Looking for a good full range floor stander

Take a look at a pair of Daedalus Apollo 11’s and add a pair of BOW’s later if you feel they need to move more air in your room.

@audiotroy:  <<Every large flat panel speaker will have a terrible image because of defraction>>

Balderdash.  You just lost any respect I had for you before.  One of my best listening experiences over 40+ years was with a friend's pair of Martin Logans.  With a tube front end, Cannonball Adderly was playing six feet in front of me - and the Martin Logans were 15 feet away.  It was everything we strive for in a home system.

Keeglam the Martin Logans are NOT Flat they are curved.

Apogee and Magneplaner are flat. Martin Logans and not conventional flat panels ,they do image better than a traditional flat panel, however, the image in most flat panels tends to be larger than life which is a cool effect but does not sound as real as a well set up pair of conventional dynamic loudspeakers.

Sounds like hair-splitting.  Planar speakers are OK as long as there's some curvature?  How much curvature is needed?

The original Quads are - in your opinion - flat or curved?

Audiotroy, when you go to a large say stadium show what you see are very large usually JBL linear arrays. They are in no way point source because point source loudspeakers suck in that application for the same reason they suck in large rooms. Now, you can do the same thing with dynamic drivers such a the Near Field Pipe Dreams or the Carver Ultimate Line source. I have heard the Pipe Dreams and although capable of huge volume they could not image. I have not heard the Carvers. There are applications where point source speakers are the way to go. But as I said before Unless you want to sit right on top of the speakers this is not one of them. All this is in Loudspeakers for Dummies. I suggest you read it. As I said before, Maggie 20.7s are the perfect speaker for this gentleman. They fit all of his requirements, will do 95 dB in this situation and image much better than and point source speaker. The only reason I would not recommend is if he liked listening to very loud rock and it does not seem that he does. Another issue is that as background music throughout the room the Maggies and any other linear source dipole is going to sound more natural, less strained, larger and more powerful. It would not be unusual with some special recordings to think there was an actual person across the room singing. That will never happen with a point source in tha application. Palidin, I encourage you to find a dealer and listen to these if you can and have a look at them. They are also really quite elegant and make a great conversation piece. 
There are some people on this forum that spew off mindlessly without knowledge or experience. Taking their word for anything is dangerous and very expensive.

Oh, Martin Logans do not image any better than any other ESL or Ribbon loudspeaker. They are compromised by having to cross to a woofer usually at 250 Hz or above because the curved panel is non linear. Sanders, who designed this panel for ML abandoned it as inferior which you can read about on his web site sanderssoundsystems.com. 
As for size it all depends where you like sitting. I like being up front in the first 10 rows of a big concert and at the stage in a small venue. Point source speakers put you in the back of the hall. If you increase the volume to try and get yourself up front you get a very surreal effect of a band playing very loud at a distance. 

You have a very large space to fill with sound and you have a Bryston 14Bcubed so the power is not an issue.
If you look at the Bryston line, they have the Model T Signature speakers (which I have) and they are pretty amazing in performance with a huge amount of dynamic output.  I am using my pair in a 30x35x18 room with a pair of Anthem M1 mono's at 2000 watts per channel and it sounds outstanding.  I would seriously consider these speakers.

audiotroy2,

You must be a dealer.  When I was looking for speakers, I thought Focal, B&W and Keff's were some of the worst out there.  Focal's aria line is one of the worst (look at the reviews).  When I heard them I asked the dealer, "Where's The Bass?"  There responded Focal was the only audiophile speaker out there.  I then told him audiophiles must be allergic to bass.  I was not impressed with either B&W 804's or Diamond series.  The first thing I thought of you got to be kidding these speakers sell for $17,000 and $30,000 per pair.  You've got to be kidding me.

You must be a dealer who sells these brands?

I listened to Martin Logan Motion 60's, B&W CM10 and 804's, Golden Ear, Definitive technologies, Vienna Acoustic's, Monitor Audio Silver 8, 10 and Gold series and ended up with my Paradigm Prestige 85F's.  After purchasing them, I went back to listen to the all the B&W's and couldn't believe I liked Paradigm better.  Shortly after I purchased them an ex-friend sent me an article discussing how 3 way are better than 2 1/2 way speakers.  He turned around and purchased a pair of SALK Song Encore's at the RMAF knowing they were 3 way.  He always made sure he was one up on me and I finally came to my senses and told him to go pound sand.  I think there are a lot of snobby audiophiles that love doing this.

