Bondmanp, as you stated,it would be a difficult choice without a return option. I'll consider it but I need to do more research. |
I was in the same boat not long ago and my short list was very similar to yours. In doing my research I soon realized that most people involved with primarily digital audio setups are on a different better or worse scale than the analog side. You can usually trust the, "it sounds better," remark, but I found just how much better is much less than analog. So, don't stress your budget unless digital is going to be your new primary source.
i5 Mini Mac 8GB, Pure Music > Miecord ethernet cable > Air Port Extreme > Squeezebox Touch / Channel Island Pwr Spl> StraightWire Data-Link RCA SP/DIF > Metrum Acoustics Octave DAC >
If there's ethernet anywhere in your audio chain study up on Miecord. Don't go nuts on SP/DIF cable, Berkeley Audio ships Straightwire with their gear. In my perfect world I would lose the wireless and have a dedicated Mini and a display which would change things to USB and possibly a different DAC that would cost twice as much. Screw that! This set up is surprisingly good.
I'm replacing a Denon 5900 Universal DVD/SACD with the full boat ModWright Absolute Truth tube output stage and outboard power supply modifications. This player was equal to and usually better than those DAC's on my short list.
I need to point out that my experience with digital is limited to auditioning seven DAC's in my system and I'm not counting anything I've heard elsewhere.
That said, the little $700 Metrum Octave has been a stunning surprise. I was unable to audition this DAC but I can honestly say that everything I've read about it is true. IMO, there is a fundamental difference between LP and Digital that will NEVER be the same. The better or worse is not the point. For the first time I'm hearing an ease and lushness that, while different, is as nice as analog. For me this was huge and makes suggesting the Octave easy.
Now, if your all bothered by the need for 192, USB, Balanced, etc. then my research took to Empirical Audio and the soon to be Hot Rod DAC or Lampizator $1500 - $6000.
The best advise I can give is, don't go overboard, remember the incremental improvements are small and the cost of diminishing returns and quick obsolescence is stupid. Save your money for great speakers.
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Read the comparison between Elberoth2's dCS and the Metrum Octave in the, "Experience with Metrum Octave DAC," thread. |
Vic,
I appreciate your response especially your advise not to go overboard. Digital is not my main source but I would like to hear music smooth and full and not too digital. From what I read the Rega and Burson might fit the bill for under $1k. I'll look into the Octave also. My digital system is simple, I'm using the Squeezebox Touch connected with a USB cable to an external hard drive and will feed the dac with a coax cable. |
I like how the guys at Burson design their gear around the true analog sound, adding the DA-160 would make a nice mix between analog and digital. Have a listen to it if you have a retailer near. |
+1 on the Metrum Octave...doing wonders in my system Logitech Transporter > Shindo Masseto/Cortese. |
Jcote- Is your Transporter stock or Modwright? |
All stock...most of the Modwright mods impact the analog outputs which are pointless if taking it out to an external DAC. The Transporter is known for it's ultra low jitter so I don't feel the need to add an external clock source either although i'd give an Empirical Audio Offramp or other clock a try to see if there was a large enough improvement to consider. The Transporter does have a word clock input. |
"In doing my research I soon realized that most people involved with primarily digital audio setups are on a different better or worse scale than the analog side. You can usually trust the, "it sounds better," remark, but I found just how much better is much less than analog."
Agree there is a much larger difference in sound quality in practice between the best and worse analog setups out there compared to CD/digital.
With digital, improvements with the digital source alone may be quite marginal at some point with greatly diminishing returns. Unless you are rolling in cash, I recommend doing the homework and starting with a well received sub $1000 DAC and see where that gets you compared to say any high end reference systems out there that you might have access to for comparison. |
Wonder if it's worth to get the Metrum Octave to connect directly to a SB3 through optical link without reclocker?
Thanks. |
The Da-160 is a solid choice. Currently working on my home setup. |
"Wonder if it's worth to get the Metrum Octave to connect directly to a SB3 through optical link without reclocker?"
K330,
I contacted Metrum with the same question
"While I am waiting for my Octave to arrive I have one question. Some have said that the Octave is very jitter sensitive and that a good quality reclocker between the Squeezebox Touch and the Octave will improve sound quality. Is that possible or even probable? There is so much of what I call 'Voodoo' in the audio industry and amongst audiophiles that is hard to know what to believe. I don't like wasting my money on imaginary benefits ;))
To which they replayed
"Yes there is a lot of Voodoo so be careful. As you know there was a very good reviews from 6moons and the Hificritic where the dac was compared with very expensive units (+ 10000 Euros) and it was very close. The Octave has a very low jitter ( below 40 pSec) so there is no need for some extra gear to reduce this. Difference in sound by this gear is mostly created by upsampling and people do not realize that this up sampling methods create ringing in the signal. This is what you hear , pre and post ringing. There is no need for such devices as you cannot create info which is not actually there so please forget such gizmos . Only real hig res. material improves the sound."
