Maximize Mini with Roon to match my system -- or new component?

I went through a series of three minis, unique upgrades with each. I'd say the two most substantial improvements were in order of importance, lps then OS optimization. The Uptone MMK no longer available, don't know of another solution, minus another option I wouldn't continue with mini, quality power supplies are extremely important for any streamer. If you could find a used MMK, bundle that with an Uptone JS-2 lps, extremely high quality choke based power supply. As for OS optimization I shut down virtually every conceivable service, even to extent of going into DOS and changing command lines (this can be risky if you don't know what you're doing). Hopefully you're not using wifi with the mini, remove antenna, this is noise maker. There were any number of guides as to how to optimize minis for high quality streaming, hopefully these still out there. In any case there is a fair amount of diy involved, if not willing or able, I'm sure you'll get many suggestions for off the shelf streamers.

I ditched the Mini years ago and moved to an SGC i5 with Sonicorbiter OS to run the ROON core.  Sounds way better than my Mini did.  Wouldn't dream of going back. 

Ideally get a Roon endpoint dedicated streamer, buy used.

Optionally, put a Singxer SU-6 DDC in between the Mac and DAC, and add a good SPDIF cable to your DAC, it will be a very significant upgrade to your sound. Also, debatable, but free, upgrade your Mac to use Ubuntu rather than the Mac OS. 

Thank you all for your feedback... lots to process....

The Singxer SU-6 DDC ($700ish on ebay) is an interesting option... how would this setup compare do you think to spending a 2-3k on a dedicated Roon streamer? 

Thanks,

Richard

Dedicated streamer in your price range is far better investment vs SU6 or any DDC.  DDC is marginal improvement vs a quality streamer, these icing on the cake, and then only for dac's with I2S input. I previously owned Su6 and now own Denafrips Gaia, these are some of the LAST components to purchase. At 2-3K price level the Sonic transporter would be good move. At some point later down road, separate Roon Endpoint will be further upgrade\. I've been down these roads, speak from direct experience. 

Mac Mini a good choice for Roon core/server.

General purpose computers in general tend to be somewhat noisy so not sure if any general purpose computer is best choice to run a streamer, Roon or otherwise.  I’d look into a good quality dedicated streamer just to compare and find out if better.  I run a Cambridge mxn10 streamer for Roon and can definitely recommend that as a low cost high quality option to consider.

Also if using USB from a computer you want to be using usb audio class 2 (uac2) and usb 2 or 3 to support higher data rates.

Ditch the Mini ASAP — huge bottleneck to your otherwise nice sytem.  Unless you’re planning on keeping it for a long time, throwing more $$$ at the Mini is a waste IMHO and would make much more sense to put those funds toward a dedicated streamer.  Innuos makes streamers at several price points and come with their Sense app that’s widely regarded as the best and most user-friendly app in the biz, and several have even dumped Roon it’s so good but I believe it works as a Roon endpoint if you wanna stick with it.  If you give a budget you’ll get more specific recommendations.  Best of luck. 

You wise audio maniacs have convinced me… I am Switching course to a dedicated streamer! 

What are the recommendations with the following qualities:

-Roon Compatible (I use Roon for my Muti-zoned house, and simultaneous playback

-Compatible with my DAC (HoloAudio Spring 2 Level 3 Kitsune edition). I saw someone mentioning that I should get a streamer with I2S output for the Holo. Also hear that Halo Audio recommends USB inputs. (?)
-Future proof (within reason)

-little or no maintenance 

-2-3K ish.... 

I see in this and other threads the following streamers: (Bold seems the most mentioned)

-Aurender N200 or Aurender N250

-Innuos

-Denafrips Gaia

-SGC i5 with Sonicorbiter OS

-SonicTransporter  I7 (12v 4 amp linear power supply to power it)

-Lumin U2

-Teddy Pardo LPS

-Antipodes K21

-Roon Nucleus Plus revision A with an Upgrade the power supply (s-booster). Plug in external hard drive or install internal.

Some questions and use habits:

-Prefer no dsp (is this a mistake?)

