No bass on B&W 800D2

In my 25 year quest for good bass in my "new" 24x20 ft room, I finally started addressing SBIR head on with acoustic treatments. It made a _profound_ improvement and now I know the answer to my problem. SBIR will really mess with your bass in a large room or just if the speakers are far from the walls. I think the theory says to use largest possible traps on perpendicular surfaces so it’s very different from treating first reflections for mids-treble. I’m using GIK acoustics soffit traps standing on end and placed to absorb bass from both mains and subs with additional 244 ER traps used on walls. Next, I’ll add bass some bass traps to ceiling mount above the mains.

As to why the 2 pairs are so different, are they both plinth loaded/ported? Agree that a larger amp with more grunt might do more than you’d expect. Amps do sound very different and each 3db of increase requires doubling your power.

Make sure all the wiring is correct and then  Turn Up the Bass.

I'd go to a tone generator site and listen to see if the bass sounds way down at low frequencies.  My guess is it won't be and what you're missing is the bass transients/texture.  I've had this experience a couple of times and the solution was to double the power.  I don't know the technical explanation but having a lot more power then you'd think necessary solves this problem.

Online Tone Generator - generate pure tones of any frequency

Many years ago I owned a series of B&W speakers, working my way up through the Matrix series to the Nautilus 800s. I bought them off the dealer’s floor and they sounded great there. My living/listening room at the time was 9X13X8. The N800s, really big speakers, could only be about 20 or less inches from the front wall. I could never get them to image well or produce the prodigious bass they were capable of. Ultimately, after a couple of years I traded them in on some then new Wilson Watt/Puppy 7s. They were marvelous. Those great N800s were just simply too big for my room and could not do their thing. They needed more space and to be four feet out from the wall to make decent sound. All my Wilsons since are in larger space and 40+ inches out from the wall sounding transparent and disappearing completely.

@oneofew +1

that’s why I asked the OP for room size, speaker placement details and listening chair distance to speakers.
To move the woofers on those B&Ws, which is what you need to produce the bass you can feel, you need current. And the 200w/ch Classe amp is most likely not going to cut it. Especially if the listening is at lower levels. You will hear the bass but there will be no feeling it. In either case, to @ghdprentice point, these speakers are very accurate and all the drivers are integrated and tuned for accurate reproduction. You can’t compare the bass subs reproduce while playing a movie to the bass reproduced by speakers while playing music.

Woofer diameter matters because it affects the size of the sound wave. I've had a few different speakers in my room with dual 7" woofers that produce "apparent" less bass than some other pairs of speakers with dual 5.5" drivers that actually filled the room much better. My best guess in your situation is the 802's simply play "nicer" than the 800's. There are different reasons why companies offer different size of speakers, one often overlooked reason is the size/shape of your listening environment. I sure hope you get your situation figured out!

OP…”do the woofers on your 800 move noticeably under load? Mine barely move while my subs are going nuts. I’m not expecting the same level of excursion on the 800, but more than nothing. ”

I have been scratching my head at your problem. B&W tend to be bass heavy. When I read the above, it makes me think you are not going for accurate sound reproduction… or even close. I’m not being critical, different people want different things. I used to have dual B&W 800 series subs with my system, in a large room. They had to be turned down below 10% or they would screw up the imaging and sonics. I could never see them moving. Having subs going crazy might be true in a home theater playing U-571 with the depth charges going off but not in a two channel audio system playing music. 

It sounds like this version of speakers may simply be more accurate and thusly less bassy. they are up a tier from your old speakers. It sounds like the version of music you want may require equalization to give you the accentuated bass you are looking for.

seb-audio,

800D2s do not lack bass, I"ve had mine well over a decade, never felt I had the need to add a sub either. I think the disappointment you're experiencing has to do with the volume and distance you enjoy your music. 

I graduated from N803s to 800D2s with a similar experience as you , let me start by saying my N803s play nicely at modest volume levels with my trusty MC352 amp from a 6-7ft listening distance. In contrast 800D2s deliver deep n tonal base, much different than N803, about 5-7 feet further back than my usual  listening distance. They sound flat at modest listening levels, they're at their best in a fairly large rooms at moderate or greater sound levels. 

Your N802 fall somewhere in between my N803s and D2s , try pulling back your listening area and play them louder, they will impress you.

get rid of them get the monitor audio platinum 200s or 300s there's so much better than B&W.

