Oilman, You have developed perhaps one of the most remarkable and cost-effective turnarms that duplicates what has not been obtainable for we lessor audiophiles. Thank You for opening the door... |
Readers: I am in the process of reviewing a new, inovative product " The Friction Damping Tonearm" a patient pending TT whose parts appear to cost next to nothing with a potential to replace tonearms as we know them. Nothing is certian , no opinions other than what I expressed. More to come much later. |
Readers: Todate, the the designer of the Friction Damping Tonearm has yet to make arraignments so that I may purchase and experiment with his tonearm. Perhaps other commitments are taking up his time. I will keep all informed. The tonearm can be viewed at www.tonearm.org. |
Sorry, the Tonearm designer has withdrawn the design from sale. So that's the end of that. |
charlie
I am thinking about building a prototype arm similar to the arm on my maplenoll to see if it would have some marketing potential. I will keep you informed as to my progress if you would be interested. It would be an airbearing/linear tracking arm that has full vta/vtf/azimuth adjustablity. |
Oilman, That would be a killer !! |
i will keep you informed on the project. Be patient, i work slow. Once i have the design concept down, i will send you a copy. |
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Readers: FYI some excellent pic's of a Walker Proscenium Black Diamond's air control system w/plenums and tubing configuration shown on Item, 1213341044 for the DIY crowd. |
Readers: A tidbit or two. As may know I'm dedicated Noll'er. Unless you are one of the most fortunate of all owners, this table can drive the novice crazy with all its querks. For instance, I recently had a email exchange with a fellow who did not know the air plenums adjacant to the quite air pump need to be evacuated of water every 6 months or so. He didn't ; waste water in the two small pleniums backed-up into the pump, there goes $700 bucks. Another, never move the Noll with the platter on. That one cost me the center pin , a hard bird to find. All the best. |
AS may know ... As you may know ... (sorry) |
Readers: This weekend I received a flyer in the mail from www.harborfreightusa.com, detailing sales to 6/9 including a Central Pneumatic, Quiet Pump: Oiless Compressor,1/4 horsepower (rated) with Air Tank Capacity 3 Gallons (Model # 90168). According to a review of the manual the max. pressure is 120 PSI, Air flow Capacity.5 CFM@90PSI,.7 CFM@40PSI with a weight of 18 LBS. The sale price $67.00(regular price $84.99); the pump is made in China. The pump pictured in the flyer is complete with regulators ; gauges and pressure switch (all UL listed). Perhaps a replacement to Maplenoll quiet pump ?? Personally, I'm going to drive to the nearest outlet to give it a look over as a reserve unit. Just want other 'Nollers to know the information. |
R: I drove to the closest Harbor Freight and "auditioned" the quite pump. The news is mixed. It appears the pump can power a 'Noll and while it is "quiet" no Super Quiet here. The pump seems quieter than the origional 'Noll 20 PSI but much noiser than the Super Q. It requires a sound damping enclosure and placement far,far away but on a tight budget with no where to go ... It is a inexpensive limited option for the DIY'er but no Super Q. I only used it @90PSI so perhaps its a tad quiter @40PSI. |
Crem1
Is the cfm at 40psi high enough for the arm?
Also, is there anyone that can look at their Super Quiet pump and see what make and model it is?
The problem with the stock (any of them) pumps is that they are not oiless.
-Jim |
my experience is the oiless pumps are alway noisier than a corresponding oil based compressor. Not sure why but the specs with most brands confirm this. Having said that, the price is right for this compressor. You could mount in a separate room and run the tubing pretty easy thus eliminating the noise issue in the listening room. I did that when i had a shop air compressor in my workroom at my previous location. |
Jdubs: 40 PSI is about right for the 'Noll tonearms. As I understand the Maplenoll Super Quiet Pumps were made in Canada and are devoid of most label/plate markings (at least mine is). They are heavy, black and football++ sized. Someone sugested that they were refrige-type pumps but I don't know that factually. The SQP is not like a most brand pumps but was a "homemade" by Bob Dilger. |
Crem1, I had heard ~40psi for the arm, but am unsure of the necessary cfm at that pressure level. Any idea what's needed?
Let's keep this thread alive. I think it would be great if we could get a "new" air system that's at least comparable to the stock Super Quiet Pump.
