@chrisoshea You may be right, or I could buy a new LP12 base deck, lingo 4 & maybe a Audio Origami tonearm & have perfect.
Linn LP12 turntable
I was in my favorite audio store yesterday talking turntables… Rega P10, MoFi MasterDeck etc, when he stated he had a Linn LP12 he was selling for a customer at $2,400 & the customer had $14K (with upgrades) into it. Intriguing, but knew nothing about Linn. After my research, people seem to love it or hate it. But it is installed in many fine audiogon systems.
I would like your thoughts and recommendations.
I have asked the following questions of the dealer:
1. Date of production
2. Upgrades that have been added
3. Power supply / tone arm
4. Condition
5. Recently serviced
I have not yet seen it, but it is there now. What other questions should I ask?
My current analog system:
Pro-ject 1xpression carbon classic with Hana ML
Rega Aria
PS Audio BHK pre
Simaudio Moon 330A amp
KEF R11’s
Advise would be greatly appreciated.
207 responses Add your response
Audiophilia is a complex system. Every listener is different with different musical tastes and different gear in different environments. Taking the LP12 alone, there are a very many different permutations of components. Like in politics, people demand simple responses to complex issues. They join cults and vote for bull in the china shop demagogues to get them. Like with getting Brexit done, you can see the appeal of just buying a Technics SL-1200 and forgetting about the turntable forever. Yet, they can't just live and let live. It rankles them that a privileged minority might have found a better way. To justify their jealousy and anger, they resort to conspiracy theories about Linn "marketing'" built on myths and fables about Ivor forty or more years ago. Then, in the ultimate irony, they accuse the LP12 owners of being a cult. Of course, first paragraph excluded, I'm not being entirely serious here. In reality, the LP12 is only a bloody turntable. |
The discussions of the Linn remind me of discussions surrounding Leica M series cameras. Particularly "The Leica Look". I have a full Nikon and Fuji stable and took the plunge a number of years ago and bought a Leica M10. Like high end audio, assessing the character of photos is a highly complex endeavor and because of the high cost of the body and lenses gets those that can’t afford them up in arms. After a year or so of photography with my M10 I was slowly able to zero in on the differences... subtle but really important differences. The lenses are simply superb and designed to be used wide open... very different. But the foundation of the Leica Look is in the body and is very much similar to many really good audio systems. Leica, Instead of emphasizing the ends of the visual light... the light and dark... they perform exceptionally well in the mid-tones to dark tones... bring incredible nuance to the whole spectrum... bring out the emotion (if you know how to use the camera). It is the same kind emotional connection I get with a really good tube audio (/Linn) system ... which is often denied by folks that cannot afford them. I was surprised to find once I learned to explain the difference how many Leica owners jumped on and agreed that I had successfully put my finger on the magic. |
@alessandrocat Don't get me wrong, there are always a number of Linn detractors on all audio forums, including this one. The table seems to polarize folk into a position. Most times I notice that those who have the strongest negative opinions also have the least experience with the LP12. |
Actually I also read something on other forums ... and I, even though I am a fan of SME, I can't understand why. The Sondek LP 12 was, is and will be a great turntable, built in a maniacal way, that only the British can do, and that sounds very very good with a romantic sound. Maybe the reason is that they can't afford it?!?! Maybe I'm too evil???? Regads Alessandro
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@newton_john Interesting. I have not noticed a lot of anger against Linn on other forums, but then again, maybe I’m not visiting the ones you are referring to?? |
Good point @daveyf ! The ruling is innocent with extenuating circumstances! Although he does get fined for public indecency with regards to the wife comment. |
Thank you for your comments. I did not see them as l was posting back to thecarpathian about not wanting any misunderstanding on his comment on my conversation with newton_john.
My experiences with the old LP12 were garnered from early day auditions and demonstrations at hi-fi fares and shops in the 1980s. Also l have friends with Linn models of various ages, so l have a fair idea of the pros and cons of the turntable. Thats how l judge any opinions l may feel like sharing. I may well buy one if the price is right as l am open minded to any piece of hi-if equipment if it excels. l also take on board the suggestion the ‘mylogic’ handle may be confrontational but there was no ulterior motive why l adopted it. I also own a Logic DM101 MKII electronic which l have restored. Nothing else upgraded except the arm and various cartridges. l rest my case!
