Linn LP12 turntable

Can’t really go wrong with a well-fettled LP12. $2400? Take it. It will need a decent support (table/rack) to give its best.

Perhaps in the top 3 of polarizing table brand/models?

The times I’ve heard one- very nice.

Go on an internet forum, you’ll find both satisfied users/more haters

Trust your own ears, and use the best phono stage/cartridge the budget will allow.

You’ll never get a definitive answer as to how the LP12 compares to some of the other great tables.

@noromance That’s what I was thinking, but seems to good to be true. Got to be an issue… or is that near a fair price. The dealer (I trust) seems to think at that price, it will sell in a week. At $4,00, a month. 

@tablejockey Yes, I read a long forum on audiogon with mud slinging both ways. Seems to be no middle ground. Short term I would mount my ML & keep my Aria, although after TT replacement, the Aria would be next to go. The fact that you included it with other great turntables is very intriguing… how many great turntables can be had for $2,400. 

I would watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCAhllcc_Ew

I think Linn is overpriced, but you found a good deal, I'd take it.

Is your favorite audio store a Linn dealer? Is there one nearby that can make sure it is set up properly, arm bearings ok, etc.?  You are asking the right questions but if all the upgrades were done and they are only asking $2400 I would do it.  It can be a finicky table which is why I ask about a local dealer who will be familiar with all the Linn idiosyncrasies.

@grislybutter Great video… with a surprise ending… a P10, the table I had planned to purchase. 🤔

@jc4659 The nearest Linn dealer is about 3 hours away. 

I have a contemporary LP12 that started as the Selekt (configuration) and I purchased a separate cartridge. From there I incrementally upgraded the tone arm and subclasses... I already owned a top end and better photo stage... Audio Research Reference 3. Outstanding turntable with excellent upgradability. 

@signaforce I was surprised too, pleasantly as I am on my second Rega. I am not an expert but I would think at this level, it's the cartridge and phono stage that matter, the rest is solid both in the Linn and higher level Regas.

I have an older LP12 that I bought from an eBay seller in England. I paid less than $1K for it, including shipping - and no sales tax because this was seven years ago. It had a Grace 707 arm and a mm cartridge. The Grace arm is worth at least $300! I don't know what upgrades were done to it. IMO the Linn upgrades are just to get the owner to keep spending money. The stock LP12 sounds excellent! If you are so neurotic that you need upgrades well it's your money!

As to the idea that only a Linn specialist can properly adjust the LP12 that's nonsense! Just another money grab from Linn! It is no more complicated than the original AR - one of which I have from Vinyl Nirvana. Plus I have two Ariston RD11's  -  Scottish-built cousins to the Linn - which I have worked on and adjusted during different tone arm swaps.

Back in 1978 you could buy a LP12 for $450 here in the USA. Even less in the UK! Ivor Tiefenbrunn was a clever marketeer and milked the hype about it during the onslaught of cheaper Jap direct drive turntables invading the UK. The LP12 is basically the same as the venerable original AR TT from the early 60's. You want a Super Deck? Buy a Continuum Caliburn!

….yawn…1978 left a lot to be desired… But the Linn is a worthwhile pursuit, especially IF you need a spring suspension…

I suspect that IF Grace was still building a 707… it might advance a bit… other than NOS tubes, who really wants an audio company not focused on continuous improvement… especially improvements that can be retrofitted to products from…. 1978.

So nice the previous owner purchased many…

PS a 707 was never the equal of even the most Basik ( that is a test and a joke ) of Linn arms… 

The Rega are good TT…

enjoy the music

I owned an LP12 and loved it, still miss the sound of it. However the LP12 must be “tuned or set up properly” to be fully enjoyed. I had issues with footfall and the LP12 is very susceptible to environmental influence. However is you have a very solid floor or it will be placed on a concrete floor by all means look into it. I actually traded in on the Rega RP10, prior to current model. I am very happy with it but still miss the delicate detail of the LP12. If you do purchase the LP12, please write down the following for any future “tune ups” as this guy is the best. I say that not out comparisons with other dealers, but experience and watching him do the actual set up. His attention to detail is on a parallel of watching a fine watch maker, precision is job 1. He does numberous set ups for customers around the country and will return ship the finished product. Contact Rick Duplisea at Audioalternative.com in Fort Collins Colorado. If you don’t have the box, he will sell and ship you one to properly package it for shipping. Good luck if you buy one as I am sure you will love it.

Everyone should own a Linn at one time during their audio journey. 
 

Hopefully @daveyf  will chime in as he knows a lot about the LP12 and the upgrades available. 

