Linn LP12 turntable

@newton_john

Those buying second hand gear!

Lemme tell ya, them guys ain’t dumb

Get your ‘stuff’ for (nearly) nothing and your ‘kicks’ for free!

@daveyf 

I usually agree with your posts, but you're wrong about analogue to digital conversion being less than ideal.

The Urika II in conjunction with a Klimax DSM sounds a lot better than the original Urika with a Klimax Kontrol. 

I’ll throw in my experience with  my LP12. Bought a Majik version and have upgraded all components to where it’s equivalent to the Klimax- about $20k. Owned an AR XA back in the day. The ONLY downside to the TT is its susceptibility to footfall. I really had to work on this in my house  w P&B foundation. After going all upgrades, the suspension & power supply impacted SQ the most. Next was moving to a audioquest phono cable over the stock cable. I went to Lyra Kleos and couldn’t be happier with it. I have a new Krell (SS) phono pre which was a nice improvement. 
 

good question great thread

@newton_john I am no fan of any of the Linn phono stages. The Original Urika is, IMO, nothing special. So, when you went from a Urika to a Urika 11, you still are not hearing what a great analog ( and IME preferably a tube) phono stage will offer. YMMV.

@ yoyoyaya

Hi, in fact my SME 10 is one of the last models built and therefore equipped substantially with the latest PSU and the dark support for vinyl. In fact it is very precise in rotation speed. I also equipped it with a SME Series IV tonearm. This does not mean that, given my positive experience, I would also like to have an LP 12. On the other hand I do not listen to music with CDs and sometimes I listen to digital music with a self-built streamer/DAC based on IAN Canada cards.
Greetings.

Alessandro

@newton_john Thanks for the pictures. The piano black looks great!

@newton_john

Going over to the dark side.

Lovely respray and craftsmanship.
l see the Quadraspire had to go too for a more in vogue modern look. Your decision, the wife’s or both?

More harmony in the music and home life?

It can be a hard mix to get right sometimes unless wives are onboard as well.

This subject has often caused division and thoughts of, shall l keep the wife and get rid of the elephant in the room, or keep the elephant and let go of the wife. Ha!

Saying this……l wonder if the latter has ever happened?

Anyone??

@daveyf

I don’t doubt that there are better phono stages than the Urika. In fact, it wouldn’t be at all surprising if Linn were to upgrade the analogue amplification part of their phono stages along with the Ekos SE as you suggest. I recently heard someone from Linn say that they anticipate a series of LP12 related upgrades in future.

However, what they have clearly demonstated with the Urika II is that it is beneficial to carry out RIAA processing in the digital domain, particularly with the improved clock of the Klimax DSM/3. That’s basically the reason why I returned to vinyl after a break of five years.

Of course, whether the improvement from thus reducing noise, interference and distortion in the RIAA processing, pre-amplification and also potentially the crossovers with Exakt, not to mention Space Optimisation, is worth the lack of flexibility to use other manufacturers’ components is entirely a matter of personal preference.

Re the $9K Linn plinth: seems to me an enterprising Linnie could have a new plinth made out of Panzerholz or generically similar dense material for much less than say $3K. Probably that would be worth the cost if the interior architecture was properly done to avoid hollow cavities.

@lewm 

It’s not just the plinth. There’s a new top plate attached. Presumably that contributes to the sound.

I was wondering if, given the huge number of LP12s out there, a company like Tangerine might market one. It would be interesting to see if it was as good and if they could make it cheaper. 

When I was last in business, we had a prospective competitor who spent a year or more telling all our customers that he’d soon be massively undercutting our prices. Guess what? When he finally opened for business, his product was inferior but his prices exactly matched ours.

@mylogic 

The Quadraspire was made out of a few spare bits left over from the main equipment racking. The wood clashed with the turntable plinth and some nearby shelving. I tried it with glass shelves, but they sounded terrible. Also, I didn’t like that the shelves dominated because they were bigger than the footprint of the LP12.

It was my decision to change the stand, although I think my wife approves. It was her who encouraged me to get another LP12 in the first place after I’d already decided it was too expensive. I am fortunate in that respect - she’s an amazingly generous and selfless woman. You wouldn’t believe the lengths she’s gone to for other people.

