I would assume the Coincident Statement Preamp does not become available on the used market as it's owners are very happy. Every member here, who uses one, gives very glowing testimonials! Put the horse (pre) before the cart. Get the best Preamp and then match accordingly. |
I agree with Isochronism, owner enthusiasm is very high for this product.
It you can get this for 25 % off that's very unusual. It's considered to be world class level, I'd go for this rare opportunity. |
If indeed the stage is that rare to get on sale, then why not try it out--resale should be a breeze? Note that it won't work with your present cart, since the gain is too high. But if you want to play at this level, you'll want to get a better cart anyways, so put that in the budget.
So, to answer your first question: yes, it would be overkill. |
Worth every penny, especially when hooked up directly to the amp, which is how I have it. |
Thanks for your advice Charles1dad.
Thanks Banquo363 for your answer.
Whats the budget for a cart that might match this amp ?
I know the world of cart is a big one, and hard to answer without experience, but as a beginner whats a first stab at a cart that would start to do justice to this pre-amp. I need to figure that out, so that I can plan my budget.
even 4.5K for this amp, might be a stretch for me, but might be worth it, given the step-up I experienced after getting a Coincident amp. |
I would recommend the Benz cartridge above the glider or ZYX. Always go with the best source first which is the table, cartridge, Phono stage. If you a get a cheap phono stage at first you will want a better one in no time. Upgrading causes you to lose money in the end. |
Essrand, You can also read Arthur Salvatore's review of the Coincident. He goes into depth about the characteristics and benefits of the phono. |
Hi Essrand,
There's a new review of this phono stage in Tone Magazine that echoes the raves of other reviews and owners (go to the Coincident web page and find reviews).
Jwm offered very good advice, start with very high quality components with your source. This prevents the constant upgrading and swapping that will cost much more money in the long run. With this phono stage you're set and done.
Best Regards,
Charles, |
If you think you love vinyl and are not afraid of spending the money, go for what you want. (I have no opinion on the Coincident phono stage except to relate that a buddy of mine sold his Dolshi Alaap in favor of the Coincident, for whatever that's worth.) If you knowingly compromise on the phono stage, you are only setting yourself up for losing money when eventually you do sell the EAR 834P (or whatever else you might buy as a compromise choice) in order to finally get what you really seem to want. Life is short.
As Banquo implied, do be prepared to upgrade everything else, so as to get the most out of the Coincident, as time goes by |
Are your other components of similar quality? If the answer is yes and money truly isn't an issue, then go for it. But if your other components are not quite in the same class as the Coincident, for instance more like your turntable and cartridge, then your money is better spent (or not spent) somewhere else. I note that you state you're a beginner. I would caution you that components like the Coincident and particularly suitable cartridges for the Coincident are aimed at experienced audiophiles who understand their demands. |
Essrand, Now that you mentioned that you have a Coincident Amp, the Coincident Statement would be the obvious choice. As Charles points out "you're set and done". Good luck! (I'm keeping my Alaap, tho:) |
Always shoot high....lowering your sights will always be wasteful |
onhwy61, Thanks for your pragmatic advice.
My components are definitely of not the same quality. Am sure my cartridge is not, which I knew from the start and do not mind upgrading.
I did expect to keep the TT (Clearaudio Concept) for a few years.
I hope getting the Coincident will not make do that upgrade too. If so, I might wait and gain some more experience with Vinyl before getting the Coincident.
Money is limited, as it always is, otherwise I would have bought the Coincident and asked questions later.
Iso, I agree with what you are saying. That it will be good match. But I wonder if getting the Coincident pre-amp will force me to make upgrades I am not ready yet. |
Essrand, you have a number of very experienced and knowledgeable people advising you to purchase the Coincident phono preamp and I think it's good advice, however, it might not be the best advice. Let's say you buy the phono preamp, next thing you know you go and get a $5k cartridge which leads to a better tonearm/turntable which leads to a better line stage, but now your speakers are holding back the system... What started out as $20k system has suddenly ballooned to $60k+. Each "upgrade" was logical and resulted in a worthwhile improvement in sound quality, but the real question is whether the tricked out system will really make you happier? There's always going to be some level of performance that's better than what you have. There's always going to be some great deal on some component that will help you get to that next level. There's no need to hurry, it's not a race. |
"There's no need to hurry it's not a race" so true Onhwy61.