Thanks everyone. Some answers came back on age and condition:

DOM: early 2000’s

Upgrades: New trampoline, tone arm, newer motors control board

Power supply / tone arm: I don’t honestly remember, but I’ll get the answer.

Condition: Spectacular condition in my opinion

Recently serviced: Steve did the motor control board(primary service requirement) literally 3 weeks ago when the client decided to sell.

Looks like my local dealer has been performing the service

Why selling: Upgraded to VPI Avenger with 2 12” Fatboy tone arms. One with a Hana Umami Red, one with a Clear Audio Charisma Moving Magnet. All in it was around $22,000

Are there any other upgrades that are missing?

Other than the retro look (not a fan… looks like my old Dual 1229)… this TT looks like a fun buy.

@theo The TT will be installed in a second floor room (bonus room). I have had very limited issues with foot falls with my current setup.
Not looking to be more susceptible to foot falls. Will I be?  
Not sure what ‘environmental influence’ is. 
@tomic601 Don’t think I need a spring suspension, but it certainly has one. Not sure if that is good or bad… probably bad as I don’t know of a modern table that has that design. 

Signaforce,,  yes the LP12 is more sensitive to footfall. One suggestion I can offer is to place a clear glass of water on the stand for your turntable. Walk around as you might while listening. If the water shows movement then that indicates the level of effect of footfall which the TT will be need to overcome. One thing you can try as well is brace the top of your stand to the wall behind it with a board, short shower rod that can be tightened etc. Then observe the water and see if the movement is reduced. That may help the LP12 in the rejection of influence of the environment or conditions it will be used in.

I hope that helps.

I’ve heard many fine systems from 1979 to fairly recently that had a Linn . I doubt you could do better sonically for 2 to 3 times the cost even used. Listen to it on a good system in the store & see. 

I am not an LP12 basher, but what does the spring suspension do, if the table is still sensitive to footfalls? I mean, why bother with the elaborate setup?

@jonwolfpell A very strong recommendation. Thanks
But not sure what listening at the dealer might do. They have my speakers, but a different cartridge, electronics & room acoustics. Would that not be too many variables?

@lewm A very good question. And the suspension design is very similar to the old AR, which they (supposedly) drove a nail into the plinth with no skipping (don’t believe that… but that’s the story). 

BTW, where are all the LP12 bashers?? If I make this purchase & then you come out… that would not be good…

Not sure that's $12k worth. Get the specs in writing. 

Upgrades: New trampoline, tone arm, newer motors control board

Back in their day, I too saw the advert claiming you could whack the plinth of the ARXA with a hammer without disturbing the sound from an LP in play. Which is in part why I posed my question about the LP12 suspension. SOTA use an inverted symmetrical spring suspension, and Mijostyn claims it is very impervious to external disturbances. This being a benefit of the inverted springs.

signaforce

Yes there are a lot of LP12 bashers and the Linn doctrine of unending upgrades to cash in more money on used decks that still feeds the love/hate stories.

l believe in all the ‘sales hype’ that had fuelled this debate on how this manufacturer engineered the first ‘turntable you could hear’ to be true. What upset the hi-fi world is now evident and often discussed. The alleged supplier/retailer collusions that incrementally began elbowing out ‘rivals’ to achieve overall domination in the UK marketplace. Many equally competitive/reputable brands subsequently unfairly fell by the wayside in the 1980s. Now all this may have come back to haunt Linn for there is now a lot of backlash unintentionally of their own making.

There will always be different opinions on the Linn LP12 (bass bloom/constant fettling /servicing/endless money drain) but you pays your money and you takes your choice!

As to your final choice signaforce, someone has spent a lot of extra cash on this ‘cash cow’ already and that saves you doing the same. If you audition this turntable ignoring any hype and do some ‘sound listening’ and ultimately enjoy what you hear (maybe on home trial) go for it. Someone else has already put the original design restraints to order and you cash in.

Thats my Logic!

The top 3 polarizing/contentious have now been mentioned in the thread.

Linn, Rega and VPI.

Hopefully, the OP follows his ears/wallet to his "Goldilocks" table.

Just don't cheap out on the cart and phonostage!

The road to a satisfying analog rig can be a long one. As you said, many audiophiles own, or have owned, an LP12. Like everything else, there are always conflicting opinions. In any case, the LP12 will be a big step up from your Project table. Considering the past owner’s investment versus the price to you, do you really have a lot to lose? Will you look back later and regret not buying it?

If the linn sounds very good on a good  system, you know it’s capable of doing so which is all that matters. Any system is only as good as it’s source. 

