I suspect some of the most frustrated audiophiles that can't get off the merry go round out there are those that are bass focused and have unrealistic expectations of their recordings to all sound exactly the way they would like. |
"An issue I still can't get past is that from album to album, artist to artist, the volume of bass will vary hugely. "
That's inherent largely in recordings.
Each recording usually requires unique processing in order to get all to sound a certain way. There is no single or easy solution. Pursuit of this will likely be time consuming at a minimum and fruitless at worst. Recordings are what they are, not what people might want them to be.
I shoot to avoid too much, fat or inarticulate bass with any recordings, even the most bass heavy ones. THen the rest will fall in line as best possible and usually quite well from there bass-wise. A sub can help but can also be quite hard sometimes to blend in by ear. Patience and good ears are needed! |
Simon_templar_32,
Mind describing your 7.4 HT system?
Thanks. |
Frankly, I don't have the time, patience, money or know-how to EQ my sub/system. Right now I'm just trying to get the Velodyne setup so that I'm happy with it using it's built-in controls. An issue I still can't get past is that from album to album, artist to artist, the volume of bass will vary hugely.
I'll put on Deerhoof, and the bass will be waaaay too overwhelming and overpower everything. Then I'll throw on the Walkmen and it's nice and tight. I feel like I shouldn't have to be tweaking controls on the sub every time the song changes! |
Finsup: I have a 7.4 HT system with all 100-S3 drivers. I use Yamaha's YPAO (RX-V763 with external amps), and it works fine. I also have a 2.1 system with 2XO's; an older HTR-5990's YPAO (no amps) works OK there as well.
Rbf1138: In my 7.4 system I have four Epik Empires, with the Empires EQ'd using an SVS AS-EQ1, x-overed at 80Hz. My 2.1 system uses an older ACI Titan XL with no EQ on the sub, x-overed at 80Hz. I also have a 4.1 system with two Microwalsh Short omnis for the mains. The sub is a Paradigm Ultracube 10, EQ'd with an Anti-Mode 8033, x-overed at 100Hz. All the subs work fine with the Ohms. I also have used the inexpensive Behringer 1124 Feedback Destroyer as a sub EQ and gotten good integration with the Ohms.
|
Where is there an Ohm sub? I don't see it on John's site. |
I use an emotiva Ultra 10 sub with my MWT's. I run the MWT's full range (they have almost no energy below 40 Hz)
I have the sub at low pass at about 50 Hz, so there is a slight overlap with them and the sub.
I avoid corner placement as much as possible with subs. I also try not to run a sub above 80 Hz, as they tend to get directional at that point. My goal is to have the sub sonically disappear, and that you only notice it when it's off.
Why is your x-over set so high @ 100 Hz? |
Opinions vary on this one.
I set the sub's low pass (and I low cut the mains with an active x-over) just above the highest frequency hump or suckout that I want to EQ away. Basically my approach is to fix the room passively as much as I can, recognizing that below a certain frequency (which varies room to room), passive treatments tend to become ineffective and EQ is the only approach that works (for me, anyway, others may have had different experience here).
Note : EQ is much easier for reducing FR "humps" than it is for filling FR suckouts, so bear that in mind as you decide where to set the x-over point.
I've treated my room with lots of "passive" (including bass-buser type hemholtz devices) treatments, but IME these run out of steam somewhere between 70 ish and 120 ish hz, depending on the room. So I fix what I can passively, set the x-over just where the passive stuff starts to fail and let the EQ do the rest below that frequency.
I set slope, phase etc to get the smoothest response around the x-over point before applying EQ. There are two goals here - smooth overall bass response below the x-over frequency and smoothest response thru the crossover point. The latter helps insure an undetectable "hand-off" from main speaker to subwoofer and is absolutely critical for me. Since there are limited bands of EQ, you may have a judgement call in smoothing overall bass response versus super fine tuning the "hand-off". That is your call on the fly, made only (IME) via trial and error.
Many folks disagree with this approach and prefer a lower x-over point. That has never worked as well for me, but YMMV.
Marty |
Are the low-pass and phase settings room dependent? Is there a setting for those that would seem to make the most sense paired with the MWTs? I think right now I have the low-pass set to about 100. |
Rbf,
I've been out of the market for a bit, so I'm probably not your best resource for that question.