The premium phono stage can be thought of as a strong building block.
There's no rule that says that every additional component has to be
necessarily expensive to make good music. I don't believe you have to
spend 5k in order to get a wonderful sounding cartridge. Take your time
and get comfortable with what's available in a price range you're at ease
with. Remember that the Coincident will extract all that it can from your
analog front end. You really have to define what your musical/sonic
objectives are then fulfill them in a systematic fashion.
Some people have very expensive systems and yet aren't happy with their
sound. Take time and assemble a system rather than a collection of
numerous expensive components. You're sure off to a good start.
Charles, |
A Phono Stage is the most critical unit in the whole chain. With no other unit you can win or loose so much. When it is done right, it is not a question of overkill (Science is knowledge ---> RIAA, precision, temperature, parts... ).
We have now a lot more units available, but only very, very few are outstanding. Like a famous European Designer (Mies van der Rohe) once said: "God is in the Detail" |
Esstrand,
The case for obtaining a top tier phono stage continues to grow. |
Dear Essrand: It's clear that for any one of us is easy and in some ways a " fun " to " play " with other person money.
++++ " I might wait and gain some more experience with Vinyl before getting the Coincident. " ++++
this makes a lot of sense to me.
Analog is far away to be a plug&play hobby. If there is one audio suibject where we need adeep knowledge level and skills to achieve a quality performance level that can satisfy us is ANALOG.
The analog proccess is a everyday learning proccess. You are " new " to that learning proccess and you can't run before you learn to walk. We have to invest time and money on that learning proccess. I think you can't justify a high investment on the starting learning proccess step, you have to understand what really is happening " down there " ( quality performance level during playbak. ), why sounds that way or that other way, why I can't get " nirvana ? and several other questions that only you can resolve through that knowledge level and obviously trough your audio system.
First step in that learning proccess could be to have a reference a standard to compare. Normally the " best " reference is live music and here too you have to understand what you are listening.
Yes, the phonolinepreamp is a critical analog item but the cartridge and tonearm too and you have to learn by your self about if you really cares about MUSIC and MUSIC home reproduction.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Jcharvet, do you use the Coincident Phono like a line-stage for your digital source also ?
Seems it has input for CD player too, so can bypass having a line stage completely.
If you do, can you please tell how good it is with acting as a Line stage for a digital source. |
I'd say that it's obvious you'll want a good quality TT, tonearm and
cartridge, all are important. You have to start somewhere and beginning
with a recognized and praised phono stage that's available for a discounted
price is a fine opportunity(and has an excellent line section built in).
Starting with a lesser quality phono only to upgrade later usually costs
more in the long run. All components have a learning curve, this isn't
unique to analog. You have an excellentCoincident Dragon amp and thus a
very solid foundation. No need to make things more complicated than need
be.
Listen to live music (particularly acoustic instruments) and you'll develop
an ear for natural sound. You'll discover (or may already have) that some
types of components are more realistic and natural than others. Trust your
hearing and your spontaneous and emotional response.
Charles, |
The Statement Phono adds an analog flavor to my digital source. It sounds very good. However, my Wadia 781i has its own volume control, and I prefer digital music to sound digital as-is. If you plan on hooking up a CD player, it will do the job as a line stage very well, and you can roll tubes to suit your tastes.
The Statement Phono is very quiet, its almost unbelievable you are listening to records. It is very true to the sound your turntable makes. |
Essrand go for it - one component at a time. My philosophy is buy the piece you really want and upgrade when you can or you might even find you don't need to upgrade. A statement piece in your system might make upgrading other components unnecessary because you might be completely satisfied with your sound.