After this discussion, I think dealers should not be allowed to participate.  They slyly pretend to be consumers only to sell their own stuff.  

After reading your responses I would imagine many of us feel you should be banned from participating.

Just telling it like it is.  I am sure this will fire up further discussions.

If you looked at the reviews and looked at their performance numbers, they lived up to what they sounded like to me.  I always wonder why Paradigm gets left out.  They are certainly better many of their competitors in that price range.  Chris Spies is by far also one of the best manufacturer reps in the industry.  Can't find a better sales person.  He explained how they developed a corrugated material inside the cabinet walls and the 2 1/2 way cross over to make them a 93 db efficient speaker to boost an extra 3 db.  This in turn allows the Prestige series to distort music less.

SALK manufactures high end speakers with active bass woofers and they can certainly fill a room.  However, the retailers don't want to hear anything about how great SALK speakers are because Jim sells them direct so he doesn't have to sacrifice the quality of his cabinets and drivers.

I think it might be interesting for someone to lead a discussion asking those of us who are dealers.  We will then be able to put two and two together.

larry5729

audiotroy2, You must be a dealer... I think dealers should not be allowed to participate. They slyly pretend to be consumers only to sell their own stuff.  After reading your responses I would imagine many of us feel you should be banned from participating.

Please speak for yourself. Audiotroy is well known here for being a dealer - he certainly hasn't concealed that, nor does he pretend to be a customer. Dealers are welcome to participate here under Audiogon's terms of use so if you have any complaint, it is with Audiogon, not audiotroy.

Larry we say we are dealers and we have every right to be here.

As per your quip about Salks or brand x sounding better than a commercial brand a lot of dealers showrooms are not optomized for sound. Some dealers have poor soundrooms or dont sell good matching  electronics so somtimes an opinion of a product heard may not be as good as it could be.

Sorry to rain on your Salk love affair yes his speakers are a great value.

However there is only so far you can go with stock Seas drivers.

It is our feeling that the true leaders in any industry design their own parts which are usually vastly superior this requires a substantial capital investment.

Look at Rockport, YG, Magico, Paradigm, Kef, B&W, Focal there is a reason why their speakers are in the rarified air of compannies that continue to push innovation and whose products are consistantly setting the bar.

This is also why these products cost more to buy. Many large companies spend milions of dollars in R&D.

Salk falls into the nice guy that builds a good product by stuffing a box with great parts and selling direct which does win over a lot of guys.

Sorry to disagee but the leaders in the field of loudspeaker design all work for companies that can afford them.

Guys like Floyd Toole, Lawrence Dickie, are pushing that bar, Jack Oclee brown is another. Ever heard of Harmon, Vivid and Kef guess all of these guys produce inferior products to Salk right?

Sorry larry for having an opinion if i want to buy a real sports car i would go to a Porsche dealer not the kid selling a souped up Subaru down the street for a lot less.

Good luck to you.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor

I think audiotroy would be the last dealer I would buy speakers from.

Audiotroy, It’s not what you say, it’s how you say it.
Your tone is frequently confrontational and valid points get coated in vitriol.

And BTW, there are some Subarus that can kick major ass.

Rja we speak our minds sorry if we come across bluntly.

For you haters we dont miss your business we cant teach a closed mind.

As per the op very large room there is a difference in filling a large room properly and it requires a lot of displacement.

We have allready broached the subject and gave the op our recomendations 1 speaker we sell 2 we do not.