-Jim |
Jdubs : I agree we should keep this thread going. Charlie |
In tackling the issue of air system, i went a little overboard and got a junair compressor. It is a pretty quiet compressor but is oil based vs oil. I have a oiltrap on the outlet of the compressor and use the pulsation tubes (walker audio product) and do not have problems with oil or water getting into the table. THe compressor will service both the platter and arm but i also went with a renn air pump for the platter. this is an aquarium pump that can run continuously but only puts up about 5 psig. thats enough for the platter so i use it hooked up directly to the platter and use the junair compressor for the arm. The CFM for the compressor is approx .5cfm at 120psig. THe compressor is pricey but is built well and should last a lifetime. this compressor is used in the medical and dental industry primarily though Pluto audio uses this line for thier ultraexpensive tables. I have owned the compressor for a couple of years and have been very pleased so far |
Oilmanmojo,
what are the specs on the Renn pump? |
Readers: Those of you rebuilding the air control system might want to consider purchasing item # 01118, Central Pneumatic, Air Filter/Regulator Unit on Sale with Harbor Tools.Com or a store nearby for $29.00. The unit looks like its a part from the boat "African Queen" but it works. Just remember to dope all the connections. What does it do? The unit regulates air pressure from 0-160 PSI and removes moisture and oil from the compressor lines w/ a reusable filter element.In combination with my entire air control system, it works very well. Its the "heart" of the air system. Cheers |
piedpiper: sorry it took me so long to get back to you, the pump is actually a rena air 400. It is made in France by Rena (aquarium pharmaceuticals) and I got it at Petsmart. It is the largest one this company makes. Unfortunately it does not have a spec sheet like an air compressor. I do know it puts up about 5 psig using both of the air nozzles and i have approx 300 ft of tubing run to the platter. Remember I also have the lighter platter and not the signature like you have so I do not know if 5 psig will be enough. but its cheap (60 bucks) and it works like a charm. Its designed to run continously so it should be pretty reliable. I have used it for over 1 year with no issues. It also allows me to use my junair compressor for the arm at the higher pressure. I do not know the flowrate but again it works fine with my platter. Sorry i could not be more specific with the specs. I know the pressure because i have a pressure gauge on the airline going to the platter |
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A better web site for the air filter/regulator unit, item 01118, is www.harborfreight.com |
Threaders: I have been re-reading many of the 'Noll articles and an interviews with folks associated with air bearing tonearms and tables. Somewhere between page 1 of the re-read and today my "big picture" view of Ariadne's changed . The use of a stethoscope push me over the edge. The conclusion : These tables are noisey just like So-an-So argued. Why ? For its all in the micro-world; the noise of the motor, the sound of air pulsations ... you can't deny what a "stet" sends to your ears.
Certianly, the air bearings help but these tables just breathe way to much. Whats funny is the air-control system I built is pretty much dead quite @ 46 PSI. So, whats up ?
Perhaps,an answer is between the Web postings that claim the Athena's got it so right they just blew the Ari's away in the sound department ... Thats when a few things clicked. Could it be that those Ari's noises are associated with audio reflections related to the coupling to , or the interface of one sub-unit/part to another? The Ari's has hard surfaces, not lead or wood via The Athena . Its a fact ... All Ariadne's are covered in a hard surface that stuff sits on or is attached to or bolted together.
In conclusion, the Ari's are micro-noise machines in need of good isolation/damping. Noth'in new here. Piedpiper mused on that somewhat in the past. But, I now view the problem as significant enought (regardless of whats been already done)to warrant a re-build.
Before going any further, I want to return to the Air Control System. Its nearly dead silent so why is the table so noisey ? One guess (besides removing the motor)are the SOTA damping materals used in re-attaching the pliniums , tubes , regulators and air control units together , the table is actually void of that stuff. The other issue is the Ari has too many inherient clunks when one taps on the table. For example, the metal spacers that hold the air manifold in place are hollow an' noisey when tapped with a fingernail. The "Stet" send that clunk right to your ears. Why not replace them with 1+" wooden dowels w/drilled out centers enought for the bolts to pass thru , a thin coating of dampining goo painted top an bottom of the dowels ,as well as, the inserted bolts painted w/ goo as well. Or, just fill the open metal rings with dampining goo?
