I love spending other people's money. ;-)
Clearaudio Concept TT $1400
Concept MM cartridge $250
Coincident Dragons (used) $5000 (?)
Triode TRX-1 Preamp $3000
Vienna Acoustics Haydn $900
Pyle pro phono amp $15
Where are the weak links?
Spend $4500 on a Coincident Phono stage, or spend $895 on a EAR 834P (upgrade that $15 phono stage) and put the $3500 towards your next pair of speakers?
I know what I would do.
Regards, |
Metralla,
You point out the imbalanced quality of components and I agree. Getting
the EAR is not an upward/final destination choice, it just fits in with the
current analog level. To use a sports analogy, draft the best athlete/player
you can get. Make this draft pick your foundation and build round him with
other good players (a rising tide philosophy). I'd get the great player
(Coincident) rather than the lesser player (EAR) that just satifies a vacant
slot temporarily. But I do understand your reasoning as well. The
Coincident phono +the Dragon mono blocks = two very impressive building
blocks for the very long term.
Charles, |
Charles1dad, In researching my answer I read the Stereophile review of the Tim De Paravacini phono stage. The EAR 834P has been around for a very long time. The review is originally from 1997 and is a good review; but what I was quite impressed by was the story of Carl Marchisotto (Alon, now Nola) using the EAR between his Phalanx/Poseidon speakers with Audio Research electronics, and a VPI TNT 'table with a JMW Memorial arm and a Clearaudio Insider cartridge. Now Carl is no fool when it comes to show demos and could have used a much more expensive phono stage there. But there we had the $900 phono stage in a $125,000 system. http://www.stereophile.com/phonopreamps/797ear/I am extending your analogy. Now is not the time to lash out on a superstar. Now is the time to buy a great player for a lot less money, perhaps one who is a little long in the tooth and near the end of his career; but who will fit in with the team in the position where there is weakness, and really give the team a solid boost. Shades of "Moneyball". Meanwhile, keeping most of the money in the bank for that next star player that you really need. Hey, all in fun. Regards, |
What you don't realize is that the EAR could actually have been a great band-aid for ALON's system at the show. ALON speakers are on the very forward and brighter side. Placing the EAR in that system which is on the warmer side probably helped. I would rather start with less of a band-aid and more of a neutral piece. |
Fair comment. The Stereophile review certainly points out the weaknesses of the phono stage. For instance: "The amplifier's overall dark perspective reflected very laid-back extreme high frequencies and an overly round midbass".
I did not mean to make it a battle between the EAR and the Coincident. I am not stupid. But I do think in the context of the original poster's system $1000 is about the right expenditure at this stage. Perhaps there are much better choices than the EAR around that price point.
Regards, |
Hi Metralla,
"Hey all in fun", of course!
Coincident phono = a prime Labron James.
EAR= an aging Kevin Garnett.
Charles, |
Let's say the OP buys the Coincident phono preamp. Based upon the go for the best and only purchase once philosophy, what phono cartridge would you recommend? |
Good question Onhwy61, but for me more difficult to answer. Phono stages are a fundamental component and a great one has universal appeal and function in many settings. Cartridges are more varied and personal in that they all have an "individual signature" no matter how good they are. So this will really depend on Essrand's taste and overall sonic goal for his system IMHO. Essrand what is your musical/sonic target when all is said and done?
Charles, |
Taste may come into it, but the fundamental determining parameters are imposed by the tonearm. Since the Concept can come with the Clearaudio Concept MC, we could get a line on suitable cartridges from Fremer's review: The MC weighs 8gm and has a moderately high output of 0.4mV at 5cm/s. Its body is made of an alloy of aluminum and magnesium coated with a layer of ceramic, and its boron cantilever is fitted with a Micro Line stylus. The suggested vertical tracking force (VTF) is 2gm, ±0.2gm; the recommended loading is 100 ohms. I would imagine that spending more than $1200 on a cartridge for this player may not be cost effective. Regards, |
Essrand, in relation to the point I raised in my earlier post you may find it useful to read the following thread, and also the thread that is linked to in the post in that thread by Thom_Mackris (Galibier turntable designer): Largest Impact - Arm or Cart? As you'll see, although opinions are divided there is considerable support among the assembled experts for the notion that the quality and performance of the turntable and tonearm are more important than that of the cartridge. Regards, -- Al |
onhwy61, That was a good question and I was pondering upon it myself too.
What cartridge would I get, if I go for the coincident.
I know cartridges are a world in itself. I would just start with the most inexpensive MC cartridge that would be compatible with the Concept turnarm.
I do not know what that would be. My best guess right now is Sumiko Bluepoint evo 3. Since the dealer from whom I bought the TT (used), suggested it.
Metralla,
Here is another way I look at my system.
I have been looking and its very hard to find an EAR 834P used (They have come up only 3 times in the 3 months)
Buying one new = $2000 (with taxes)
Sell it down the road -> $1000 loss
OR
sell the Triode ($2000) + $2500 = Coincident Phono
Risk is that Coincident Phono does have a great line stage as stereomojo suggests. And i have to get a line stage down the road for my digital. |
Essrand, just as with moving magnet cartridges, the Sumiko Blue Point Evo III moving coil cartridge is not compatible with the Coincident Statement Phono Stage. Its output is too high (2.5 mv), and it requires a 47K load, which the Coincident does not provide. You need a low output moving coil cartridge if you want to use that phono stage.
