Is cartridge Demagnetizing Necessary?

MM cartridges.....ok if stylus is removed, MC never tried and do not want to. If i want to play around the Cardas test LP is fine.
G

cleeds, I do apologize if I seemed to come down on your earlier post. It does make sense that if you remove the stylus assembly from an MM cartridge, it should be safe to use the Sumiko Fluxbuster on an MM.


MC, I don’t know why you keep bringing up the XLO CD. I thought the topic had to do with demagnetizing phono cartridges, or not. Personally, I don’t buy the notion that audio systems as a whole need to be demagnetized (as with a CD), but I am also not going to argue with those who maintain they can hear an effect of doing that, using a CD. Each to his own. As to the rest of what you say above, I cannot get my arms around your actual message. If Synergistic Research, AKA Ted Denney, ever actually did anything that has not been done before (except for marketing with questionable claims), I will be surprised. This includes biasing the shield. Not new at all. I have 20-year-old AC cords that do that, made by Mapleshade. They are good sounding cords, but I have never ever heard a particle of difference with vs without the bias current applied to the shield. Audioquest had cables with that feature many years ago, just to name one more company. And whoever said the dielectric (teflon, air) was unimportant? Certainly not I. The dielectric definitely seems to make a difference in SQ based on my subjective tests. And there is good theory to explain why the dielectric may make a difference in SQ; it’s not a mystery that requires us to suspend disbelief.

You wrote, "Pure copper and silver are not magnetic and do not become magnetized. Nothing however is absolutely pure. Any metallic impurities in the wire can become magnetized, and that is what we are targeting."Nearly all audiophile cables are made of copper or silver or silver-plated copper. Any respectable cable maker claims to use "five-9s" or "six-9s" pure copper or silver. This means, if true, that any magnetizable metals in the brew must be no more than 1 part per 100,000 or 1 part per 1,000,000, at most, depending upon the chance that Fe, Ni, or Co (the 3 base metals that are magnetizable) co-purify with copper or silver. I guess you can always cling to your "something else is happening" hypothesis, but I can’t get excited based on those ratios.
The reason a cartridge coil can become magnetized is because often the core is made of Fe, Ni, or Co or mixtures of those 3 metals. It’s the core that develops or can develop a weak permanent field.
Then there was this inexplicable part of your post:

I’m curious whether anyone here has been using the devices that deliberately expose the audio signal to a powerful magnetic field;

Yes, and you must have missed it lewm because its exactly what I said in my post above:

The other method I use regularly is the Radio Shack Bulk Tape Eraser. Essentially just a really big powerful demagnetizer. Same as demagnetizing tape heads, you bring it close then take it slowly away. Use this on all the cables right up to the tone arm.

I guess you just misunderstood me; I was referring to the commercial products that incorporate magnets into ICs, power cords, and etc. (see also below). Which reference I then dug up, and Dover already commented on it. I was not talking about de-magnetizers or de-magnetization. By the way, I think most who do believe in demag for a cartridge have warned against using a bulk tape eraser for that purpose. Others should check that out before doing so.
My beef with the "High Fidelity Cables" (the ones that incorporate magnets) is as follows: What they do is pass the cable through a hollow tubular magnet. The most elaborate of those magnets seem to be about a foot long, based on photos. Please tell me why those dumb electrons are going to remain in the center of the conductor, even assuming that is desirable or does good for SQ (which I don’t assume), for one split second after the signal passes out from the magnet structure? Nature is all about equilibrium, and I would guess that any effects of the magnet are lost once the signal is no longer in the field.

Is this worth the asking price?
https://www.audioasylumtrader.com/ca/listing/Accessory/Aesthetix-Benz-MC/Demagnetizer/206532

not only is it not necessary, it should not be done at all, unless the manufacturer says to do it.  There are wires in the cartridge that may be thinner than the human hair....easily burnt.  Say goodby to your cartridge.

What is going on? How does this work? 

The magnetic fields guide the electrons through the conductor in a more efficient manner than with standard electrical conduction, creating less distortion and interference. This new magnetic type of conduction yada yada blah blah blah

Good a story as any. 

Yes. High Fidelity Cables claim to drive the signal to the centre of the wire, which is the opposite of the old Lindsay Geyer magnetic cables where they drove the signal to the outside of the cable by using magnetic signal wire.

Neither cables sounded any good to my ears in my experience.

I use the Sumiko Fluxbuster to demagnetise the electronics, the Cardas record to freshen up the system & cartrtidge.

But for most folk cleaning the stylus and records properly would be more beneficial in sound quality improvements.

The Sumiko fluxbuster is doing the exact same thing as the XLO and other CD demagnetizing tracks, only difference being the fluxbuster does this at millivolt level to avoid damaging the hair thin MC coils. Its all the same thing, and you can accomplish exactly the same thing by doing just like I said, playing the CD with variable output turned way down low. Zero difference. Save yourself a pile of money. 