Now I'm facing a real challenge. Sometime soon I'll put into practice what which I feel will bring my 'Noll to new musical heights . Any new ideas appreciated. 'Nollers stay tuned. |
Thanks Crem. Keep fighting the good fight. I'll be thinking about it as well. My guess is that there are too many conflicting theories to rely on any one for your direction so intuition and experimentation are likely to pay off better; and the proof is in the music, not in the tapping. Remember that evacuation of resonances can be more important than damping, at least in certain places. Determining which are which and how to best implement will be key. Removing the motor is big, and I still want to build a separate plinth for the arm as well. Good luck. |
Thanks for the advice : I agree "the proof is in the music,not in tapping". Be assured I shall experiment as to which resonances need to be evacuated and those that can be damped, as well as, those better left alone.
The areas I intend to focus upon are: The manifold & supports,the addition of a micro thin perforated interface between the top bearing plate and the lead platter , a small micro-fine mesh screen insert that covers but not obstructs the offset air induction-hole built into the inside the bottom plate; the use of high temperature-solvent resistant thread dampener rather than super gluing some parts/screws , the isolation of motor resonances using soft gel compounds ; a removable insert that slides into the 7" tonearm that can be adjusted as to length & will not alter arm's mass while reducing resonance and lastly using metal tape to block potential RFI exposure where the RCA jacks had once exited out the Table.
When I determine if any of these ideas work I shall post the results. Any and all ideas appreciated. |
Another tweak that Bob Dilger told me about way back when is to turn a piece of balsa wood so to fit snugly inside the air bearing tube to dampen resonances there. One could do the same for the arm tube itself. I never did either. Another is to put all connections, splitters, valves, plenums, filters, etc, upstream of the bulk of the air tubing so that air turbulence resonances are smoothed out by the time they reach the arm. The platter is not so sensitive to this. I'm sure we can do much better than the stock Hurst motor, not to mention adding electronics to minimize resonances. |
Piedpiper : Thanks. In regards to the motor issue , I aquired a complete motor , base and wall-wart. I will replace the wall-wart with a much better power supply.The motor unit is to be pluged into a line-controller so speed issues will not be a problem.
I have stocked Lo & Hi Teck materals ; most are available at lo-cost. Work is to begin as soon a few buds assist to dismantel the Ari.
The center pin is to be examined for possible replacement. The origional pin was replaced years ago. It is my opinion the center pin is a weak link. I did attempt to have a ceramic-compound pin made but no one wanted to do the job . My tool&die maker friend has retired to somewhere in Germany (ceya). The balsa idea seens to be a good one. But, how do you open the arm tube with the plastic plug already cemented in ? |
The plastic plug is not cemented in very well. When i was modifying my arm, i had to tap a new screw thread and found it came out during drilling. There were two plugs in mine. I have also considered replacing the armtube with a solid piece of graphite rod to avoid the resonance factor. Just have not gotten around to completing this yet. |
Oilmanmojo : Thanks for the info. charlie |
The reason for using Balsa is to keep the overall weight low. Bear this in mind when choosing an alternate material. Perhaps using very high pressure (more than 60PSI) precludes this concern. |
Piedpiper: To be sure I understand: The modification suggested is to replace both the arm tube and tone-arm with balsa , rather than to uncap the arm tube to insert a snugg fitting balsa dowel inside the tube ,itself, then regluing the end cap. Should I replace the arm tube, a Woodcrafter store is close and I recall a dowel department-all types. Getting a dowel turned is the tricky issue. I presume the dowel shound be fine sanded, sealed, painted , lightly sanded (800 grt)and perhaps resealed. P/P I understand the weight & pressure issue. Even with a second pump as Oilman I doubt I could get more than 4-5 PSI, presently I 'm @46 PSI. Readers please feel free to express your comments/ideas. |
'Nollers : Following watching Jolie in "Wanted", I stopped at the local WoodCraft Store chatting with the store manager "EJ". We discussed the possibility to convert several metal parts on the Ari' into wood. I infrequently visit this place just scanning over stock for ideas. EJ mentioned that a former employee is a world-class woodworker and analog-head. The guy apparently is into turntables and maybe interested in making a few replacement parts.EJ said he would attempt to hook us up. I looked over a selection of exotic hard woods & dowels ; ideas kept popping into the mind-broth. Nothing firm but also scads of solid brass parts to use as end caps , screws, bolts as well as wood inserts and replacement parts for the air bearing tube and tone-arm. Only time will tell how all of this will "turn" out. Its a good day when I can fuse Jolie and audio-play together. |
charlie
sounds interesting. If you use wood, be sure to seal it well. wood will absorb water(from humidity in the room or inthe compressed air) and possibly swell. THe key to the airbearing is the perfect fit between the airtube and arm that justs allows enough airflow to float the arm. if the dowel swells, you may have some issues with fit. |
Oilmanmojo: You have highlighted a key question that must be answered in more detail. The alternate is to fill the sleeve with balsa. The tone-arm is different from the perspective that once sealed it should not swell. I have some ideas gleamed from conversations with Bruce Tigpan for completeing the tone-arm. At this point I am not convinced that either my initial or later ideas are better relative to each other. Thinking and a tad of time will help. The key here is what EJ termed "reverse engineering" ... I get it. |
Oilmanmojo: As I awoke the medical motto "First Do No Harm", came to mind along with the following;
An alternate route is to apply feather-weight damping compounds developed by GE as mentioned in earlier postings , uncaping the bearing tube, filling the inner space and then recaping.