I own Rythmiks, which are terrific, but start at $700+. The very fine, entry level SVS sub is a bit cheaper, but IIRC still north of $500. I understand that Emotiva has one at $500 that looks pretty nice, but I've neither heard it nor seen test results. You might want to search threads here for advice from other folks who are closer to the current market.
Kbuzz,
The issue with Ohm subs (as of app. 4 years ago, when I was looking) was their size. The footprint was substantially bigger than most and I just didn't have the space to accommodate them, so I never auditioned them. I don't know the current models, so I'm not sure if that's still a consideration.
Marty |
Anyone on the ohm branded sub? |
Marty, is there a brand or model in the sub-$500 range you would have chosen instead? |
Rbf,
IMHO, once you're out of the real budget models, subwoofer set-up is usually more important than the specific choice of subwoofer model (unless you've defied the odds and chosen a truly crappy subwoofer!). Good news - you haven't.
To clarify my post, the Velo sub includes an EQ function. When used automatically, it simply adjusts (IIRC) 6 fixed bands of equal range to eliminate peaks and suckouts. This is a pretty simple approach and IME doesn't work very well.
However, manual EQ allows MUCH more effective adjustment. You can vary the width of each band, vary it's center point, and vary how "steep" the correction is. If you've got a big "hump" centered at, for example 90 hz (not uncommon), you can create a band centered at 90hz and apply correction in the opposite "shape" of the hump. When summed for playback, the combination of the original hump and the "mirror" correction that you've dialed in via manual EQ results in flat FR. Unfortunately, this is only possible via manual EQ and involves a fair bit of work on your part.
All the other stuff - slope, phase, etc. - can also make a huge difference. IME, trial and error, aided by video readout - is the best way to go with Velodyne. In the end, you'll get flat response from the sub and smooth, precisely matched level at the point your cross to your Ohms. If you haven't yet guessed, I'm a huge fan of this approach.
Unfortunately, REALLY GOOD subwoofer set-up is a giant PITA...but also makes a GIANT difference in the end result. The easy way is Audyssey, which includes a very sophisticated auto subwoofer set-up feature. Unfortunately, Audyssey is found mostly in multi channel home theater electronics - which I'm guessing you don't have handy. Shy of switching to Audyssey, you might want to wade thru the manual EQ instructions for your sub (either those in the instruction book or downloaded from the Velo web site).
IME, the process is cumbersome, but worthwhile.
Good luck,
Marty |
Thanks Marty, although I don't understand apart any of what you said, lol.
To clarify though: it's a matter of setup and tweaks, not having a terrible subwoofer, correct? I figured for $400 I had to be buying at least a solid subwoofer that could integrate well with the Ohms! |
Rbf,
The Velodyne auto EQ is a mess.
It only uses graphic (fixed band) EQ and doesn't incorporate the parametric (variable "Q") capabilities of the software. Get a video monitor and manually tweak all paramaters (x-over point, slope, phase, band center, Q, etc) until you see a pretty flat FR. Tweak by ear from there.
This may not be the best subwoofer out there, but set-up this way it is very good. In all likelihood, you just need to work it a bit.
Good Luck,
Marty
PS If this set-up process doesn't appeal to you, you might think about a preamp (or pre-pro or AVR) with Audyssey. Their auto set-up is IMHO just about flawless. |
The rumble is there, but the notes and the music aren't. I could move it to a corner, but it seems as though that is supposed to make it more bloomy and less tight! Maybe I need a smaller subwoofer? A more "musical" sub? |
One more note: I feel like the sub isn't quick enough to keep up with the speed and crispness of the Ohms. |
I'm having a bit of buyer's remorse after having had the Velodyne sub connected for a day or two now. I don't know if it's positioning, the non in-line connection, or something else but the bass to me seems both unnecessary sometimes compared to the Ohms bass output alone, and other times seems to overpower the sound. Right now I have the sub against the wall, to the right of the right speaker, which puts it about 3/4 of the way to the wall on the right which is about 10 feet from the subwoofer. I haven't yet moved the subwoofer to try other positions.