Usher DMD Mini Dancer 2

Audiotroy, Most audio sales people I have known, and I was one once, were rather poorly educated, impressionable, dishonest, mythologists whose sole purpose was to sell whatever stuff they had in stock that had the largest profit margin. It was so disgusting that I quit and created my own consultant business designing and installing systems for people in Coral Gables just south of Miami. It was based solely on reputation and word of mouth. I had a blast.
rbach, there are many issues in Hi Fi that are strictly a matter of taste such as a preference for tube or SS electronics. Some issues are a mater of experience like what speaker will go best in what room. But there are issues that are a mater of well known and proven science which are frequently overlooked to other's detriment. Not good. Again I refer everyone to John Eargle's Loudspeaker Handbook. There is a lot of math in there but his explanations are wonderful and he covers everything. It is a great reference to have and I think every serious audiophile should read it and it is OK to skip the math parts:)

@rja , +1
Bob

mijostyn

Most audio sales people I have known, and I was one once, were rather poorly educated, impressionable, dishonest, mythologists whose sole purpose was to sell whatever stuff they had in stock that had the largest profit margin.

Wow, you must have been hanging around with the wrong crowd. My experience has been just the opposite: Most dealers have been very well educated, often with technical degrees; absolutely honest; and patient so as to allow the customer to make up his own mind. I wouldn't work with a dealer that didn't uniformly act with integrity.

@rja

It’s not what you say, it’s how you say it.

You nailed it.

There an adjective for those BMW salespeople who curl their lip at the mention of Mercedes, Audi, etc. And that is: obnoxious.

@cleeds ,
I wouldn't say sales people were poorly educated, but my decades of experience with NYC dealers made me cringe, that is until I met John Rutan at Audioconnection.
Unfortunately, those cringe-worthy sales people seem to be alumni of another dealer whose name I prefer not to say- Much like the Wizard World not uttering Voldemort.
B

Evening

There's only really one name you need to know and that's Pallmann. They have a single serpentine drive and an aluminium finned German power unit. That said, if you have a smaller room this could be overkill. Remember to remove absolutely everything from the room, seal doors and windows, and  overalls, gloves and a respirator. Good luck 

Cleeds right on. 

What you have going on are people whose feelings are hurt if you dont endorse their choices or believe like they do. 

We move in and out of products if we find a better one these are all just tools we are not married to our sound systems.

As dealers we endorse our products because we believe them to be excellent and considering we sell multiple brands of loudspeakers we dont feel one is necessarily better than another but better for certain tastes and attributes.

All you guys need to cool down your negativity, the advice we gave to the OP is sound. 

As stated before there is a difference in just playing loud and filling up a very large room with sound.

Bill Dudelston of Legacy is in to displacement hence he uses 12 inch or larger woofers which have higher power handling then many of Salks designs which use  8inch woofers.

If you want to fill a big room, play loud, not overheat your amp, have headroom and not cook your drivers you need large speakers with high output and power handling.

Many of the choices given here dont fit that mold. High efficiency means less power accross the voice coil to accheive the same spl which means less chance of failure of either the amp or the drivers.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

What most people dont realize is that Audiodoctor can probably carry any brand/line they want.  They carry and promote the ones they do because they clearly believe that they are the best out there.  Why is it that people don’t understand that?

If a Dealer promoted a speaker they didnt carry I would immediately ask “if its so great why dont you carry it?”

A respectful delivery goes a long way when exchanging ideas in this forum.

I have no dog in this hunt but would like to say something about audiotroy. 

I called him several months ago about a potential speaker sale. I had never spoken to him before. He spent about 30 minutes talking to me asking about my room, system, listening habits etc. We talked cables, power conditioning, amps, speakers and more. In the end, he felt like the product I was interested in might be too much of a lateral move and I should wait till I was ready to take a bigger step up. 

It was probably the most enlightening and enjoyable audio gear conversation I've had. He never went into "sales mode". He took a lot more time to go over things than I was expecting. It suggested to me that he is interested in building a business on satisfying customers rather than pushing people into buying things that aren't right for them.

Imo, he carries a wide enough range of brands that I feel he can provide a quality system for anyone's tastes at any budget. He also makes it very clear that he is a dealer and offers a lot of great advice on here. I don't have any problem with his contributions to this forum. I don't get the animosity towards him.

I have read alot of Audiodoctors posts and I have never seen him/them be even remotely disrespectful until after they have been attacked.

Everyone needs to stop being so delicate, especially online.