Regards,
-- Al |
Al is corect regarding cartridge criteria with the Coincident. |
Hey Al, Doesn't the Coincident have a built-in SUT, and is there not the possibility to bypass the SUT, if you have an MM? I guess not, based on what you wrote. I am quite surprised. |
Hi Lew,
Yes, it is described as using a SUT, and I'd imagine that it could be bypassed internally and a suitable resistive termination put in place. But it seems clear from the description that internal modifications would be required, and I doubt that many of us would want to do that to such a special piece. Or even have Israel do that, if in fact he would be willing to.
And of course the mod would have to be undone later if the OP eventually goes to a LOMC, unless the design were further modified with the addition of a switch and wiring changes, the result very conceivably being a signal path that is compromised to some degree.
I suppose also that an external SUT could be purchased and used in the reverse direction, to reduce the voltage and increase the load impedance. But that doesn't seem to make much sense either, sonically or financially.
My basic feeling, fwiw, is that something as special as this piece should be kept in stock form, and used as its designer intended.
Best regards,
-- Al |
Based on my interactions with Israel over the past 4 years, he'd rather lose his right hand and an eye(maybe even an ear) before he'd compromise anything related to the signal path. Purity and simplicity of the audio signal is his mantra.
Charles, |
I know cartridges are a world in itself. I would just start with the most inexpensive MC cartridge that would be compatible with the Concept turnarm. The Denon 103r should work. Dirt cheap here. Plus one of the reviews of the Coincident asserted that it plays well with the Denon. I find that there's such a thing as over-deliberation. Even in the absence of all the facts, sometimes one just needs to make a decision, one way or the other, and move on. Moreover, you now have 25 records (and counting?); give them some love. |
Essrand, Building an audio system is relevant to a mathematical equation.
The problem is to find the values or solutions. You are deciding on variables or unknowns. The Statement Preamp will get you closer to your desired binary relation which would be the equals (=) of your goals end.
My system was put together solely based on much research and testimony on user's accolades. I would feel as confident in Coincident Preamp and Amplifiers.
I went for the Doshi Alaap which offers more Phono choices (cost reflective!!) which you do not require. Lewm previously mentioned of a friend who traded Alaap for the Statement. That speaks A LOT to me!
You have an opportunity to attain world-class Amplification performance!
|
3 Months Later. To provide a conclusion to this fantastic thread.
I first made the "rational" choice and got the EAR 834P. Enjoyed it for a while.
I was later convinced that getting CSPS would obviate the need for a line stage for my Digital (so true!).
Sold the EAR 834P and my Coincident Phono arrived just yesterday !
Am super excited.
The line stage of the CSPS sounds as good if not better than my previous line stage.
Still need to updgrade my analog frontend to become MC (its MM now) sigh!
But do not regret the decision.
The CSPS at $4500 even $6000 is a steal ! |
Hi Essrand, Your new Coincident will get even better within short time of use.
I truly feel that you have world class performance with that unit.
Any (if any) future upgrades should be worked around it. Enjoy!! :) |
Hi Essrand,
Congratulations on acquiring the Coincident preamp. Your were given a
variety of heart felt opinions on this thread from well meaning people. My
gut feeling was this is the right decision ( I would have just skipped the EAR
and gone straight to the Coincident Phono stage), short and long term for
you. I believe that you
can't go wrong with owning pure top tier components. They become the
long lasting foundation that you can build your system around over time
and not have to look back. True quality endures and in reality saves you
money by avoiding the frequent and dreaded "upgrade merry go
round". You own a premium product that you may likely never
outgrow ( unless the curiosity bug to try something different strikes). Now
you can steadily build your record collection and know that you have
wonderful components to enjoy them with. Good job!
Charles, |
Ummm... I think you did the right thing, but let's wait until you actually hear what the unit actually sounds like as a phono stage, before we go all orgasmic. If you are listening to the "linestage", isn't that only essentially a passive volume control? (I can't remember for sure, but I think there is no active linestage built in; it just acts as an attenuator.) |
Essrand,
I assumed you listened initially to your phono section prior to your post. |
Hi Lewm,
Actually the line stage on Coincident Phono is better than direct CD player connection to the Coincident power amp (which has its own volume control).
The bass and "weight" of the music came back and "deflation" caused by lack of pre-amp has vanished.
Burn-in will take some time. Then I will know if I can live without an active line-stage (fingers crossed).
The line-stage in the phono does not have any gain however its not passive.
Am trying to figure out a MC Cartridge for Clearaudio Concept, which is proving to be a challenge (i do not want to get the clearaudio mc cart). |
|
Enjoy your new preamp!
I've had my Coincident phono stage for about 2 years, and I like it a LOT. As I've upgraded my turntable, my tonearm(s), and my cartridge(s), I've never had the slightest urge to upgrade my phono stage.
After being advised by a fellow audiophile in Europe that the weak link in this unit is the volume control, I sent it to Bill Thallman in Springfield, VA to bypass the internal volume control and I now run it into an Emia (Slagel designed) passive attenuator that feeds my tube monoblocks. And it sounds just great. |
This has been an interesting thread. It explored a topic we all are involved in, kind of a universal process for all of us. I go with the theory of get a piece, a really good one, that you can build your reference around. There are very few of us who wouldn't feel pretty good about a Coincident Linestage. Congratulations! |