If you take $2400 cash to your hifi dealer and ask politely, will he grant you a week's in-home audition?

@signaforce you said "But not sure what listening at the dealer might do. They have my speakers, but a different cartridge, electronics & room acoustics. Would that not be too many variables?"

and you also said "a P10, the table I had planned to purchase."

Wouldn't the same variables been in play for the Rega or were you going to buy this table without auditioning?  I do agree with the above post that if the Linn sounds excellent in the store then at least you know it is capable of doing so.  Good luck with your decision which ever way you go.

@signaforce I have bought my LP12 about 10 years ago for around $5000. It’s today almost up to top drawer level around $30,000. I have always been happy with it and enjoyed the ride. 

95% of the people giving negative comments on the LP12 have never seen not too mention listened properly to one. Hifikabin is the only platform with people knowledgeable because LP12 users, industry experts, techs.

my non Linn dealer here in Paris sells and tunes top decks for the like of Dohmann, CS Port, AMG, Reed, Thrax, Sat and StSt. Obviously he would be happy if I buy a new deck from him. When he came to install a new cartridge he candidly told me not to change the turntable. If I had any doubt of moving to another deck as for the dual GAS, that made me understand that I should spend money on my existing deck or elsewhere. In fact I think I’ll add a technics SP10 mk3 so to have a top direct drive to complement my LP12.

Back to YOUR LP12:

get something post 2010.
Any part is replaceable / upgradable. 
check the plinth is not warped. 

Regardless of the motor / power supply it comes with, I recommend you to have at least a Lingo unit to power the deck, ideally a Lingo 3. 
akito arm will do just fine. As a cart you can go for the Adikt or popular DV carts.

regardless what your deck will come with, the most important parts to have will be the following and this order:

- Karousel bearing

- At least a lingo PS

- Kore sub chassis 

I’m not here to convince you to go for the LP12, but if you like a sound which is not banal, not excessively coloured and if you like the design of the deck itself, then I would give it absolutely a try. Buy second hand upgrades little by little and in the worst case you’ll sell it. I’m sure you’ll have fun even if you sell it eventually.

@signaforce very important thing I have forgotten to mention:

I had my LP12 serviced my system 4 times in 15 years:

1) When I bought it 

2) when I relocated to France 

3) 1st set of upgrades 

4) 2nd set of upgrades 

and if you check YouTube you will see it’s not rocket science. So I have bought my next upgrade together with a jig and from next week I will start doing the maintenance myself. It’s fun, it’s a new thing to learn, it will make me save some money and not having doubts if my deck is fine or not. 

regardless what your deck will come with, the most important parts to have will be the following and this order:

- Karousel bearing

- At least a lingo PS

- Kore sub chassis 

That's appox $3,500 worth of upgrades.  See how upgrading a LP12 can escalate quickly.

@lewm you surprised me as with your technical bent thought you would understand the low frequency filter a well sorted spring system ( like the SOTA ) provides… and frankly many on the market today TT isolation bases… HRS to note my favorite. 

I am not going to get into the Rega low mass vs rest of TT world debate… i have audiophile / music loving friends quite happy with hot rodding various levels of Rega decks… with … aghast… after market upgrades.. but the RP-10 is an excellent deck… i must admit to giving away a P3/Moth/Signet TK9… hopefully to ?… who will put it on a Rega or Target WALL mount.

re the SOTA… we sold them from day one and had a spare demo table w a Dynavector Ruby that we would loan customers that had footfall issues w lesser ( spring suspension ) TT… Thorens, Linn, B&O, etc…

I don’t remember the SOTA every coming back… and yes it would take a light hammer whack…

re Rick in Colorado… a true analog lover who also sells speakers that are flat in room to 20 hz… so he is VERY aware of environmental isolation….

have fun

if you look in my system photos you will see most of the TT including a 60# Denon w a constrained layer plinth… live on springs..

ymmv always applies

At the bargain price you quote, I would get the LP12 without hesitation. Every single part on the LP12 is repairable, replaceable, or upgradeable. If it dates from the early 2000, then the plinth will be solid and have all the extra braces that were added from the original design. The bearing should be upgraded to the Karousel level, which also includes new inner platter and all the spring suspension parts. If the tonearm board is old, I’d replace that as well, to match whatever tonearm you put on. Now you will have a great TT to use. From this point on, upgrades to arm, cartridge, and power supply are up to your ears and wallet. As others mention, your phono-amp will play a huge part in the sound you elicit. As I have previously written about here, my own Covid-project was building my own LP12 plinth from solid walnut, and upgrading many parts (Karousel, Ekos) as I built it up (I got a jig to hold everything as I assembled it, and set it up myself--it’s not rocket science!). You will end up with a fantastic turntable that you will enjoy using indefinitely.