I used the auto-EQ, and have fiddled a bit with phase settings and the low-pass dial, although generally I shoot to tighten up the bloat and minimize how loud and bloomy it can sound. If anyone has any tips on how I should get this thing properly setup that'd be a big help. Right now I'm not feeling that my $450 was justified. |
If i recall my conversation with john, the sub is approximately 16 cube, goes for 250 in black or another $150 for optional matching ohm veneer
Its a little large for my needs but the matching veneer may make up for it. If its covered by the generous ohm return policy i may take a shot...
would like to know a little more detail re amp/driver/port(??) and general performance but given that there are some decent subs coming out of china these days (REL) it sounds interesting. |
I'm also curious about the Ohm sub. Anyone know anything about it? A picture, even? It'd be half the price I paid for the Velodyne, so maybe I'd consider swapping. |
Anyone seen or tried the sub that John @ Ohm offers? I do not believe it is an in house design, but seems pretty inexpensive at $250 in black and OHM will re-veneer to match existing walsh models |
It should be specified in the owner's manual. Sometimes, preamp outputs are fixed-level, like a tape-out output, so that the sugnal is at a constant setting. The variable level output will be affected by adjustments to the Nova's volume control. If you are not sure, connect the preamp output to the subwoofer, lower the subwoofer's volume to zero. Put on some music, then gradually increase the subwoofer's volume control. Once you can hear the subwoofer putting out a signal (audible bass), lower the Nova's volume slowly until it is at zero. If you still hear the subwoofer, but the main speakers are silent, you are connected to a fixed-level preamp output. If the subwoofer also goes silent, you have variable level. BTW, some preamps and amps allow you to select variable or fixed output via a switch or set up program. |
How do i make sure the "output is variable level?" And until I can afford a second pair of good quality speaker cables I'm going to have to go with the preamp out on the Nova as opposed to in-line anyway. I appreciate all the help, I'm slowly coming to understand how all of this works! |
You are correct about the "in-line" set up. Go ahead with your plans. I would do some critical listening before and after the sub is in the system. Don't pay much attention to the bass, which will of course be different. Listen for changes in the upper bass, mids and treble. Listen for detail, soundstage dimensionality, timbre, etc. If you feel these are worse with the sub in the system, consider using the line outputs from the Nova. Make sure the output is variable level, so volume changes to the speakers will match volume changes to the sub. Note that, from what I see in the image, there is no internal x-over in the Nova, so that the Ohms will still get a full-range signal. This will eliminate some of the advantages of a powered sub - less amp power is required for the main speakers, which usually improves performance. Of course, you can always look into outboard, higher quality crossovers in the future. |
I went ahead and ordered the Velodyne since it's on special for $400 right now. I think because I can't afford another pair of nice speaker wire to do the in-line method, I'll have to just stick to using the preamp output on my Nova directly into the subwoofer for now (if I understand correctly, that's how to most simply connect the Velodyne to the Nova). |
Bondmanp, that sub looks nice. Maybe I could even scrounge up some extra cash and get the 10' version...
As for the connections, here's the back of my Nova:
http://www.listenup.com/lu/graphics/00000001/PeachtreeAudio.Nova_Back.jpg
So I could either connect the sub directly from the Nova using the preamp output and then leave the speakers connected to the Nova like normal, or I can connect the speaker out of the Nova to the Velodyne, then the speakers to the sub (which is what "in-line" is?)? Is that how things work? Sorry, I'm totally new to all of this and don't totally grasp some of how it works together. |
Rbf1138: I use a pair of Vandersteen 2Wqs with my 2000s, but that's not in your budget. In your budget, I'd look into the Velodyne EQ Max 8. IMHO, having the ability to EQ the in-room response of a sub is very important, and in this price range, not many subs offer that capability. If your room is appropriately sized for the MWTs, the EQ Max 8 should be sufficient, especially for music (as opposed to home theater). As for the connection, I prefer the subs to be in-line with the main speakers, the only way the Vandys can be connected. However, it is often the case that the sub's built in high-pass filter for the speaker-level connections is inferior to the crossover in an AVR or preamp or integrated amp. If your Peachtree has an internal crossover with an RCA subwoofer output, it will probably be better than the crossover in most subwoofers. But try it both ways and see which sounds and blends better.
