for me the music foundation belongs to the bass low bass and here the LP alternative can't even dream what the digital can do even the redbook is better than the LP compared to live music at 3-4 meters from the source.

Boy, the ability to play bass IMO/IME has always been ruled by LP. I have never seen any digital system do as well! I can't agree with this statement at all, it is so false it seems crafted to be inflammatory, but knowing you Raul, I doubt that is the case. Curious.

A straight-tracking arm solves the tracking issue you describe if its engineered correctly (I am not a fan of air bearings!). But still I would recommend spending time with an LP cutter- the tracking error of radial tonearms is almost a non-issue relative to the overall picture, as long as the radial arm is built right, and there are a few.

This all has to do with the source recording- knowing what that sounds like and then knowing what the resulting CD or LP sounds like! That is why I say the tracking distortion, so long as the arm/cartridge setup is otherwise working correctly, is not important. So I cannot agree that a digital media, at least in its many existing forms, is somehow better- they all impose an audible artifact where the analog does not.

Now understand that I listen to a lot of lathe cuts- it is from that perspective that I write this. They just don't make any noise! Yet you can cut a 50KHz carrier tone into one and modulate FM stereo into it... crazy!

I cannot over-emphasize this point, apparently. You just have to experience it.