OTOH compromise and you may be on the upgrade train forever...a well worn path of disappointment for many. |
I would ask Israel Blume, does his phono stage have a true "linestage" built in, or do the aux inputs simply interpose the volume control between the CDP or other high level source and the amplifier. There is an important difference, if the linestage function is crucial to you. |
I talked to Israel, he says that the "line-stage" in the phono is passive (no gain), so its not a "true" linestage. |
Thank you for clarifying. It further justifies that there is no need for me connect a digital source to the Statement Phono in my setup. If you are still considering this, most CD players without volume control have enough gain to start with, but it will be better to check that also :) |
Sorry for being pedantic, but "passive" and "no gain" can mean two different things. But it's probably truly passive, just a volume control, which means one must take care about matching impedances. |
Lewm,
Good point generally speaking, but there shouldn't be an impedance matching problem with the Coincident Dragon MK II amplifier. This sibling combo is likely an exceptional sound.
Charles, |
Sorry, Charles. I was not thinking about the match between the phono stage and the amplifier. I was thinking about the impedance match between an outboard high level source, such as a CDP, and the volume control. With a minimum of thought and information about the input impedance of the control, there probably would not be a problem, however. |
Most CDPs without a volume control will need some form of external attenuation, be it the passive control on something like the Statement or a stand-alone passive attenuator, or an active control on a conventional linestage.
They typically output 2V of signal. 0.5 to 1V is enough to drive most amplifiers to full output. |
I apologize for beating this topic to death, but yesterday I dealer demo-ed the CAT SL1 Renaissance with built-in Phono.
I was wondering how the Coincident Phono compares to this pre-amp.
The CAT was unbelievable. Blew my mind.
Would the Coincident Phono + Coincident Dragon
beat
CAT SL1 Preamp + Coincident Dragon.
If they are both close I would prefer the Coincident for sure.
Basically I am trying to understand if after buying the Coincident Phono, will i have to splurge on a World class pre-amp to get the best performance. |
Those are two superb choices and it would simply be a matter of one's opinion. But it would be best to form an opinion after prolonged audition in one's own system. Nothing else counts. |
Essrand- I have not compared the CAT to the Coincident, but you have introduced an active pre-amp into the equation. To my ears, the influence of a top notch active line stage on the overall sound of a system cannot be overstated. I believe that it is the "heart" of the system. Just my opinion. Which is not to say that I don't think that my LSA passive is not one of, if not the best bargain in audiol. Flame away everyone. I've got my asbestos tightie-whites on. |
Most likely if you really liked the sound of the active pre-amp. It is a matter of personal preference whether you use an active pre-amp or not. There are many discussions related to this topic within the forum.
Also, as already pointed out, the CAT SL1 might not sound exactly the same in your setup. |
I kind of like an active linestage, myself.
I think the OP has one, but I am not sure it is up to the level of excellence of the Statement. |
Echoing Raul (and Nietzsche): you can't fly into flying. As someone with no more than one record, you understandably have more questions than answers. But, as Lewm suggested, the only way to get satisfactory answers is to listen to different components in your own system for a goodly amount of time.
IMO, given where you are and given that you don't have unlimited resources, the most salient consideration is resale value. You have 2 world class options; just pick the one that 'guarantees' you won't lose money. That way you can start the game and enjoy that record of yours, and rest assured that should you want to change it up you won't sink further into debt. If both meet that condition, flip a coin. |
Essrand,
You actually heard the CAT preamp (good move) and were impressed. Will you have a chance to hear the Coincident Phono stage under similar conditions? |
I'm making the assumption that Essrand is buying predominantly for phono pefformance with the line stage a secondary consideration. |
Hi Charles1dad.
Unfortunately there is no way for me to audition the Coincident without purchasing it.
And yes your assumption is right about phono perf being primary consideration.
Banquo, your words are full of wisdom. My LP collection is already rivaling my CD collection in quality, though far far less in quantity (25 LPs). Hence the anxiety to get the phono quick.