Finsup: Although my 2-channel signal chain does not use any room EQ, my surround signal chain does. I have a Pioneer AVR with MCACC, which works rather well, especially compared to the Audyssey built into my previous pre-pro. I have to admit that there is a "rightness" to the sound when I have even lo-res sources on, like Music Choice on FiOS. The jazz channel, which in my set up must come through the room EQ'd Pioneer AVR, sounds amazingly good for a compressed, reduced-resolution digital signal being converted to analog by a <$500 AVR. If I had more money, and was not such a die-hard analog fan, I might look into the higher end room EQ products. My main suggestion here is to insist on the ability to fine-tune the room EQ results after the device does its thing. My old pre-pro was all-or-nothing; if you didn't like the way the Audyssey EQ'd the room, your only choice was to turn the whole room EQ thing off. With the MCACC, I can fine tune it, correcting any setting I don't like, while keeping the rest. |
Just updated my system with a Pangea AC-9SE power cord hooked up to my McCormack DNA 250. I know that this is a somewhat controversial subject, but Steve McCormack himself recommends upgraded power cords, so I bought a 2 meter cord from Pangea (and got $50 off- now through the end of the month!). I immediately noticed that the ground loop hum became barely audible. As to the performance, it may just be my imagination, but the bass notes seem slightly clearer and "fuller", to the extent that I just can't imagine using a subwoofer with my 5000's. Does anyone else think that a high quality power cord makes a difference in sound? BTW, this thing is as thick as a garden hose! |
Actually, looks like the T-2 and T3 can both be had for $400. Is the T-2 better? |
Frazeur, I see new ones on ebay for $500. Would I be alright with just one (at least for the time being)? Does it just get connected to the line-out of my Nova? |
RBI, for what it is worth, I use a pair of REL T-3 subs with my MWT'S when they are in the system. These can be found fairly cheaply on occasion here on the Gon, also a couple of close out companies have had them listed, but I bet most will be out of stock by now. I got mine on close out. These mate really well to the Ohm's as well as my MMG's. Good little subs, does depend on your room size too here.
Richinny and Marty, take a look at the Ikonoklast tweeters, very similar to the old Walsh tweeter made for the Infinity speaker many years ago, these can be bought and added on to other speakers. It has given me some of those thoughts about trying different combos. Sorry I don't have a link right off, but I think you can find them. Interesting huh? Enjoy the music! Tim |
Ok I'm just gonna straight up ask what subwoofer under $500 I should get to pair with my Microtalls. Can someone also describe where in the chain of connections the subwoofer goes in my setup with the Peachtree Nova? Does the subwoofer get cOnmected directly to the Nova? To the speakers? |
Thanks Marty for the response. It surprised me. I thought the two would be more similar than you indicate with maybe some added detail from the Gallo's.
I really like my Ohm 100's and have had them for about 4 years now. I like the wide dispersion and the less forward presentation of the OHM's from other speakers I have owned. I also like the way they look.
I thought the Gallo's might be a step up but sounds from your experience they would be a step in a different direction, and maybe not the direction I want to go. I'll have to search out a set of Gallo's and have a listen myself. I would just ask which speaker presents more realistic vocals in you opinion. The Ohms do pretty well in this regard and I was not interested in giving any of that up.
I agree with your thoughts on a hybrid. The gallo tweeter gets good reviews and could be a winner in a omni hybrid design.
rich |
Rich,
I've never heard the Classico, but I have owned Micros and A'Divas and listened to the Gallo Ref extensively. I also own Ohm 100s.
The little guys from Gallo are a different animal entirely, but there is some common ground shared by the Ohms and the wide dispersion Gallo Ref series. That said, the Ohm still sounds quite different than the Gallo Ref - both in the spacial presentation and in tonality. The Gallo is a punchier, more forward design, while the Ohm strikes me (as always, YMMV) as more neutral octave to octave, with a less prominent upper bass range and more "polite" overall presentation.
The thought that struck me was: I'd love to hear an Ohm/Dec style omni "hybrid" that employs that Gallo tweeter instead of the ribbon or dome that you see now. I don't know that it would sound "better", especially since the manufacturers claim to prefer the directional qualities of the tweeter they currently use (surprise!), but the idea of more uniform full range omni dispersion (ala MBL) via such a hybrid strikes me as intriguing.