-Small digital file library (80 gigs). Have been gravitating to mostly streaming and vinyl.

-Currently I have my network as follows: Ethernet to AirPort Extreme to my mini.

-Where to find a good price? eBay or new on Amazon or….

Thank you!!!!

Richard

I see that the Aurender N200 is 6K new. Pricey, but if it Matches the rest of my system then I would consider going for it. 

What Streamer would best match the rest of my system? ... not be a bottle neck?

Thanks,

Richard

... and also would be happy to purchase used, as I may be a simple use case with less of a digital library and an emphasis on streaming with Roon...  ? 

for instance, on eBay a used Aurender.... 

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=aurender&_sacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p4432023.m570.l1313

too many choices! 
 

I’d recommend Innuos or Aurender.  Some of their models also allow you to rip CDs and/or store your music onboard so you can have all your music in one place.  Here’s a few used at various price points…

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisbe282-innuos-pulsar-network-streamer-transports

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650230502-innuos-pulso/

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650228329-innuos-zen-mk3-2tb/

Mac mini is fine as roon core. 
get a roon ready streamer as recommended above. 
 

I would avoid buying audio components or cables on ebay. Deal with sellers who have good feedback here or on US Audio Mart. 

Good choice to move away from mini, the mini isn't much better than any other general purpose computer in stock form, I know directly from experience with three of them. 

Running Roon dictates your choice of streamer to some extent. I'll state Innuos and Aurrender not best choice for Roon, they're both optimized for their proprietary music player apps. At one point in my research on upgrading streamers from my last highly modded mini I settled on Antipodes as a great off the shelf streamer for running Roon, powerful processors and great power supplies,  Antipodes owners could give you advice for used models to look out for. If you want new in your price range, I l like the SonicTransporters, again we have powerful processors, add quality outboard lps and you have nice setup for Roon.

You have very limited choices for streamers with I2S output, and I'd question the quality of that I2S. In my view its only worth going I2S if the I2S clock and power supply to that clock in streamer/ddc is superior to dac's master clock. The I2S cable in itself is of little or no benefit, virtually all the benefit is found with the potential of running an external clock with superior clock and power supply to that found in dac, this being the master clock. No other input allows bypassing dac master clock.

... thank you all... 
 

it does seems Roon limits me somewhat. and I've been reading up on the Lumin U2 and it seems like a good fit... 

will read up on the Antipodes... Anyone have a sense of how Lumin U2 and the Antipodes compare? 

Addicting....

r.

Your speaking of full size U2, not the mini. If this case a quick perusal looks nice, haven't determined exactly what processor its using, but they claim Roon ready component, generally you'd hope this means optimized to run Roon. In any case its not a bad thing to go with Roon, great interface and sound quality when optimized, I find it's sound quality superior to my own proprietary Euphony Stylus music player app.

Also I am reading about the Nagra Streamer. Does anyone have experience with this? It gets a good review in Huff and its only half a year old... I like the simplicity and its Roon ready...

r.

Am also wondering if you all think getting a 5k streamer is out of proportion or in line with my system (which retails a total of about 22K presently)

Not at all, your setup very nice, Pure Audio Project speakers would be on my have to listen list if I were in market for speakers. I previously owned PL Dialogue amp, the Holo is nice. You could also look into some fairly easy mods for the PL, thread running at the moment where 'gon' member modded his PL with caps and some resistors, fairly easy mod, I modded my Dialogue in somewhat like manner well worth it, especially with a nice streamer.

I was thinking the same thing for my next step…! Cap upgrades to the amp. I read about several, but what is the latest word on what to do? Which type of cap?

I’ll know better after the streamer upgrade, but likely I would lean towards separation, soundstage, glitter…. Magic…. Cello forward…. 