I think disparaging planar speakers is most disrespectful.  They may not be your cup of tea, but accept the are players of quality.

The idea that 4 ohm speakers cannot fill a big room is absurd.  Yes, they are less efficient, but that is easily mitigated with the right amp choice.

You statement concerning planar speakers is like me saying box speakers suck and adding some drivel attempting to support that position.

It is that type of rhetoric that gets people’s back up and want to take you on. 

Gee this is fun. I will now respectfully bow out. I encourage everyone with interest to read respected manuals on the subject of speakers and all their associated parts such as my favorite, The Loudspeaker Handbook by John eargle. There are several such books but this one is easier for simpletons like me to read and understand. 
paliden, good luck with your search. Do let us know what you decide to do.
stfoth, thanx for the reminder. I was thrown up on yet again today by a young lady who suffered food poisoning. Goes with the territory. 
cleeds, most of my experience with audio sales people is back in Miami, Fl 1980. My relationship with those I respected was on the level of personal friend. But I can tell you from audiotroy's behavior that he is more typical of the types I knew in Miami. The difference is that I do not sell anybody anything. I have nothing to gain or lose. I am sure Audiotroy is as nice as they come as long as he thinks he might sell you something. Make no mistake. He is here fishing for customers. If you do not believe that you are naive beyond anyone's help. My own mantra is, never trust a human who is trying to sell you something. Humans are far to dangerous. Rock and Roll! 

Mike

Ihaguy, sorry for having a dislike of planers, are they horrible, no they are not be we have a long history of living with and working with them.

The major issue with planers is that the image tends to be very disembodied, we call that the 8 foot James Tayor effect, sure it is a cool effect but it is not realistic.

Another issue is the restricted dynamics.

We have heard the Apogree Grandes, and the Martin Logan Statements and both of these giant planer/cone subwoofer hybrids suffered from similar issues in their day and where both fun sounding mega speakers but neither one of those flagship products were truly believable.

Fast forward to today, with the best dynamic drivers and speaker systems you can listen to a large set of speakers that dissapear and yet the images sizes are realiistic and the speakers convey the dynamic flow of live music.

In the past we have lived with original Quad ESL 63, Quad US monitors coupled with dual Entec subwoofers, as well as Magneplanner 3.6 and all of these systems were lovely with the right music but failed to sound realistic, the Wilson Watt Puppy 3/2 and the 5 changed that for us

At the Capitol Audio Fest the Wilson Alexs the giant $110k ones sounded amazing on Krell gear, the images were spooky real, and at Axpona the big Focals were extraordinary.

Both of these systems sounded way more realistic than any of the planer systems have ever sounded to us.

Again it all comes down to personal taste and what sounds real to you.

Milostyne, dude you need some help: "My own mantra is, never trust a human who is trying to sell you something. Humans are far to dangerous. Rock and Roll!

All of life is interacting with other humans, if you ever try to ask a person out for a date you are selling something, when you go to work and you have a discussion between another guy discussing sports or politics you are tyring to use statsitical data and opinions to get your point across that is also selling, selling doesn’t necessarilly mean that money has to exchange hands.

As per your past experiences with dealers we dont' try to shove products down anyone's throat, if we have a product which we think will improve someones musicall experience we will recommend said product, if not on many an occassion we have told the person to keep what they have, sometimes keeping what you got is the best advice until a change makes sense. 

We don’t have to quote a book to know what these things sound like we have lived with them and went into a store everyday for close to 13 years and played with the most exotic and expensive reference loudspeakers you get to learn a lot of what works and what doesn’t, not to mention going to shows and peoples houses and hearing lots of systems.

And by the way we are not trying to sell the OP anything he could be any where in the world, our suggestions are for him to decide, If he wants to come to our shop and hear our products that is fine but the likelyhood of selling him anything is very remote.


Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

One of the things audiotroy never mentions is service and support. I really don’t understand this. One can have a great sounding speaker, that they paid a hefty price for, and the workmanship or design is such that it does not last. Having to have speakers serviced really sucks and having to work with unsavory dealers and manufacturers sucks even more because who wants to pay for shipping, replacement drivers or extra repairs? A rather successful audio brand sold a pair of custom speakers to a guy here on Audiogon and they were falling apart on delivery!! The nightmare he described on getting his money back. I cannot take any dealer serious when he does not mention these important speaker buying considerations. BTW I have never heard a complaint about Salk’s customer service. He seems to take pride in his workmanship, the parts that go into his speakers and the quality of sound. I think if I heard Mr Salk talking about speakers in one room of an audio show and audiotroy talking in a room across the hall, I would spend my time listening to what Mr Salk had to say and listen to his speakers.

2psyop, with any story there are two sides. One did the defective speaker come from a dealer or was used?

How do you know the exact specifics? Do you think this disgruntled person telling the story was necessarily telling both sides if there was one.

You also omit one key fact, the day that Jim Salk has a heart attack, or gets hit by a bus, ( we don’t mean this just making a point,) what does this mean for your resale, or servicing then?

Look at the poor schlubs that own Green Mountain Audio, or Merlin or a 100 tiny independent manufacturers that have come and gone intersesting that that idea never enters your head. Sure there are instances when larger companies go belly up, however, innovative ones keep on comming out with newer and better products that keep on pushing the envelope which keeps the company afloat.

What happens 10 years latter when you blow a driver and that driver isn’t made any more and Mr. Salk doesn’t keep a ton of spare parts like Kef and B&W does?

You may dream all you want but the biggest and most successful companies got that way from careing about their customers.

Also one of the things that a good dealer does is to make sure you get good service from the company. Just knowing who to talk to can make a huge difference.

If you want to talk to Jim Salk at an audio show vs us, no biggie, Jim Salk has experience limited to his designs, while we have 30 years of playing with, setting up and working with many of the world’s greatest speaker manufacturers.

Sure there will always be innovative small companies, but realize this that buying drivers and putting them in a nice box, does not a speaker company make that is the definition of an assembly company.

If you want to see real innovation in advancing the audio art it lies with the companies that have the resources to really push the envelope.

Good luck to you.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Troy,

Do you know much about Jim’s background?

Jim, along with those he partners with to design and voice speakers is awfully distinguished with loads of experience. Not sure why you seem to have an issue with Salk and tekton, though I could guess.

He is also no threat to the sales of any of the big companies. I don’t believe that is remotely his goal.

As for support in 10 years... anything can happen. Signed Energy, Mirage, snell, and a host of others. Some of Jim’s drivers are custom and yes, could be hard to find. But The same thing goes for the big boys. Particularly with consolidation in the industry.

Are jims speakers the best, no. Do they provide one heck of a value, along with custom finishes that for many are worth the smaller company trade-off? Yes.

Many dealers come and go, and many dealers churn through brands.

As for the OP, if you could find used Salk SS12’s. Those would do the job in that big room (if you have the power).

legacy focus se or xe would also do the trick.  I do think the focus SE is a good speaker.  

Side note, buddy of mine loves his older legacy’s, but had a rubber surround tear and he couldn’t get the driver.  Had to be glued.  The getting older parts thing for just about everyone is a crapshoot.  

Dep we have no issue with Salk he does seem to make a nice speaker.

We also endorsed both Tekton and Salk models that would work in the Op large room please see our other posts.

The points raised were to combat 2psyops line that small indedendent companies are better than the big boys.

Nor do we think that Legacy makes the worlds best speakers they happen to sound great and are also an outstanding value.

Legacy buys their drivers from other companies so they too would fall 
Into a similar set of caveats.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor

^ again, insults being thrown by you and not by Audiodoctor

Sfoth what your major malfunction? Sir Green Mountain audio was not disparaged in any way, the point being made is that a tiny loudspeaker company, or electronics company run by a single guy has a built in limitation.

Most of these companies do not have a continuency plan if the lead designer, kicks the bucket.

David Belles makes very nice products, we passed on the line as David Belles is getting up there in years, there was no discussion of who would continue in the event of his demise.

Sorry Sfoth but we didn’t write the book humans die, mortality is part of life, for that reason Merlin was mentioned as Bobby Pavolivic died, so did Roy Johnson. What are the customers of Green Mountain to do when or if their loudspeakers break? What is the now resale value? Can you get your loudspeakers serviced at all?