I definitely feel your pain as I have been craving more bass ever since getting into this hobby in the 90s.  I have had similar experiences with a pair of Paradigm signature 100 v 3s (these are also power hungry speakers which require a lot of power)

I thought I 'd share an experience with interconnects that might present some options. I have found over the years the signal strength of your sources, the pre amp and interconnects play a huge role.  - I recently upgraded/ changed my cable from my home theatre smart connect box - going from a digital optical out though a dac to a direct analog heimdall 2 3.5 mm to rca into my pre amp- It woke my speakers right up- the difference was huge.   Combination of higher quality interconnect, a better connection through the analog output resulted in great bass response I did not think was possible.

Can you provide room dimensions, distance from speaker to wall, speaker to speaker and speaker to listening chair?  Use center of tweeter to measure distance. 

First of all I’d like to say thanks to all of you for chiming in and trying to help, I really appreciate every response.

@audphile1 the same is generally said about the 802Ds I had before, and they sounded the same powered by my Denon 4520 as they did powered by the Classé.

I mostly listen around 75db and I sit in the near field, so I can’t imagine they’re drawing much more than 10W from the amp most of the time. The 802s had way more bass even when playing at very low levels so I really doubt it’s the amp. I’d surely love to test beefy mono amps, but I don’t have space in my room to add separates at the moment.

if I walk up to the room boundaries the 800 have plenty of bass, so it’s likely my MLP is inside a null - what I still don’t understand is how the 802s sounded so different in exactly the same speaker location given how similar their cabinets and overall geometry are. 

The 800 have bigger cabinets, bigger woofers, they go down to 3ohm (802 dip into 3.52ohm). All the symptoms you’re describing mean your 200w per channel Classe amp does not have the juice to drive these speakers properly. I had N803 way back when and they were very power/current hungry.
Your problem can only be solved by going up to the amplifier that can control these speakers. Something that’s heavily biased to Class A, i.e. Pass Labs X350.8 should do the trick. 350w into 8ohm and 700w into 4ohm with no issues handling 2ohm loads. You’ll wake these speakers up.

@seb_audio 

I'm curious if you've had a chance to look at the Power requirements for the speakers.  I think the 800s relatively underpowered versus the 802.

Crossover for the 802d3 that I have Robs a lot of power when the signal passes through it so I hear and it sounds that way because you can hear that there's a lot of restriction going on with the signal. It is not as open as I'd like it to be.  A lot more power are the 800s.  

Since you have subs why not just add a highpass or active crossover? I have had a number of large speakers and always highpass 60hz. Almost all speakers that are not large super speakers or powered start rolling off at 60hz and hand off to the port. Every system I have owned sounded better highpassed at 60hz. 

My take is the room. Could be amp if it does not provide enough current for a demanding speaker. Cables - no. They may change sound a bit, but they can't fix lack of response. I'd check impedance curve - how easy are speakers to drive? Do they dip really low, like 2 Ohms somewhere? Sensivity? 

@seb_audio anyway you can borrow or trial an amp known to handle hard to drive loads?  Watts are only part of the equation.  Highly likely your speakers need an amp more capable of driving them.  Amps that have a large power reserve, that are stable across a wide impedance curve.  Class A typically has high power reserves, amps that double in watts from 8 to 4 ohms, if they reference being able to go down to 2 ohms, good sign.  Hegel, Coda, Parasound, Music Fidelity, McIntosh, Krell, Odyssey and Emotive.  If you get really pricey, Gryphon, T & A, D’Agostino. Class D designs can also offer the grunt needed.  If you could try one of these with your speakers, you would be able to compare.  Watts alone don’t tell you if an Amp is designed to handle a wide impedance curve and is stable as you dip below 8 ohms, that’s what your speakers need along with a power reserve that can drive your speakers consistently through the peaks and valleys. Your speakers are known to like amps that have a lot of grunt, amperage, power reserve.  It’s needed to really wake them up.  

Maybe, just maybe one of the speakers is wired inverted.

Try swapping + and - on one speaker only and see if it changes bass.

Then do the same on the other speaker only.

@seb_audio 

”do the woofers on your 800 move noticeably under load? Mine barely move while my subs are going nuts.”

No, not really.  And yes my 16ultras are visibly moving. But keep in mind SVS specializes in subs and has big movement (and air) because it designs purpose built woofer drivers.  You can’t have big movement like that and multitask into the lower midrange like the 800s do.  It’s completely normal.

Do get a flashlight and look for foam (or a sock) or whatever stuck in your speakers.  Sometimes, with age and poor handling it could have even fallen down from where it is mounted.  This would prevent proper movement of the 800 drivers.

My money on the issue is a weird null for no logical reason (it’s called acoustic “theory” for a reason) or, slightly more likely, you’re a bass addict.

It’s a fatal disease.  Chronic.  The only cure is MORE POWER.