I’m curious whether anyone here has been using the devices that deliberately expose the audio signal to a powerful magnetic field;

Yes, and you must have missed it lewm because its exactly what I said in my post above:

The other method I use regularly is the Radio Shack Bulk Tape Eraser. Essentially just a really big powerful demagnetizer. Same as demagnetizing tape heads, you bring it close then take it slowly away. Use this on all the cables right up to the tone arm.  

Another one:

I do not believe that copper or silver wires become magnetized, but coils (as found in cartridges and transformers, etc) do, to a tiny degree. I could be wrong and would be happy to be corrected.

Pure copper and silver are not magnetic and do not become magnetized. Nothing however is absolutely pure. Any metallic impurities in the wire can become magnetized, and that is what we are targeting. There also seems to be something else going on. There is for example nothing to magnetize or demagnetize in a CD or LP, yet running a demagnetizer over them just before playing does indeed make a difference. No idea why. Just does. 

The magnetic fields guide the electrons through the conductor in a more efficient manner than with standard electrical conduction, creating less distortion and interference. This new magnetic type of conduction yada yada blah blah blah

There's nothing new about it. Synergistic Research Active Shielding wasn't new either. Don't know the whole history but apparently the idea was around a very long time before Ted got around to using it. 

For some reason or other electricity is mysterious.   

Electrons carry a charge and its this charge that is the signal not the physical electrons. The charge is an electromagnetic field. Its called electromagnetic because you can't have one without the other. Run a current through a wire and it generates a magnetic field around the wire. Run a wire through a magnetic field and it generates a current in the wire. Always. Everywhere. Step up transformers, step down transformers, electric motors, electric generators, MC and MM cartridges, starter solenoid on your car, junkyard electromagnet that erases laptops on Breaking Bad. We talk like these are all different things when they are all just the same. 

I can see Krissy nodding her head, "So eloquent" she is thinking.   

I wish. If only.   ;) 

If the signal was only in the wire then it wouldn't matter what we put around the wire. But it does. A lot. Teflon, air, what have you. Totally matters. But, why? People who don't know much say its "outside the signal path" so it can't matter. Right? That's what they say, right? Well they are wrong. Because remember, the signal is the field. The signal does not travel in the wire. The signal suffuses the wire, and a lot of the space around the wire too. Because its an electromagnetic field. It extends off into infinity. Its so strong in the wire we are able to pretend that's it. But it's not. 

Synergistic Research took a wire mesh tube and put a very small 30V DC current on it. This generates an electromagnetic field that surrounds the cable. Works great. Its "outside the signal path" yet changes even to things as small as the diode in the power supply can easily be heard. So much for "outside the signal path"!  

What is going on? How does this work?

The magnetic fields guide the electrons through the conductor in a more efficient manner than with standard electrical conduction, creating less distortion and interference. This new magnetic type of conduction yada yada blah blah blah

Good a story as any.

lewm

Everyone should read the Sumiko Fluxbuster manual, because after all they have no agenda in the debate.

Sumiko understands its product. While you may prefer to not demagnetize your cartridge, it is simply false to claim that it is dangerous to do so. That's true with both MM and MC carts. I know this to be true because I own the Sumiko and have actually done it. It's perfectly safe.

Here it is, straight from a website:
"High Fidelity Cables uses Magnetic Conduction technology to enhance audio signals and ensure the highest quality sound in audio reproduction..

Magnetic Conduction is a new and unique technology that preserves signal inegrity by utilizing magnetism to enhance signal transfer. Magnetic Conduction consists of using magnetic fields with the precise strength, orientation, and dimensions as to concentrate electron flow inside the conductor.

The magnetic fields guide the electrons through the conductor in a more efficient manner than with standard electrical conduction, creating less distortion and interference. This new magnetic type of conduction lends itself to high-end audio reproduction, where you can hear massive improvements in clarity and experience the music the way it was meant to be heard."

Whether this is total BS or not is above my level of knowledge, but I am skeptical.  A transformer builder of my acquaintance was at least skeptical.  It seems to me that one microsecond after "electrons" that represent an audio signal get past the magnets, they will be traveling in the conductor just exactly as it was before the signal entered the field, on the input side of the magnet. And anyway, electrons don't really travel; their energy is conferred from one electron to the next, as I understand it.

That’s why I use the Cardas test LP. Whether or not demagnetizing is needed, in the meantime you are also exercising the cartridge suspension. For any of my cartridges that have sat around for long periods of time, I run them through Cardas tracks 2a, b, and c, before playing an LP.  Above all, I know it's safe for the permanent magnets we need to preserve.

I’m curious whether anyone here has been using the devices that deliberately expose the audio signal to a powerful magnetic field; I forget the name of the company that espouses this treatment. They make ICs, speaker cables, wall sockets and faceplates, all of which incorporate magnets. Not cheap, either.


I do not believe that copper or silver wires become magnetized, but coils (as found in cartridges and transformers, etc) do, to a tiny degree. I could be wrong and would be happy to be corrected.

Uh oh.   