I am hoping that the Coincident Phono does not need a line stage to reach its maximum potential, given that I own a Coincident Amp. |
Other feel free to disagree, but from my perspective someone considering a Coincident, or for that matter even the EAR, should have more than 25 LPs. It's putting the equipment before the music. |
Essrand, I use to own the CAT SL-1 Signature. I found the preamp to be very open and dynamic, but very foward in the midrange. In the end I got tired of this sound. My friend had the Ultimate with the same results. Good luck. |
Hi Onhwy61,
Essrand can certainly build his record library over time as most anyone has done, there is quite a resource available. My point for encouraging him is this, he can buy a superior product for a rare discounted price. This will match his premium level power amplifier and form a superb foundation (and likely avoid the dreaded component merry go round). In the long term he saves money and reduces anxiety and second guessing. He'll have wonderful sound as he buys more and more records.
Charles, |
I have refrained from commenting on the cost, but let's keep in mind that Coincident sells direct, not through dealers. Therefore, Coincident can sell any of its products for any price that Israel Blume deems to be acceptable, regardless of the "list price". Thus, it is not a given that this opportunity to buy at a large discount is "once in a lifetime", if the OP wants to wait to make a decision. In other words, I would not encourage the OP to make this purchase solely because of the discount. |
Charles1dad, everything you just said is true. My point is that despite those truths, having so little invested in vinyl might no warrant such a large investment in equipment. While there is no magic number of LPs that triggers getting state of the art equipment I would argue that an element of common sense should apply. Another way of stating the issue is to ask whether the OP would be better off with 250 more records and the EAR phono stage versus his two dozen LPs and the Coincident? |
Hi Onhhy61,
I clearly understand your point and it's logical. I feel that Essrand is committed to building a LP collection that can be enjoyed for a lifetime. I rather buy the Coincident Phono now (if it's within budget) rather than the lesser component only then to upgrade later anyway.
Lewm, I'm not suggesting this is a 'once in a lifetime deal', however 25% off is very good for this top shelf phono stage. Yes there's more than one approach to this situation. I'm just a believer in getting the higher quality gear when you can(and when the price is right), most often there's no looking back. I know Essrand will make his own decisions, I'm just trying to be helpful.
Charles, |
I have always found that (with research/patience) buying once is THE best policy. If it is affordably doable, get what will best be in play with your system, period!!
Then your LP music search will be encumbered. |
Edit: will "NOT" be encumbered. Case in point. When the system is GOOD! And the music is GOOD!, do not attempt anything else while being fully immersed.. |
10-26-13: Essrand
I did expect to keep the TT (Clearaudio Concept) for a few years. I hope getting the Coincident will not make do that upgrade too. Based on a quick read-through of this thread, it seems to me that this is the major issue that needs to be considered. As Banquo mentioned earlier, the Coincident phono stage will not work properly with your present cartridge. In addition to the gain issue he mentioned, it does not provide suitable loading for MM's. So you'll want to invest in a high quality LOMC, that will do justice to the phono stage, and not require further upgrading in the foreseeable future. And although I'm not familiar with the Concept, I'd seriously question whether a $1400 turntable + tonearm would do justice to that cartridge, if used as anything more than a temporary stopgap. I don't mean to be discouraging, but I'm just suggesting that if you go for the Coincident you should be prepared for the possibility that you'll want to upgrade the turntable and tonearm sooner rather than later. And seconding Isochronism's point about buying once, that upgrade, done right, is likely to involve considerable $. Regards, -- Al |
Get the EAR 834P.
Maybe one day you will have a table, arm and cartridge that can make the most of a phonostage like the Coincident.
In my opinion, you want to try to keep some sort of balance even during the upgrade process. There will come a time when you make a big jump to the next level - but I don't think this is the right one.
Just let it slide out of your mind and don't think about what could have been. It will come around.
Regards, |
Well two different camps have emerged, both are rational. Personally I wouldn't waste time with buying .the EAR phono stage(when you aspire for better). Get the best now and gradually bring your other components to this same high standard over time. As Onhyw61 said earlier, this isn't a race. Brett(Isochronism), you and I think alike in this matter. Nice thread.
Charles, |
Charles, I don't disagree with the "go for it" philosophy. I only advocate careful decision-making, and THEN go for it. |