Thanks again everyone. Great information, particularly on upgrade costs and upgrade recommendations. The included upgrades named were provided by the salesman (actually the store manager), about midnight on Saturday by memory, probably over a glass of wine or two.
Will be able to get more information on Tuesday when they reopen and I can see it and perhaps from the TT owner. I do believe they will allow a trial. 
I looked at the various upgrades:

Trampoline - $317 included

Tone Arm? - Akito $2880  Arko $4550  Ekos $6324 which one was added?

Newer motors control board - not sure what this is… psu motor?

Karousal bearing? $1,130 I would think included, but will find out

Power supply? Lingo PS $2,200 Will find out  

Kore sub chassis? $1,395 Will find out. 

Will also find if is post 2010… probably not, but possible. 
If the recommended upgrades are included, I think this is a no brainer. If not and the price + upgrades gets in the P10 range, I will probably go that route. Thank you again. 

When you buy a LP12, you need to remember that you are essentially buying a modular and upgradeable system. The fact that the table was originally built in 2000, or even earlier, would not concern me. The main upgrade path for LP12’s is as follows…1) bearing, 2) subchassis, 3) and this can be swapped with 2 in my opinion, is the power supply, 4) tonearm and lastly 5) cartridge. Albeit, I have recently acquired a new corner braced plinth, which was a nice upgrade…and might slot in between 3 and 4. 
If you are hampered by a non-concrete floor that has any way of flexing, then I would suggest a wall mount platform, or if that is not possible, a very lightweight stand. The Trampoline 2 baseboard helps greatly in this manner, but it is not perfect if you have floor issues…or standing wave issues. 
As to set up…don’t do it yourself. Period. I know there are folk who were prior auto mechanics and the like who will disagree, but a great set up by a Linn LP12 specialist is well worth it. The old thinking that the table floats out of set up once dialed in correctly, is simply not true anymore.

Lastly , I would suggest getting exact particulars as to the specifics of the table you are considering. So far, it seems to be a good deal, but it should still have a good set up done on it regardless. 

…and to get the most out of a Rega…you should also wall mount it….

Thanks, in either case, wall mounting is not possible, every inch of space is spoken for.
As far as foot faults are concerned, I don’t believe that will be an issue. The system is on the opposite wall from the entry door & it has only been an issue changing the record, stepping heavily when right next to the turntable. 
Assuming the right options are installed, and they support a trial, I will know quickly if that is a problem. 

I believe that the LP12 is actually relatively immune to foot falls, particularly if one is using a Trampoline 2. If there are issues, a very lightweight stand, like a Sound Organization, or a Target stand..and if available, a cheap IKEA Lack,will more than likely solve the problem. 
The only issue with an older LP12 with a Valhalla power supply, is that this is not compatible with the new Karousel bearing, which I believe is the best bang for the money in upgrades…and would be the first thing to change out, even over the prior Cirkus bearing. Nonetheless, a Cirkus LP12 with any of the arms mentioned would be a fair price at what you can acquire it for.

Another happy LP-12 owner here who lives in Ft. Collins and goes to Rick Duplisea for my TT work. Rick is also my Vandersteen dealer. I have grown my TT gradually over the years, sometimes leap-frogging over upgrades as funds allowed. The journey has been great!

Tomic , I was merely responding to posts by LP12 owners who mentioned it is susceptible to foot falls. To my way of thinking, that should be the last problem one might expect with a suspended TT. Which is why I asked. I am not the one claiming that footfalls are a problem; I’ve never owned an LP12, though my first real TT was an ARXA, back in the 70s.

Peace… F = MA and when a spring on any TT runs out of travel… things get ugly… the big Japanese TT are also susceptible on 2nd floors and suspended floors… even the mighty sota eventually runs out of travel….

Turntable suspensions are not designed to intercept foot falls, they are designed to isolate from the motor and higher frequency vibration. I used to have a AR which I literally could bang on the cover while playing and the tt would play on without skipping. But walk by it on the suspended floor would cause it to skip. Don't walk heavily by it while playing if it cannot be wall mounted. This does not need to be an issue. 

Let’s see. With what “higher frequency” did you bang on your AR? Most likely the frequency was 1Hz. A footfall is also 1Hz. So why shouldn’t the same suspension that filters out one one also filter out the other? What’s with F=ma? It’s true and always valid, but what did you have in mind? If you want to describe the force developed in a spring, don’t we want Hooke’s law, F= -kx? I’m assuming a well tuned spring suspension already. But of course a spring suspension needs to be damped; maybe that’s how a problem with footfalls might arise… if the disturbance sets the suspension into oscillation that is not damped.