Marty |
Lacking the time today to go back through the thread, can you guys tell me what sub-$500 subwoofer pairs well with the Ohms? |
Has anyone on this forum compared ohm speakers to Gallo's? I have Ohm super 2's and was wondering how they compared to Gallo Classico Line. |
Agree, it IS a balancing act. |
The room reflections are a balancing act... I remember when I was renovating my place and had to move a bunch of furniture into my listening room - it actually made the room too dead. I thought it would improve the sound,.. At one point, I had moved my Ohms into my bedroom, which was lively sounding, and didn't like the sound... Something in between ended up working the best... |
Map, unfortunately, this is why I more or less gave up on my A/V system, there ended up being too many compromises in a living room that has to be used as a living room. I sure do miss having a more dedicated space for the gear, but I have been able to better optimize the space for good 2-channel, even with my 55" screen in the mix.
Making sure the Ohm's are more in front of the plane of the screen and spread apart has helped tremendously with this, a small compromise, but it works. Thing is, this living room probably "sounds" better or is more sonically appealing than my original dedicated hi-fi rig room of the past. Tim |
Large flat panel TVs between speakers probably never helps but is not necessarily a major issue either I find, though I think it certainly can be depending on placement relative to tv, rear walls, and any other large obstructions that will tend to reflect sound, like the tall cabinets in my 2 channel a/v system. They serve a purpose so they stay but if this were my main system tuned to the max, they would have to go and the flat screen would probably have to go on the wall rather than on the table in between and behind the speakers. |
Bond, I agree with you, I tend to like a bit of "liveliness" versus more damped with my Ohm's. But like most things, it is all up to the listener's ears.
One thing you might try just for a quick and easy sanity check with regards to your TV screen in between your Ohm's, grab a light blanket or something similar and toss it over the screen, this can give you a quick feel as to how things might be affecting your staging/sound quality.
Rbf-Like most have commented on here, experimentation is the key to setup success. Hang in there and have patience, you will get there! Tim |
I mean using something like Audyssey, ARC, or MAAC, etc. |
Has anyone tried room EQ with omnis? If so, what were the results? |
FWIW, I recently removed some foam sound panels from behind my Ohms (they were at ear level). With carpeting and almost no windows in my cellar listening area, I think I might have overdone it with the sound absorbtion materials. If you look through this thread, you'll see where a bit of reflectivity isn't always a bad thing for omnis like the Ohms. I keep thinking that I ought to cover up my Plasma TV that sits behind and between my Ohms, but then again, they sound good right now, and I am afraid to guild the lilly. I wouldn't make any acoustic changes I couldn't remove easily. The foam panels were attached to the drywall with T-pins, and were easily removed. Just my $0.02. |
Theres a fairly large rug a few feet in front of the speakers that takes up a good portion of the room. We're gonna get around to curtains soon :) Those should help, but truthfully the room isn't too lively. |
Agree with Z that very lively room is a challenge with most any speakers, omni/OHMs included. If you hear a reverb effect/echo when speaking or clapping in general, that is usually something worth addressing with the room acoustics.
Rug under and/or in front of speakers, wall furnishings or treatments at primary rear wall reflection points for your main listening position, windows treatments, other wall adornments to break up flat surfaces, furniture and other decorative items, plants, can all help. Keep this in mind as the room decor evolves over time. Be creative and experiment along the way. |
Rbf1138 - I checked out your photo - from my experience, Ohms work best in slightly damped rooms. They throw a big image, and if the room is too live, things get muddled. Do you have rugs on the floor, etc? From what I can see in the photo it looks like wood floors and minimal window treatments. |
Rbf-It would appear that with your toe-out that you have you are experiencing more of a direct radiated sound from the tweeters, which may be just fine if you like it that way. It can all depend on how far your listening position is and just how much of the treble energy you want.
How is the bass doing as far as you can tell? While the MWT does have the built-in plinth and bass port on the bottom, you probably would get a bit more bass moving them back towards the wall some.
It looks like you are a bit crowded there with your two racks, TV and gear. Sometimes you have to make do with the space you have, but if you could maybe move your gear rack over to the left, and spread the Ohm's out a bit more and back, you might do a bit better.
I find my Ohm's do very well with a good spread in between the speakers, but not so much you lose focus or get the hole-in-the-middle effect. Great thing about the MWT's is they are so easy to move around, only you will know what sounds best to your ears. Experiment, that is the best way to find the sweetspot, and with the Ohm's, the sweetspot is generally pretty wide.
Enjoy! Tim |
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/5060/photoevr.jpg
How's that arrangement look? Should they be less toed? Closer to the wall? Closer together? I still love em, but I'm not sure I've heard their full potential with the perfect positioning yet... |
Rbf,
Thanks for your kind words! |