Thank you, @davetheoilguy !! Funny that you have yours paired with SVS subs as well. I liked the sound of them better than the B&W sub i had before. 
 

I have a measurement mic and will measure with REW this week. Will post graphs here. 
 

do the woofers on your 800 move noticeably under load? Mine barely move while my subs are going nuts. I’m not expecting the same level of excursion on the 800, but more than nothing. 
 

Since the speakers are in the same spot as the 802 I guess it’s pretty close to an A/B test and I still doubt I’d all of a sudden be sitting in a null. Subs are in the same spot too. I am crossing them over higher and dialed them up by a few db and I’m still not happy with the level of bass I have compared to what the 802s produced. 

@seb_audio 

Those speakers do produce a lot of bass when working correctly.  And you’ve run all the usual checks.

They are sensitive to room placement.  Try moving closer/farher from the wall.  And I mean move them 10 feet from the wall to a stupid position to see if you have a null.  
 
if you have them, put a thick “bass trap” behind the speakers just sitting on the floor about two inches from the wall to see if your getting a null.  If not handy, use two very thick couch cushions for a test.  (I have to use a bass trap behind my subwoofers/main speakers due to a weird room configuration.)

They’re used so see if something is jammed or fell into the port (eg foam plug was out in and someone pushed it in)

 Try toe while moving around.  I wouldn’t think this is it, but you’re moving them around, so why not.

The real test is to buy a room microphone and go run REW test from your listening room.  I did this extensively before treating my room.  The mic is cheap and the software is free.  

Or maybe you’re a bass addict.  I have 800D3s and need two big SVS16 ultras to give me the bass I like.  I ran REW and it showed all was good but I wanted to feel bass in my chest.

@seb_audio 

I looked at the power specks for both of your speakers.

The high end of the range for the 800s is 1000 W and for the 802 first generation it's 500.

To me that suggest your under powering the 800s relative to the 802s significantly based upon the specificatio…. The 800s really need a lot more power.  You're using the 4 ohm connection and who knows what that could be doing. Using 400w but I'm not sure how the speakers interpreting that.  Have you tried connecting to the 8 Port on the back of the speakers?

Can you connect only the bass drivers to your amplifiers and see how things are? It's a shame you can't compare them to the 802s.

I am bi amping the 802 d3’s I have, and each speaker has 600 W mono McIntosh amplifiers to support the bass drivers.  But 400 should be fine.

Personally while the 802 bass power is fine I'm concerned about the quality of the bass that I'm hearing.  But I'm very picky.  

I'm curious do you have them connected to a Home theater processor and maybe you can play around with the DSP curves to see what happens. DSP for your stereo may be an idea if you don't do that. That may help boost the bass. I always thought the 800 were a very room filling experience.  They were very big and the drivers are very big too.  I do know the Bowers crossovers tend to steal a lot of strength from the signal. They seem to be constraining the signal I wish they freed things up better than they do.

Thanks @ap1, there isn’t. I don’t think B&W ever made foam plugs for these as they would need to be the size of a sofa cushion ☺️ the port is massive. 
 

An advantage of down firing to the plinth is that the distance is always constant and they should be a little less sensitive to room placement. Still not sure why my 802s had so much more bass. 

One more obvious check - is there a foam plug in bass reflex port under the speaker? It needs to be removed if you are not using subwoofers.

@curiousjim thank you for the suggestion, I am bi-wiring so can rule that out as an issue. 

Thank you, @joey_v. 
 

these were supposed to be my endgame speakers, so I’m hoping it’s the room and that they’ll sound different when I have a dedicated listening space. 
 

to the folks who suggested REW - I had everything dialed in perfectly with my 802s but I don’t have a measurement file to compare to with the 802s playing alone. I do still have the summed response of everything playing together. 
 

I’ll measure the 800 next week while my family is out of town and I’ll have time. 

Thanks for the response

I have extensively compared 800d2 and 802d2

they sound very similar in the bass except the 800d2 has more of it.  I don’t thinknthere was any portion of the response where the 802d2 was preferred.  I owned 802d2, 802d3, 800d3, and the 802d4 now.

@seb_audio 

Are you using the jumper plates on the speaker terminals? Give them a check.  I removed mine and replaced them with some cable jumpers and it made an immediate difference.

All the best.

Have experience with both 802 and 800 D Series with same Mac amps and do not consider the bass to be deficient on the 800's in the same room setup.

A stretch but, if you bought used consider if previous owner had modified crossovers?

I expect not the case but are you sure the jumpers are on the bi-amp terminals?

From your msg I believe you stated limited bass w/o subs.  If not, you addressed the speaker phase but make sure the subs are in phase as well.  

Good luck...

Get a miniDSP umik-1 and download free REW software and measure!