The problem with LP12 upgrades is that the cost of an upgraded LP12 puts it into competition with a lot of newer turntables which, depending on the listener, may or may not be better. In its original form, the LP 12 was nothing special at all - woolly bass and sloppy sounding and lots of people who were not deafened by the hype preferred a Rega 3. It has gotten better over the years, admittedly. BTW, even back in the 80s when people were upgrading from the Grace 707 to the Ittok, the bearings in every 707 I ever saw were shot. Admittedly, they might survive with a high compliance MM, but most 707s were sold with the Supex 900 MC.

I would think the Linn is a no-brainer because it would likely be sellable for around the same amount if you were less than satisfied. 
 

I had a similar opportunity around 1993.  I had been using a Rega 3 and was generally happy but still wanted a serious TT the likes of which I couldn’t afford.  One day, my favorite salesman at CSA Audio in NJ called me and told me to get there now.  He has a pre-owned Linn LP 12 that was being traded in for a newer shiner TT.  It was basically unused for the 2 years he owned it.  They wanted $900 and the LP12 TT’s at that time we’re going for >$3K. One of the best purchases I ever made for my system.  A different league from the R3.  Everything on the Linn works as it did 30 years ago.  I know there have been many upgrade possibilities since then (this was pre-Lingo).  But my biggest problem has been getting my digital playback to come close to the pleasure I get from my Linn,  I’ve spent way more on my digital playback which appears to be a bottomless pit for spending money.  

At the $2400 price, provided that all upgrades have been done properly, IMHO you're getting an incredible bargain. There's a sense of realism that the LP12 has that has always made it stand out from other turntables.  The mere fact that it has been around for half a century and continues to be one of the more popular hi-end turntables only serves as further proof of this.  Especially since this turntable faces competion that is far more expensive and oftentimes not as good.  

Best of luck with the LP12 if you decide to purchase it! 👍

Personal thoughts….nothing else..,,but highly relevant…..l think?

Car dealerships in the UK potentially make more money on after sales service (Yearly MOT’s, Services, Finance and extended warranty’s) than they do actually selling you the new car.

Are Linn (and it’s dealerships) in the same ball park?

When buying a new car you have made up your mind what extras are wanted and you know what performance you want. I see no difference with buying a record player……

It is a wonder that Linn have never produced a new better model (than the LP12) to negate all the upgradeitus. Is that a real word?. A phrase often used in the hi-fi world in the UK for people who were never satisfied (and possibly a mental illness) for constantly changing their equipment.

The answer is possibly the same….that dealerships like money thrown at an old model maybe more than selling you a ‘new one’ ????

l know personally that when running an old car there are limits to how much l would be willing to throw at the dealer to just keep it on the road, rather than trade it and buy a new better one.

The question l am posing here is….Are the two scenarios any different from each other?

Thats my Logic!

@tablejockey Your definition of ‘cheap out’ and mine are obviously different. Almost all audio components can be bettered regardless of price, with diminishing returns. I have been on an upgrade path with many recent additions. Over the last 2 months I upgraded my amp (LSA > Moon) & preamp (Rogue > BHK)… both significant upgrades to sound. My turntable is next. This Linn appears to be great addition. I don’t know yet what cart is installed on the LP12, but I understand it has about 300 hours left on it. I will either leave it on or swap to my Hana ML. Follow on plans in order of focus:

DAC: Qutest > ?

Phono Stage: Rega Aria  > ?

Cart: Hana ML > Unami Red or Blue assuming a Hana trade in program

I am more constrained by space than by funds, but by choice, my funds are not unlimited. I much prefer price performance, and like our new president, the ‘art of the deal’.
If I buy this TT, over the last 2 months I will have purchased over $25K worth of outstanding audio for only $8.5K. The LP12 is not my first choice, but it’s price performance appears to be excellent. 
I would be happy to hear recommendations for any follow on purchases. Thanks 

 

If that can help you , I did an AB comparison between a brand new Rega P10 and a used LP12 Karousel, Kore, Akito B3, Lingo 3 PS, and Trampoline. Both mounted with a Hana SL. The winner was clearly the LP 12. Better soundstage and bass among others. Recently upgraded the Akito to the Arko. Wow! Even better openness , dynamics , bass and soundstage. IMHO a minimum Lingo PS and Akito tonearm , Kore, and Karousel is what is takes to make the LP 12 comparable to newer high end turntables. Good luck and keep us posted.