I wanted a NokTable, but that would have cost in the region of £1,000. As I’d already spent a lot on the turntable, that was far too much. I went for the much cheaper alternative of using an all metal Ikea Knarrevic bedside table customised with carpet spikes and self-adhesive car damping panels underneath the shelves. I couldn’t believe my luck to find something pretty well exactly the right size.

My dealer said metal shelves don’t usually sound good because they tend to resonate like glass. Fortunately, I seem to have got away with it. Perhaps, because it’s sited a long way from the loudspeakers.  One thing I can’t do is put the power supply on the bottom shelf. That kills the sound of the turntable.

@newton_john

STOP PRESS! lkea bedside tables sell out!

Thanks for that great breakdown of your upgrades.
Even greater, thinking outside the box for inexpensive solutions.

It’s not always the gear that counts but also displaying no fear in trying other solutions.

Car damping panels and spikes add more than the sum of all the parts and you may have something here. I was surprised your dealer did not like metal stands. Is he also saying the same for nearly all the turntable wall shelves out there too?

Strange the power supply results as it is far away from the deck relatively speaking.

By the way, the wife sounds like a keeper !

@mylogic You point to car dealerships as comparable to the Linn ecosystem, and I agree. For decades Linns have appeared  to fall into the same category as owning a British sportscar, complete with oxcart suspension technology and adapted industrial motors (MG and Triumph-Linn) or fragile cutting edge lightweight technology (Lotus-Rega) that were kept alive by their owners perverse love of a certain ephemeral experience they achieved only once every several outings, when nothing broke, leaked, or otherwise stranded the operator. 

@panzrwagn   While what you say may have been true decades ago with the Linn, this is certainly not true today. 
 

daveyf

Truth or not the truth, that is the question?

Why that supposition then that things have changed? An LP12 is always an LP12.

What’s the difference…..now and then?

panzrwagn

A friend of mine has an old British Morris Minor, he loves it. He said he has spent more time under the car than in it. I can’t believe the amount of time money and effort he has given up over the years to keep the old girl going!

This sounds very familiar to the hi-fi world and more so with turntables.

Yes, the fiddling stories came from decades ago. A lot of that is probably people not knowing what they were doing fiddling. I can only assume what has happened to make Linn the stable platform it is today is closer tolerances and material science. That make sense to me. I have a friend that is a Linn technician. When he finds a table that doesn’t sound right it is gross negligence in assembly... like putting the springs or cupped spring holders upside down. Absolutely stupid stuff. Once set up they are rock solid.

When you have an upgradable table, then you are going to have a lot of people that should not be doing it themselves... doing it themselves.  

@mylogic Perhaps a logical person would look up why the table has changed over time...and not state an LP12 is always an LP12, before making such a statement....No?

@ghdprentice +1

@daveyf

l only stated the obvious…,

l have a fair knowledge of the ‘upgradeitus’ syndrome. A common made up word used in the 70s and 80s.

‘An LP12 will always be an LP12’, but l was just being ironic.

I have never said that no advances have been achieved with expensive mods or that the turntable itself is bad. Others have said, basic original design faults have had to be inherently addressed with the original LP12 line. The debate on Linn copying the Ariston RD80 and not improving on that is altogether another argument for those who have owned or heard both, l for one have never owned a Linn or an Ariston so l exert no bias in my comments. Historically l have over time auditioned both but passed on both manufacturers in the end. I am guilty in stating on Audiogon l believe Linn’s claims that it was the first turntable that brought awareness that all turntables didn’t sound the same, and that this claim to be true.

A Linn LP12 is whatever a person wants to make of it, but of course those persons will need very deep pockets upgrading the basic model. That is a well known thing!

Anyone who owns an LP12 who goes on to sell it will always put in the advert, ‘Linn LP12’ before anything else. Lists of all the new parts of any makeovers/upgrades that make it any more special will always of course follow on….. To justify the aspirations of the sellers asking price, and hopefully payback time!

That is just my logic

@mylogic

Thank you for your kind comments.

My dealer is very knowledgeable about Linn matters and has been selling their products for decades. He is on Facebook every day advising people on Linn stuff old and new.

However, I am sure he’d never claim to omnipotent and there’s always room for individual preferences. I don’t know his views on wall shelves. I think he was just saying that a metal shelf might resonate.

On the other hand, my wife is omnipotent. I wouldn’t dare say otherwise :)

@newton_john

Thank you for the reply.