Having the known quantity should lead you to the answer. I must also point out that I completely disagree with your observation about sufficiently powered amps all sounding the same. I've read that before too, but it just doesn't line up with my experience with different power amps. In addition to soundstage, tonal presentation, presence of bass/treble/mid there is also a technical performance synergy that may favor one over another with specific speakers. 

Thanks everybody for reading this post. 
 

@joey_v yes, they are producing bass. Just not very much of it compared to the 802s. 

It’s possible I’m sitting in a null, but I’ve had my set up this way for six years and the 802s were located in the exact same position so how would I all of a sudden be sitting in a null?

based on all the reviews, I’ve read the 802s have a slight peak in the mid bass around 100 Hz but the difference I’m hearing feels greater than that. 
 

That’s why I was hoping I could hear from an owner who has experienced both the 802s and 800 in the same room to see if they had the same experience.

thanks all

@invalid 

yes.  Some of us are only so lucky.

There’s absolutely no reason quadruple 10” drivers produce no bass.  You could use a receiver and still have bass output.  You’re in a bass null.

walk to some other part of the room, see if you have bass 

Have you tried a test cd with signal sweeps?  That would help understand what frequencies are missing and you can do some calculations with your room dimensions to see if room interactions could be the cause. 

@joey_v he's not using a Boulder amp.

It’s obvious you’re in a null

Stereophile's measurements show that the 802Ds have a few more DBs in the bass range vs the 800D2s. 

Try running the speakers with only the bass terminals connected to the amp, no jumpers or direct connection to the mid/tweeter. Play music or test signals to evaluate whether the bass drivers have the same output. Try different speaker positions. Sometimes only a few fractions of an inch make a big difference.

Also might inspect the bass port to see if a prior owner stuffed a sock in there.

In addition to polarity, worth checking the drivers are actually working.  The inductor wires are especially susceptible to having nearly invisible cracks happen at the circuit board.  

What cables are you using?

I think @testpilot makes a great suggestion to check to ensure the speakers are internally wired correctly.

It’s most likely a room interaction issue, but I also think you should explore your amplifier choice as those speakers are hard to drive. Do you have an option of borrowing a different one? 

By way of example: I personally know of someone who had a large Bryston (lots of watts) stereo amp in front of his also hard to drive T+A speakers which were completely lacking bass despite being well regarded full range floor standers. He replaced the Bryston with a T+A integrated amp (reference HV series - lots of current) and the bass difference was astonishing. It all fleshed out and reached down low such that he could hardly believe the difference. So, worth exploring before you give up. They’re great speakers.

@mgrif104 thanks for your reply. Yes, I’ve run them individually and confirmed they are in phase. The drivers all work. Speakers are cosmetically and mechanically in like new condition. 
 

they’re in the same spot as the 802s and since the cabinet geometry and location of the bass port are so similar I’m surprised the difference is so big. They just sound anemic in the main listening position without subs. 
 

while I partially made up for it by crossing my subs higher and dialing them up, they only fill in below 80 and I’m also noticing some lack of authority in the lower octaves of voices and instruments above 80hz that I cannot compensate for with subs. 
 

I think the amp is fine, it’s faired very well in reviews. They produce bass and are cleaner than the 802s, but sound pressure wise it feels like half of the bass output the 802s produced. Unfortunately I had to sell them before the 800s arrived, so I could not A/B test. 

Check to make sure that each speaker is wired with the same polarity.  On rare occasions, speaker leave the factory with mismatched polarity.  In addition to lack of bass, the centre image will be ill defined.  To test, use a 9v battery and touch the positive and negative speaker cables to the corresponding battery terminal.  The woofer cone should move forward.  Check each speaker. 

Curious.

I remember auditioning these very speakers in an audio store and was astonished at the challenges in bass they had in the audition. The speakers were interacting with the room to cause serious phase cancellations in the bass region. The owner of the store acknowledged the challenges in set up he was having. They are capable of great bass - but there are challenges.

A couple of thoughts:

Are you sure both speakers are in good working order as I assume you purchased them second hand. Try listening to 1 speaker at a time - do they sound the same (and bass deficient) on a mono recording? If they don’t sound deficient, it’s a phase cancellation and room interaction. If they do, see my next point.

I’m not familiar with the particular Classe amp - are they up to the task?  Even at low power, current matters a lot. If I recall correctly, these particular B&W models had some challenging impedance curves which make them hard to drive. It’s not watts, but current.

Sorry if this seems a dumb question - did you check the polarity of your speaker cables to make sure they’re correct? That would certainly cause a cancellation. 

Good luck.

Please give more information about your room dimensions and setup.