Or, a complete revision using carbon fiber tubes for the bearing and tone arm (Tks for the idea & materal). As for the tone arm ,the method for internal damping slightly differs: Prior to filling the arm tube a teflon tubeing is centered for the passage of the phono wires(w/exits front & back ) ,light-weight dampner leveled into 70-80% of the arm tube space, back to front. The challenge is of course end cap hardware and the VTA screw shaft, should the design be manitained.
The effective mass of the arm will change ,the "geometry" should be the same. Head-shell weights in different grams will likely be required (ss,lead & brass are options).
Joe Grado mailed his tri-point headshell weights to me years ago. Modified fan weights can be used inconjuction with the Grado Tri-Points, if extra weight is a must. For that, I'll go back to the books for a final answer.
WoodCrafter EJ suggested because the high pressured bearing manifold expells air mixed w/ oil & water vapors , wood is not a first choice for the bearing tube ; all wood swells in time. Filling the factory tube or a carbon redo are options . For the arm tube anything goes, metal, wood or carbon ... Of course, the "math" is important, enought brain goo for now. All the best. |
FYI: The air bearing and tone arm have been disassembled. A carbon fiber (now) & wood (later) arm tube w/slight modifications to the arm lift on back of the manifold , bass & lead counter weights for the arm , the bearing tube opened & filled w/ GE dampner, maple plugs countersunk w/ brass threaded incerts for the tube,VTA unit modded and walnut supports for the manifold . AQ phono plugs w/cardas phono wire for the carbon fiber , 46 ga. 9x9 solid copper for the wood arm. The manifold is to be cleaned , inner sleeve brushed & manifold lightly dampened. More later. |
FYI : Scott Leventhal contacted me with a listing of replacements for the quite pumps. I shall post soon. Scott is one of those unsung 'Nollers always willing to assist. Thanks Scott.
PS. He wrote the more informed manual for the Maplenoll Line. He knows the platform. |
Crem,
sorry to be out o touch. I'm on the road and not near internet.
The suggestion was to fill the existing air bearing tube with snug fitting balsa. Using wood for the bearing is not an option due to tolerance issues. |
Piedpiper: Thanks for the explanation. I just sent you an email before checking the posts. Have fun. |
charlie
I have my armwand filled with a silicon material to minimize the resonance. I have a teflon tube much to what you highlighted in the center of the armwand to snake the phono wires through. I am not sure it made that much difference though as my first iteration was just the carbonfiber tube. Both sounded better than the stock aluminum arm. I still think one of the keys in the success of my arm is the ridgid construction and clamping system as compare to the vta adjustment with the stock arm. i was never really satisfied with the stock arm because it could be easily flexed. I also feel the direct connection from the cartridge clip all the way to the phono stage adds some value though it is difficult to set up with those fine wires instead of a traditional leads. Please keep us informed as to your progress. I am still working on my project that we discussed earlier, though a new work assignment has me backed up right now. |
Oilmanmojo: Thanks for the input. I feel this is an exciting time for us 'Nollers. What I'm attempting is both short/long term , filling in knowledge blanks and making one last effort using the 'Noll arm design. I do think I'm on to clamping down the vibrations by replacing some metal & plastic with wood 'an GE goo. A little bit of 'Ol Bob, LLoyd , Michael Green , Van Evers and the AG troop with a dash of crem1. The table itself is the object of attention. The Music Hall Motor w/ all the goods should make a huge improvement. Keep up the good fight with your arm design. I never forget how easy it is to unbolt one for another. But everytime I listen to a Frank Schroder T/A I wonder why I don't convert(answer-$$$$). I will keep you informed . |
Crem1, this is great news on the pump! Any details you can post on it will be VERY much appreciated.
Thank you!!