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@lewm, I don’t think anyone here is saying that ownership of a LP12 is required before a member can comment on it. However, it would be perhaps better if those who have a negative opinion of the table…also disclose upfront as to their reasoning..and to the fact that they have no ownership of the table. Personally, I don’t have a problem with someone putting their 2cents in, but I do like to know if they are coming from a place of actual experience, or expertise. |
If I were a lawyer or a judge, I would have to side with mylogic. His statement, accurately quoted by cleeds, does not stipulate that if you own a Linn 12 you ought not to comment on a Linn LP12. He is trying to say that whether you own a Linn LP12 or not, you are free to comment on it. Perhaps the moniker "mylogic" is a bit provocative. |
@daveyf Thank you for your feedback. If it’s bad, it’s not always bad but an ‘opportunity’ to review what has been said, digest and see what could have offended. l do recall saying something really bad about the Ittok’s tank-turret like design that may have cut a bit close to the bone.
If l have offended anyone l apologise. I’m not afraid to say that. |
@cleeds I think you nailed it with regards to our friend with “logic”. Lol. |
@mylogic First you state this: “Why that supposition then that things have changed? An LP12 is always an LP12.”
then you state this: “Remember l am on record here stating that l actually agreed with the Linn doctrine when first published with adverts in the hi-fi press. ‘Not all turntables sound the same!’” Now you state that you don’t even own a LP12, but you have no problem denigrating the product. This kind of logic…escapes me. |
Huh? So if you own a Linn LP12, you can't ask questions? What's your point?
Nope, never owned an LP12. It's a great turntable, though.
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l totally agree ‘not owning something hardly frees you from bias’ l never get ‘hot under the collar’ or try to indoctrinate others. My logic……it is just that, my logic! True l have not owned ‘one’ but l have heard a ‘lot’ and l didn’t hear anything to convince me to buy one…even second hand. That’s not biased but a reality as far as l am concerned.
Have you been or are you an LP12 owner who is a little peeved? l have not critiqued the LP12, just commented on the whole ball game. Remember l am on record here stating that l actually agreed with the Linn doctrine when first published with adverts in the hi-fi press. ‘Not all turntables sound the same!’ It was a bold pioneering statement that asked the question in print for the first time. I hope l don’t sound ‘biased’ here? It’s a fact!
UPDATE I have just referenced these adverts and what l recalled is exactly as quoted above. |
I agree with your comments. When you buy an LP12, it's wise to employ someone who knows how to set it up properly. Maybe, there are some audiophiles who know what they're doing, but I'd never attempt to tinker with one. That is apart from putting it in place, setting the counterweight and bias and cleaning the stylus. I set up every other aspect of my system, but never the LP12. In fact, my old dealer said that I was an unusual client. He did everything for most customers. |
Thank you for the reply. OMNIPOTENT….,Got me thinking outside the box again! Made me smile :-) Good to hear a wife open to all positions! More power is always good in hi-fi and she’s on your side. l have just seen a new post on Audiogon (deadhead1000) on a matter l discussed two days ago……. Whether some enthusiasts have ever divorced a wife to keep the hi-fi.
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Thank you for your kind comments. My dealer is very knowledgeable about Linn matters and has been selling their products for decades. He is on Facebook every day advising people on Linn stuff old and new. However, I am sure he’d never claim to omnipotent and there’s always room for individual preferences. I don’t know his views on wall shelves. I think he was just saying that a metal shelf might resonate. On the other hand, my wife is omnipotent. I wouldn’t dare say otherwise :)
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l only stated the obvious…, l have a fair knowledge of the ‘upgradeitus’ syndrome. A common made up word used in the 70s and 80s. ‘An LP12 will always be an LP12’, but l was just being ironic. I have never said that no advances have been achieved with expensive mods or that the turntable itself is bad. Others have said, basic original design faults have had to be inherently addressed with the original LP12 line. The debate on Linn copying the Ariston RD80 and not improving on that is altogether another argument for those who have owned or heard both, l for one have never owned a Linn or an Ariston so l exert no bias in my comments. Historically l have over time auditioned both but passed on both manufacturers in the end. I am guilty in stating on Audiogon l believe Linn’s claims that it was the first turntable that brought awareness that all turntables didn’t sound the same, and that this claim to be true. A Linn LP12 is whatever a person wants to make of it, but of course those persons will need very deep pockets upgrading the basic model. That is a well known thing! Anyone who owns an LP12 who goes on to sell it will always put in the advert, ‘Linn LP12’ before anything else. Lists of all the new parts of any makeovers/upgrades that make it any more special will always of course follow on….. To justify the aspirations of the sellers asking price, and hopefully payback time!