I agree with ditching the Mini, as the OP has also apparently decided to do.  I have been very happy with Cambridge Audio Streamers.  Excellent sound, very good app, and not needlessly expensive.  Streamers are after all just networking computers that are optimized for audio and it isn’t necessary to go OTT financially to get excellent quality 

Well, now that we have loosened the purse strings, the options improve. But I have a question for the forum, why not keep the Mac Mini as the Roon core and invest in a lower cost streamer that can act as a Roon endpoint? This separates all the noisy processing and unless you are doing some DSP work should deliver good quality audio to the endpoint over the network. It is a significant cost increase for a streamer that can run the full Roon stack and deliver quality sound.

As for recommendations, I run an Innuos Zenith now, but I am leaning towards Antipodes if I choose to upgrade. 

But I have a question for the forum, why not keep the Mac Mini as the Roon core and invest in a lower cost streamer that can act as a Roon endpoint? 

I tell me story ...again.   I was streaming with a Bryston BDP-pi.  Its just a Raspberry Pi implementation with good components and Open Source MPD.  Totally satisfied with the SQ.  Frankly thought it sounded great.  

Then I spun up a Roon Core on a Mini with a trial just to check out the interface and used the Bryston as the endpoint.  The Bryston easily switches back forth from dedicated streamer to endpoint.  I wasn’t even really paying attention to SQ.    I had the Radio Paradise app going witch streams at 16/48 FLAC and has a reputation for sounding as good as any radio stream.   Cant remember what but I was fiddling with the set up and I realized something was different.  So I sat down and put an ear to it.  Thats when it became obvious the ROON’s sound stage was flat as a pancake, depthless.  Bummer. 

After researching on here I re hosted the Roon Core to and SGC ST i5.  Upgraded the network cables and hooked both the Bryston and ST to a mesh node. Bang, Roon sound close enough to the Bryston for everything but the most critical listening.  If I want to eek out that last little bit of SQ experience I simply revert the Bryston back to the MPD player and enjoy.  For most of my listening its ROON.  Total cost of the upgrade was ~$1.3K.

Note:  Typical experience.  Something pops on Radio Paradise I really like.  So I check out Qobuz version and see if its in HD.  Then give it a whirl.  If I really like it then I switch to the Bryston and listen on Qobuz.   Sometimes its yields those final SQ nuggets and sometimes it don’t.     

Per the PL upgrades the Duelund CAST coupling caps and I believe the VHAudio caps on bias board OP in that thread are A+ choices. These will provide the qualities you seek. By the way, the PL was part of my amp rotation along with Auralic Vega dac when I was playing with various Mac mini streamers, I could appreciate the difference with streaming mods with that setup.

With Roon the Core streamer is far more important than the Endpoint streamer, Core does all the heavy lifting, this has to manage the interface, indexing of sometimes huge libraries, interface with Qobuz, Tidal or some other stream provider, and it runs the actual Roon player. All this requires relatively high level of cpu, RAM compared to more basic/proprietary music player apps, so more powerful cpu, more RAM required for a quality Roon streamer. And then we have critical need of quality lps for thee streamer, this probably the most important aspect of any streamer. Running Roon core on a stock mini isn't much better than using any other general service computer, I know because I directly compared time and again, and I did many mods over many years with a number of minis. The highest possible mini I could possibly assemble didn't come close to competing with my present custom build streamer. I can decipher the design of these off the shelf streamers, the Lumin and Antipodes spoken of here will deem any mini, even fully modified, obsolete. Now, if your'e comparing $2-3K streamers to modded mini, the modded mini can compete, perhaps win here, but then you're likely $2-3K in on modded mini.

Ditch the Mini, not worth dumping a lot of money into it. Any streamer you purchase will require updates, and will have a EOL date. They are basically computers, will not last the test of time like other products. As soon as the "app" leaves the app store, the unit is a brick.

Buy your streamer of choice, then just plug in your external drive into that, enjoy your music. 

@jbuhl  @sns  Thanks for your commentary and experience regarding Roon core on a mini, very helpful. 

Update. 
Out of curiosity I got the clear Cardas usb cable, and just hooked it up between my mini and dac. 
 

this is just such a revealing system, feels dramatic compared to my cinnamon aq. 
 

I am waiting for the nagra streamer….