Bottom like for me is that I am very very skeptical about many (most) of the so called audiophile 'upgrades'. When the manufacture of the product calls upstream jitter reducers (in so many words) a waist of money, I trust them a 1000 times more then any supposed audiophile claims.
Earl |
Earlxtr,
Thanks for sharing your communication with the vendor. Same as you I do not want to pay a few hundred bucks for a DAC and then find that I need to spend another couple of hundred to be able to fully take advantage of it. Too bad there is no way to audition this . |
I don't know, guys. I have no vested interest in neither answer, but reducing jitter at the source makes sense to me. The way Cees answered the question seems he might be referring to no device needed to lower the jitter introduced by the Octave, why is very low indeed. But I believe the issue at hand is jitter included in the signal supplied to the Octave. Another designer, Steve Nugent from Empirical Audio, is constantly saying he believes reducing jitter at the source (before the DAC) is the single most valuable thing in digital audio - I know, he sells a USB to SPDIF converter, but he also sells asynch USB DAC.
When several users consistently report improvements using USB-to-SPDIF converters, and the better regarded converters consistently outperform the lesser converter+Octave combos...I tend to believe there is something to it.
As far as the Touch (the original subject of the thread) + Octave, in a couple of months I expect to start reading reports about Empirical Audio's yet-to-launch Synchro Mesh placed in between, which is exactly aiming the jitter at the source issue. We'll see what users have to say!
Such interesting times in digital audio! Enjoy! |
The manufacturer (Metrum) states that no matter what source is being feed to it, it reduces the jitter to <40ps. (otherwise the 40ps claim is pointless and they would not consider a jitter reducer a waist of money). I would think they know their own DAC better then anybody and would know what would make it sound better.
Since each word of data arrives every 1/44,100 seconds or 22676ps (for redbook material), 40ps is a 0.176% possible variance, which is extremely low. Even if you feed it with a lower jitter source it would likely not improve the actual jitter of the DAC.
IMHO, you can Google "The ten biggest lies in audio" and add reclockers to the list, at least for the Octave.
Earl |
Yeah, you are probably right. Bunch of fools hanging around here taking the time to try different USB to SPDIF converters, then taking the time to share their findings with the rest of us. And gets worse: it's group thinking too, as they all tend to agree!
You might want to educate yourself about what jitter is. I don't think a DAC can reduce what jitter is being fed. Might have ways to mitigate the nasty effects of a jittery signal it receives, but can't reduce it. DACs do introduce their own share of jitter, though, and I believe that is what 40 ps is. But you can believe what you'd like...you are likely thinking I'm a fool already! :-) |
My squeezebox touch died over the weekend. The logictech logo appears only and then shuts down after about 2 minutes. I unplugged it but it did the same thing again. Instead of looking for a dac, now I need a music server also. So I decided to step away from the Touch and purchased a almost new Olive 04hd music server here on agon. It's an all in one system (Cd ripper, music server and dac with both analog and digital outputs) so I don't need the Welbourne power supply I purchased and the separate 500gb powered hard drive. Anyone interested in purchasing the Welbourne power supply let me know. I'll throw in the hard drive also.
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VERY happy SB Touch->Metrum Octave user here, I was sleepless for a couple of nights before I received my DAC thinking that I might need an interface box but when I got everything going it worked so well I decided to leave it as is. It would be nice to go BNC to BNC to accomodate the cable I'm using(Black Cat Silverstar 75) but again, sometimes best to leave well enough alone.
I have been a DAC of the month club member since the Benchmark DAC1 first came out but this one will have me off the merry go round for longer than the others I think, the presentation is a lot better than anything else I've had. Was looking at a possible $5k upgrade as that seems to be the level where you realy get a big improvement these days but my "Champagne taste on a beer budget" attitude towards audio led me to the Metrum.
It has detail, great separation and excellent tone but somehow manages to be very easy to listen to at the same time. For the price I figured I'd take a chance and I'm glad I did... |
Audiojedi, I also use the Black Cat SilverStar between my Transporter/Metrum combo...luckily I have a BNC out on my Transporter but the Metrum needs to be modified to change out the RCA for a BNC. It's on my list but I have yet pulled the trigger. If i do it and remember to check back in here, i'll let you know if it is worth it. |
I got the Audio DG Digital Interface just for kicks and it made absolutely no difference to the sound over the Octave itself, at least to my ears. The manufacturer was correct, don't waist your money. My Digital Interface is going on the ebay. Bye Bye... |
Earlxtr,
Please tell us more about the way you used the Audio DG: Was it SB Touch > coax > Audio DG > coax > Metrum?
Thanks! |
Elem79, I have a question. Did you ever have an issue with clicks and pops after a while with the sbt and iDac? Sometimes I need to switch away from the input I'm using and then come back to eliminate the issue. Usually it comes back after a while. |