-Jim |
All Travels Begin With A First Step :
Yesterday , the Maplenoll began its journey back to a box of parts. This is not the first time that I disassembled the Maplenoll. The change here is to completely break apart the 'Noll ... part by part, sub-assembly to its components that are to be examined , cleaned , renewed or replaced. This is a top down revision that I believe will substancially upgrade this table into a direction with the finest air bearing tables .
My first objectives were the Tone-Arm Lift , the Air Bearing Tube & Platter in that order.
The Tone-Arm Lift has never seemed to move smoothly , now I understand the reason; the block body was cut too wide obscuring the need for a clip to secure the stainless steel rod offset into the lifter. Without the clip , the rod had too much play shifting ever so little as rotated stressing the cantilever & stylas as they entered into the LP grove. I bought the Noll from Fred Kaplan , TAS reviewer. I don't think he ever understood why the cartridge suspensions were trashing out on a couple of his Hi-priced carts. Oh, Fred, thanks for the AQ 7000 after a redo it works great.
Following a lot of sanding , miking and plain grunt work, the lift moves perfectly w/ no slop. Another discovery, sanding the block to be a dense materal that's rock hard ,grey in color and quite dead to a knuckel rap . It appears to be a plastic resin of some sort. Since Bob D. was also a weapons designer who knows -- Maybe surplus stock from other project? Well, only Bob or LLoyd know and they arn't a part of this thread (yet). Next it was off to Home Depot for Rust-Oleum "Professional" Primer. Its as good as they note on the can, highly recommended.
The Air Bearing Tube :
After all the head work I did on this one the answer was so simple; Just pop the plug on one side & fill the inner space with Dap Tex-Pluse , a window & door foam sealant. Hi-Tect foam that expands slowly allowing for the tubes re-capping. The end result ? As lightweight as before & no ringing . Within hours that tube was as dead to a rap as I have experienced. Now for the Big Momma ...
The lead Platter : This was to be a 600 grit work-over , as I had done before but my inner sprit got caught up in the moment: Starting back side to front , grunt work began safety first its Lead , respirator , gloves & glasses on so the sanding began -- for hours . I found that paint covered hundreds of casting inperfections that eventually disapeared as I sanded /to polished the back to a satin finish. The old addage " painters hide the mistakes of carpenters " applied here. I removed almost all gouges, imperfections and casting lines, not to mention a myrad of lathe marks. A good dusting and then several coats of primer that leveled into imperfections so small you needed a mag glasses to see them. The gang at Rust-Oleum knows what they are doing. Enought daylight for clean-up. On to another day. |
Scott Leventhal's Pump Suggestions in no particular order :
www.silentaircompressor.com see Super Silent Pump DR-500; sale 4620 + S/H, reg. $ 900.
Thomas Industries Model 900-13-59E @ Granger Industral Supply
Wisa Rotary Pump & other aq. pumps starting @ $400 & up.
A note from Audio Asylum @ 1/3 HP Technmseh Refrige Pump
Scott also included some other links that were broken.
For my money the DR-500 is the one I intend to use, should the SQ go belly up. |
Re: arm tube resonance control, Bob pointed out to me years ago that, yes, you could make the arm less resonant by simply slipping an O ring onto it, but that it killed dynamics. Choose your poison. |
Piedpiper : How about a Bud instead , actually I prefer red wines. According to Johns Hopkins the mushroom is the ticket.
I'll know soom if the foam sealant is the ticket is or out... The good news it can be easily removed not like past products. Enjoy your neck of the woods. |
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The Maplenoll is in baggies and a box. Anyone even can do the break-down. "For those who wait all will be revealed" jumps into mind. To Bob D. "I get it" , to Lloyd W. thanks for your interviews, letters and vantage point.
The grunt work ; sanding, polishing ,painting and quieting , nothing that can't be accomplished by anybody who can turn a screw.. The secret ? Just a little Dab will do.
Once dismanteled its easy to see the the spots that need attention ; as the days go bye I see the ease of this project.
FYI: From the back-side you clearly see that the inner-body of the table is constructed of MDF and 2 lead centerplates, and about a dozen sheet metal-type screws. Friends thats it besides the holes and cut-outs. Oh, the rubber parts: They are cracked , brittle, broken and dry. The years have taken a toll on the rubber ,as well as, the washers , screws, nuts and bolts. No Problem, everything is available @ The Home Depot.
Now back to work ... Ah just Kidding Its the 4th of July. How about a burger and a Bud ? All the best to America. |