OMNIPOTENT….,Got me thinking outside the box again! Made me smile :-)

Good to hear a wife open to all positions!

More power is always good in hi-fi and she’s on your side.

l have just seen a new post on Audiogon (deadhead1000) on a matter l discussed two days ago……. Whether some enthusiasts have ever divorced a wife to keep the hi-fi.

@ghdprentice 

I agree with your comments.

When you buy an LP12, it's wise to employ someone who knows how to set it up properly.

Maybe, there are some audiophiles who know what they're doing, but I'd never attempt to tinker with one. That is apart from putting it in place, setting the counterweight and bias and cleaning the stylus.

I set up every other aspect of my system, but never the LP12. In fact, my old dealer said that I was an unusual client. He did everything for most customers.

@mylogic 

My ex used to complain that I spent more a stylus than she would on an entire stereo. She'd be horrified to know I've now got a hifi system that's worth more than our cars were.

That may well have been a contributory factor to our split.

If I'd stayed with her, I'd be richer but not as happy.

@newton_john 

A very open and honest answer there.

A question…..

How many handbags and pairs of shoes did she own before the split? Family expenses can be frittered away….in other many ways not so visibly obvious.

Check out deadhead1000 latest post.

mylogic

l for one have never owned a Linn or an Ariston so l exert no bias in my comments ... That is just my logic

Not owning something hardly frees you from bias. You might want to revisit your "logic."

@cleeds

l totally agree ‘not owning something hardly frees you from bias’
But it does let you ask questions

l never get ‘hot under the collar’ or try to indoctrinate others. My logic……it is just that, my logic!

True l have not owned ‘one’ but l have heard a ‘lot’ and l didn’t hear anything to convince me to buy one…even second hand. That’s not biased but a reality as far as l am concerned.

Have you been or are you an LP12 owner who is a little peeved?
Thence if so, maybe perceived biased yourself?

l have not critiqued the LP12, just commented on the whole ball game. Remember l am on record here stating that l actually agreed with the Linn doctrine when first published with adverts in the hi-fi press. ‘Not all turntables sound the same!’

It was a bold pioneering statement that asked the question in print for the first time. I hope l don’t sound ‘biased’ here? It’s a fact!

UPDATE

I have just referenced these adverts and what l recalled is exactly as quoted above.

mylogic

l totally agree ‘not owning something hardly frees you from bias’
But it does let you ask questions ...

Huh? So if you own a Linn LP12, you can't ask questions? What's your point?

Have you been or are you an LP12 owner who is a little peeved?
Thence if so, maybe perceived biased yourself?

Nope, never owned an LP12. It's a great turntable, though.

@cleeds

l never actually said that you can’t ask questions if you own a LP12…..that would be illogical !

mylogic

l never actually said that

I quoted you accurately. Literally cut-and-paste.

@cleeds 

You may have cut-and-paste but there’s nothing in there that says (I say) if something is owned you can’t ask questions.

mylogic

You may have cut-and-paste ...

I quoted you accurately using cut-and-paste. You seem to get uncomfortable when your arguments are quoted and questioned. Perhaps you are just looking for an argument.

@cleeds 

l just can’t see the argument in your cut-and-paste, tried to see it from your perspective…it’s maybe lost in translation here.

l’m not arguing here, you are. Please educate me with this wisdom.
 

l for one like a nice debate. 

@mylogic First you state this: “Why that supposition then that things have changed? An LP12 is always an LP12.”

then you state this: “Remember l am on record here stating that l actually agreed with the Linn doctrine when first published with adverts in the hi-fi press. ‘Not all turntables sound the same!’”
Which one is it??

Now you state that you don’t even own a LP12, but you have no problem denigrating the product. This kind of logic…escapes me.

@cleeds  I think you nailed it with regards to our friend with “logic”. Lol.

@mylogic 

:)

You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment

@daveyf

Thank you for your feedback. If it’s bad, it’s not always bad but an ‘opportunity’ to review what has been said, digest and see what could have offended.

l do recall saying something really bad about the Ittok’s tank-turret like design that may have cut a bit close to the bone.

If l have offended anyone l apologise. I’m not afraid to say that.

Unfortunate how LP12 threads seem to degrade. Great discussion prior. 