That is just my logic
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@mylogic Perhaps a logical person would look up why the table has changed over time...and not state an LP12 is always an LP12, before making such a statement....No?
@ghdprentice +1 |
Yes, the fiddling stories came from decades ago. A lot of that is probably people not knowing what they were doing fiddling. I can only assume what has happened to make Linn the stable platform it is today is closer tolerances and material science. That make sense to me. I have a friend that is a Linn technician. When he finds a table that doesn’t sound right it is gross negligence in assembly... like putting the springs or cupped spring holders upside down. Absolutely stupid stuff. Once set up they are rock solid. When you have an upgradable table, then you are going to have a lot of people that should not be doing it themselves... doing it themselves. |
daveyf Truth or not the truth, that is the question? Why that supposition then that things have changed? An LP12 is always an LP12. What’s the difference…..now and then?
panzrwagn A friend of mine has an old British Morris Minor, he loves it. He said he has spent more time under the car than in it. I can’t believe the amount of time money and effort he has given up over the years to keep the old girl going!
This sounds very familiar to the hi-fi world and more so with turntables.
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@panzrwagn While what you say may have been true decades ago with the Linn, this is certainly not true today. |
@mylogic You point to car dealerships as comparable to the Linn ecosystem, and I agree. For decades Linns have appeared to fall into the same category as owning a British sportscar, complete with oxcart suspension technology and adapted industrial motors (MG and Triumph-Linn) or fragile cutting edge lightweight technology (Lotus-Rega) that were kept alive by their owners perverse love of a certain ephemeral experience they achieved only once every several outings, when nothing broke, leaked, or otherwise stranded the operator. |
STOP PRESS! lkea bedside tables sell out! Thanks for that great breakdown of your upgrades.
It’s not always the gear that counts but also displaying no fear in trying other solutions. Car damping panels and spikes add more than the sum of all the parts and you may have something here. I was surprised your dealer did not like metal stands. Is he also saying the same for nearly all the turntable wall shelves out there too?
Strange the power supply results as it is far away from the deck relatively speaking. By the way, the wife sounds like a keeper ! |
The Quadraspire was made out of a few spare bits left over from the main equipment racking. The wood clashed with the turntable plinth and some nearby shelving. I tried it with glass shelves, but they sounded terrible. Also, I didn’t like that the shelves dominated because they were bigger than the footprint of the LP12. It was my decision to change the stand, although I think my wife approves. It was her who encouraged me to get another LP12 in the first place after I’d already decided it was too expensive. I am fortunate in that respect - she’s an amazingly generous and selfless woman. You wouldn’t believe the lengths she’s gone to for other people. I wanted a NokTable, but that would have cost in the region of £1,000. As I’d already spent a lot on the turntable, that was far too much. I went for the much cheaper alternative of using an all metal Ikea Knarrevic bedside table customised with carpet spikes and self-adhesive car damping panels underneath the shelves. I couldn’t believe my luck to find something pretty well exactly the right size. My dealer said metal shelves don’t usually sound good because they tend to resonate like glass. Fortunately, I seem to have got away with it. Perhaps, because it’s sited a long way from the loudspeakers. One thing I can’t do is put the power supply on the bottom shelf. That kills the sound of the turntable. |
It’s not just the plinth. There’s a new top plate attached. Presumably that contributes to the sound. I was wondering if, given the huge number of LP12s out there, a company like Tangerine might market one. It would be interesting to see if it was as good and if they could make it cheaper. When I was last in business, we had a prospective competitor who spent a year or more telling all our customers that he’d soon be massively undercutting our prices. Guess what? When he finally opened for business, his product was inferior but his prices exactly matched ours. |
I don’t doubt that there are better phono stages than the Urika. In fact, it wouldn’t be at all surprising if Linn were to upgrade the analogue amplification part of their phono stages along with the Ekos SE as you suggest. I recently heard someone from Linn say that they anticipate a series of LP12 related upgrades in future. However, what they have clearly demonstated with the Urika II is that it is beneficial to carry out RIAA processing in the digital domain, particularly with the improved clock of the Klimax DSM/3. That’s basically the reason why I returned to vinyl after a break of five years. Of course, whether the improvement from thus reducing noise, interference and distortion in the RIAA processing, pre-amplification and also potentially the crossovers with Exakt, not to mention Space Optimisation, is worth the lack of flexibility to use other manufacturers’ components is entirely a matter of personal preference. |
@newton_john