That was the point,

One of the reasons we tend to stay with bigger manufacturers is that these companies have grown to the point where they can weather any storm and stock parts for 10-20 years back.

Look what happened to Thiel when Jim died, they did not have a contingency plan, and they were a bigger company, then some of the companies mentioned.

So this issue should be considered a least in a small degree when a new company gets on the scene.

In the case of Salk at least he uses parts from major vendors so this conversation may or may not apply.

Good luck to you sir.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor

You may want to checkout the 
Totem Tribe Towers or the Sky Tower speakers. The Totem Element Metal may be a little out of budget. If you like jazz, as I do these are phenomenal speakers that will give you a holographic Soundstage that is unbelievable. Whether you sit on axis or off axis you will feel as you are always sitting in the sweetspot. They are made in Canada and you won't find many who have heard of them. It's worth googling just to get a better understanding of the technology and the amount of sound they produce from such small drivers. They are somewhat difficult to drive. 

I will enter my final comment on this thread.  There is an entire community of planar fans who support the planar asylum.

Many are Maggie owners who have amazing systems with a variety of supporting gear.

Now they are either all stupid and have the same taste in music presentation or Audiotroy has no clue about how to make Maggies sing.   

I understand they are not thumper bass oriented and room treatments are key to getting the most out of them.

In my room James Taylor sounds like he is sitting on a chair in the room and playing delightful acoustic guitar, such that you want to offer him a drink when the song is over.

Beware of “experts” who know everything and trash what they do not understand.  I am sone here.

Good luck in your search, keep an open mind and sorry for having to interject some reality here. 

Back to which speakers to get, for that sized room the Klipshorn is the way to go. Hands down.

Steve

audiotroy"Sfoth what your major malfunction?"

He can only feel happy, content, and satisfied when he is insulting, degrading, and bullying others like he likes to do with you. It makes people like this feel smart, important, and respected and can be shown by the way he says he speaks for others on this cite and knows what they think, feel, and prefer. 

@paliden  Also worth taking a good look at the larger offerings in the Daedalus line made by Lou Hinkley in Washington State.  They offer high sensitivity, but can also equally well be driven by more conventionally powered amps.  And Lou is a delight to talk with in person.

ihasguy, there are always a few groups of anything.

In our opinion after having worked with many, many different types of planers we have yet to find a single system that is based on a flat diaphram to have a life like and believable image, with the kind of bass reponse and dynamic shadings which we have found in either line source loudspeakers like the Scaenas, or the best dynamic loudspeakers.

The issue with the best dynamics is that you need bigger speakers to create the same sense of image space, the difference is that these speakers then create images which are more in the size and scope of a realistic image size, do the best dynamic speakers have flaws of course they do, it depends on what you find appealing.

The OP should look at a set of JBL they will fit our criteria for high efficiency, high power handling and high output,  don’t know the bass specs on the model you quoted.

As per the major malfuction line who was attacking whom? Sfoth made a bunch of obnoxious comments because in the context of comparing a large manufactuer to a tiny one man operation, we mentioned a little thought of fact which is a one man company may have zero plans for contuinity in the case of the death of the principle.

Mortality is a fact of life and one of the advantages of purchasing a JBL or Focal or KEF, etc vs a tiny company like a Green Mountain Audio, Merlin etc is the likely hood of getting service and support for many many years into the future, we also mentioned as Salk uses good commercial drivers that that may or may not be a problem.

Honestly guys many of you need to ligthen up. These are discussions on products, nobody is instulating anyone’s wife.

There are Porsche Guys who like small 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder tubo changed engines and Ferrari guys who like 8, 12, 0r 16 cylinder naturally aspriated engines, which approach is better depends on the taste of the driver.

We still stick by our points about flat planers that there is nothing to push against, and when you bass wave is out of phase from the in phase front wave form as these are diapoles you have diapolar cancellation, and poor bass and dynamics. Couple that to an image which tends to be too large based on deffraction you will see that for the strengths of low coloration and a fast clean light weight driver you still have those weakness to overcome.

The only planer to date we have found which did not seem to have many of these issues is the Mura SP1.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