I learned a lot about the iconic Linn LP12! If I can find one at the right price /.condition / options I will join your ranks, or may buy a new Majik. I think I need to own a product that generates so much emotion. Thanks you!

"Good to hear a wife open to all positions!"

Ahem...🤔🙀

If I were a lawyer or a judge, I would have to side with mylogic.  His statement, accurately quoted by cleeds, does not stipulate that if you own a Linn 12 you ought not to comment on a Linn LP12.  He is trying to say that whether you own a Linn LP12 or not, you are free to comment on it. Perhaps the moniker "mylogic" is a bit provocative.

@thecarpathian

’Good to hear a wife open to all positions’

Just to say the comment has to be considered ‘tongue in cheek’ and in relation to newton_john and myself in our conversations.

I don’t want to offend anyone else tonight!

@lewm, I don’t think anyone here is saying that ownership of a LP12 is required before a member can comment on it. However, it would be perhaps better if those who have a negative opinion of the table…also disclose upfront as to their reasoning..and to the fact that they have no ownership of the table. Personally, I don’t have a problem with someone putting their 2cents in, but I do like to know if they are coming from a place of actual experience, or expertise.

@lewm 

Thank you for your comments. I did not see them as l was posting back to thecarpathian about not wanting any misunderstanding on his comment on my conversation with newton_john.

@daveyf 

My experiences with the old LP12 were garnered from early day auditions and demonstrations at hi-fi fares and shops in the 1980s. Also l have friends with Linn models of various ages, so l have a fair idea of the pros and cons of the turntable.

Thats how l judge any opinions l may feel like sharing. I may well buy one if the price is right as l am open minded to any piece of hi-if equipment if it excels.

l also take on board the suggestion the ‘mylogic’ handle may be confrontational but there was no ulterior motive why l adopted it. I also own a Logic DM101 MKII electronic which l have restored. Nothing else upgraded except the arm and various cartridges. 
 

l rest my case!

@lewm , +1.

I judge on this case in favor of @mylogic .

Good point @daveyf !

The ruling is innocent with extenuating circumstances!

Although he does get fined for public indecency with regards to the wife comment.

@lewm sorry i’ve been away for a bit wrestling Qbits… F= MA in combination w Hooke’s law can be used to model simple harmonic motion…including amplitude….

Glad that we’re all friends again.

Sorry, if my light hearted banter muddied a serious topic.

Any misunderstandings here are trivial compared to the anger about Linn on other forums. You need a thick skin to post about the LP12 there.

@newton_john Interesting. I have not noticed a lot of anger against Linn on other forums, but then again, maybe I’m not visiting the ones you are referring to??

Actually I also read something on other forums ... and I, even though I am a fan of SME, I can't understand why. The Sondek LP 12 was, is and will be a great turntable, built in a maniacal way, that only the British can do, and that sounds very very good with a romantic sound. Maybe the reason is that they can't afford it?!?! Maybe I'm too evil????

Regads

Alessandro

@alessandrocat   Don't get me wrong, there are always a number of Linn detractors on all audio forums, including this one. The table seems to polarize folk into a position. Most times I notice that those who have the strongest negative opinions also have the least experience with the LP12. 

On the forum for my home town football club, we also have two opposing factions. They call each other the Happy Clappers and the Bed Wetters.

Those names kind of fit the Linn polarisation too :)

The discussions of the Linn remind me of discussions surrounding Leica M series cameras. Particularly "The Leica Look". I have a full Nikon and Fuji stable and took the plunge a number of years ago and bought a Leica M10. Like high end audio, assessing the character of photos is a highly complex endeavor and because of the high cost of the body and lenses gets those that can’t afford them up in arms.

After a year or so of photography with my M10 I was slowly able to zero in on the differences... subtle but really important differences. The lenses are simply superb and designed to be used wide open... very different. But the foundation of the Leica Look is in the body and is very much similar to many really good audio systems. Leica, Instead of emphasizing the ends of the visual light... the light and dark... they perform exceptionally well in the mid-tones to dark tones... bring incredible nuance to the whole spectrum... bring out the emotion (if you know how to use the camera). It is the same kind emotional connection I get with a really good tube audio (/Linn) system ... which is often denied by folks that cannot afford them.

I was surprised to find once I learned to explain the difference how many Leica owners jumped on and agreed that I had successfully put my finger on the magic.