On the one hand yes, using a demagnetizer on a cartridge is a bad idea because there's magnets in there and we do not want to mess with those. We only want to demagnetize the wire. Not the magnets. Just the wire.  

The wire itself we demagnetize by running a signal through it. That is what the demagnetizing tracks on the XLO and other CDs do. The theory of how it works and the fact that it does indeed work has already been explained quite clearly above and will not be repeated here. Anyone genuinely interested in trying to understand, simply scroll up and read the posts.  

Only thing worth adding is the Cardas Test Record works the same way, sweep/fade type signal, with the advantage it would do not only the cartridge but the phono leads and phono stage as well. Just haven't tried it myself to know how good it works.

1+++lewm. The entire concept of "demagnetizing" a cartridge is beyond silly. The only thing you can hope to do with a real demagnetizer (like we use to use on tape heads) is ruin the cartridge. This is a typical example of audiophile mythology because it seems many audiophiles are not able to determine what is real and what is illusion. 

OK. Everyone should read the Sumiko Fluxbuster manual, because after all they have no agenda in the debate.  Bust all the flux you want.

lewm

Just don’t demagnetize a moving magnet cartridge, or you will have no magnet and no cartridge.

This is completely mistaken.
MM cartridges can be safely demagnetized - see the instruction manual for details. The Sumiko Fluxbuster manual specifically cautions against demagnetizing MM cartridges until the stylus assembly is removed first.

Just don’t demagnetize a moving magnet cartridge, or you will have no magnet and no cartridge. The rest of it is up to you. I would never use a demagnetizer per se. I occasionally use the tracks on the Cardas test record which are specifically for demagnetizing.

Ironically, there is a business centered around routing the audio signal thru cables surrounded by powerful magnets. Go figure.

NO never.

• "You’re not fooling anyone by the way. Your system sounds so incredible because of the gate and mats and gray goo slathered all over the place. Which I know because, same here. Heh."

Correcto Mundo, Mi Amigo. For those who didn't get on that train, too bad for you. :-)

Frank

Not only is it not necessary, there are those that recommend against the practice as something that slowly damages the cartridge.  For example, A.J. Vandenhul (cartridge designer and manufacturer) is generally against the practice.  If you go to the Vandenhul website and go to the FAQ section, question 20 discusses the use of demagnefiers.  There are other cartridge designers who have voice some concerns, such as as Jonathan Carr of Lyra.

What happened with me, came to realize the improvement is definitely there. Not real huge or obvious but there. Then it gets worse, but very gradually and so slowly its hard to notice. There is for example a bigger difference between just turned on cold and hour later warmed up. Only instead of an hour its a week to a month getting magnetized.

Well this being the case it stands to reason if you only demag once in a while then you are going to be listening almost all the time to a dirty grungy system. So what I do, burn a disc with just the demag tracks and they repeat over and over again about a dozen times. This way, turn the amp on, hit play, go off do something else for half an hour by which time the system is nice and warm and demagnetized and ready to go.

You’re not fooling anyone by the way. Your system sounds so incredible because of the gate and mats and gray goo slathered all over the place. Which I know because, same here. Heh.

^^^ I have a cartridge demagnetizer. When used, it does lower the noise floor somewhat. The problem is, the system sounds so incredible at this point, I forget to use it. Come to think of it, that would be a good project for today. Geeze, I’ve even stopped using my Radio Shack bulk eraser on my CDs. I’ll begin again. I’ll do the XLO test CD today too. Thanks for the reminder.

Frank

None of this is necessary. The question is does it make enough difference to be worth it? 

Demagnetizing definitely works. Do it regularly. One, play the demagnetizing tracks on the XLO Test CD. One sweep tone, one low frequency fade out. Totally makes a difference. Lots of others out there, probably a lot of them equivalent. Just get one and use it. 

This method does everything from the CD to the speakers. Why? What's it do? The idea is that even really high quality conductors will have some particles or regions in them that can over time become magnetized. Makes total sense if you know how things get magnetized in the first place. Slowly over time the amount of these regions increases and these fixed magnetic fields degrade signal purity. Okay. Whatever. Bottom line you play the tracks the system sounds better. 

The other method I use regularly is the Radio Shack Bulk Tape Eraser. Essentially just a really big powerful demagnetizer. Same as demagnetizing tape heads, you bring it close then take it slowly away. Use this on all the cables right up to the tone arm.  

This just leaves the cartridge. What about the cartridge? Good question. If you do what I just did there is only the last foot of phono lead and the fraction of an inch of moving coil left. How we gonna do that? 

Only by running a demagnetizing signal through it just like the XLO ones. Only one problem: its going through some very fine wires designed for only some fractions of a millivolt, not several millivolts. So if you have variable outs you can connect the phono leads to your CDP out and demagnetize that way.  

If you do, let me know. There's an awful lot of stuff I do all the time just to eke out that last little bit of sound- but crawling around plugging and unplugging just to get the last few inches of wire is where I draw the line. At least until someone comes along and tells me I'm missing out I tend to say.... not worth it.  

And sorry, but the shorting trick is nonsense.