stfoth---exactly correct. How could McCartney have been poor?! He’s by far the richest of The Beatles. But he knew he didn’t have to pay his band well---he could get anyone to play for him, no matter how low the pay, just for the exposure to a mass audience that would result from doing so, to increase one’s visibility, to make a name for oneself. Denny Seiwell came from the L.A. studios (as did his current drummer, the great Abe Laboriel, Jr.) and Jazz clubs, to which he returned after leaving Paul’s employ.
And you too are right, schubert. I should have qualified musicians with the adjectives Rock, Blues, and Country. Jazz and Classical guys are a whole ’nother matter!
Like many other manufacturers, Pass Labs has entry level and Higher priced equipment. I own the xa30.8 amp and xp10 preamp by Pass. Now they are not cheap by any means but they are not in the lead of the op's note. as others have stated, Nelson's First Watt can be had for even less cash. IMO, the XA-30.8 far exceeded my expectations and will last me the rest of my life. Also, Nelson spend a fair amount of time answering my questions and helping me match an amp for my other equipment. I can not say that of too many "creators" in this business. .
I've seen many classical musicians who have good systems . In Germany its the norm . Also have seen jazz musicians who did as well, but only known a few .
Amen, Bill. Musicians eat cheap so they can buy expensive vintage instruments. It’s unfortunate, but a lot of them listen to music on computers these days, and I don’t mean hirez digital streaming. It is because music is SO important to us that we spend what we do on the equipment to reproduce it well in our homes. How good a hi-fi a guy had was at one time a good indicator of how much music meant to him.
Why then do musicians almost universally have terrible hi-fis? 1- They’re poor. In the early 70’s Paul McCartney was paying his drummer in Wings Denny Seiwell $150 a week. 2- Musicians are thinking more about their own music than that of their contemporaries, not listening to recorded music nearly as much as you would think. THAT was done when they were younger, learning how to play. 3- Musician’s don’t expect reproduced sound to even remotely approach live sound. And since few of them have ever heard a really good system (since few of them or their peers have one), they don’t know how much better recorded music can sound through good gear.
I’m going to skirt the political aspects of this and focus for a minute on the merits. Every time there is a post about some new uber-price for a piece of gear- whether it is cable, hardware or whatever- i think you get the predictable assortment of reactions, from "crazy" to "not so crazy if you have the means." In my experience, it’s not only all relative, but a matter of priorities. I have a friend who is truly wealthy. He buys vintage Ferrari racing cars. But, if he flies, he goes coach; he wears Gap pants, and I doubt you catch him spending $400 on a shirt. Could he afford it? Sure. He doesn’t see the value in it. All of us, at some point in life, should have the experience of enjoying the "best" of something, if only to understand that it often isn’t always that much better. I don’t begrudge anybody the right to spend as they see fit. It doesn’t impact me (I don’t think this pricing affects the more every day equipment). If you find value you what you are seeking out, who’s to argue? Enjoy what you can while you can.
Demo as much as you can. Have your crooked, worthless dealer work hard for your hopeful business, have him loan you all his equipment for extended periods. Buy used on this and other sites. Then complain about lack of "brick and mortar" shops. The 70s and 80s were great times for hardware and software. I have more than enough of both. Might need to start downsizing 5-10 years out. Trying to keep a notebook for my wife so she some good $ for the equipment and records.
I`m not a rich at all.......:=)) The way to true S.O.T.A audio lays not only in money.
My tip is:
Demo as much as you can, then choose your brands/house sound, then try pick a top of the line classic pieces of these (newer=usually lesser quality/sound for same MSRP) and buy used from some credible seller here or in eBay.
P.S. The wire/cable thing is crazily over-hyped. Leave these for last! If everything else is already done and you like to buy a better cables then first play attention to the quality of connectors, conductor materials, AWG, etc., not for a brand name or fancy look. Some research and simple DIY may save you a grands here, if constructing a very top end cables.
I have listened to First-Watt J2 and SIT-2 in comparison on my system with fairly-efficient speakers (Living-Voice OBX-RW 6-ohms 93-db) and both are very good sounding amps. The SIT-2 IMHO is the best sounding solid-state amp I've ever heard on my system. The J2 is very good, but the SIT-2 is more articulate, and the music is more realistic. As "you're there" with female vocals ! If you have efficient speakers (I'd say a true 93-db and up) and want some of the best sound, I'd go with SIT-2, with the J2 right behind it. I have two SIT-2's bi-amping my Living-Voice OBX-RW's and the sound is terrific. Nelson Pass has done a terrific job with his First-Watt products and is constantly in design/testing mode improving on this line constantly. If you want to buy, check out Reno Hi-Fi. They're where I bought my First-Watt amps and great to work with. Also, 6-Moons has done some articles on both of these and other First-Watt amps...
I personally could never afford any expensive audio product, but I sure am glad there are people out there that can. It wasn't that long ago, that I could not afford a $10,000+ 42 inch plasma TV. They were for rich people. I remember hearing an Audio Research Classic 60, Bryston, Levenson, and Mac but it was way more than I could afford. Now I can afford a 65 inch, TV because there were enough rich people buying them, that the technology got better and the price got lower. As for audio equipment, I can easily afford the Classic 60 but unlike TV's the price of really good audio gear has gone thru the roof and yes, so has the sound quality. Thankfully over time, the price will trickle down on good used audio gear. Hopefully I will be able to afford some better sounding equipment. I think I can understand the $65,000 amp but I still have trouble with $5,000+ for 3 feet of speaker wire, power cord or innerconnects.
Pass was my first real high-end amp that I imported from US. Despite it was used with no warranty, Nelson Pass himself answered my questions and assisted me with everything via email. I´ve had many amps (some very noble brands and expensive) but in my experience you can`t find a power amp much better than Pass, no matter the price. Nelson Pass is my all time favorite and he deserves our highest respect!
I think meters should be required on all power amps as an esthetic thing, and to show that solid state amps aren't dead (I prefer tube amps as they glow…they at least "look" alive). Also, in spite of how THEIR amps measure, over the years I've heard Pass gear in many systems that sounded outstandingly musical, and the First Watt stuff Nelson has come up with more recently is brilliant.
I would imagine that the price of some of the Pass Labs amps might be more affordable if they did away with those meters. I sometimes wonder if Pass Labs gets a "pass" when it comes to how often there gear measures up short of their own specs when tested by Stereophile. I would have thought that at the asking prices that meeting specs would be the least that sould be expected.
Jim I agree it's up to us the consumer to determine individual comfort/budget levels. Too expensive for one is a screaming bargain for another. Know thy self.
I have never climbed a golden stair case nor have I ever, or will I ever audition a $80,000 dollar amp or $100,000 set of speakers. I can say though, that I have (after many hours of listening and comparing and within the limits of my budget) a system that sounds very nice in my environment playing the kinds of music I enjoy. It's a pleasure to know there are still a few very good US, Canadian and European companies that still produce some very fine, equipment at a reasonable cost and maintain a high level of customer service for us common folk. Jim
In terms of results, sometimes there is and sometimes there isn’t. In any case , in a mass society the marketers are far more important then the market .
+ 1 Teo. The behavior and buying patterns of many in High End audio support/confirm your observation. It seems in some circles if an audio product is very affordable yet said to sound excellent it will be viewed warily by some merely because it isn’t expensive (enough).,Having said that I still believe that what anyone wants to spend on an item is their own business and the market will determine success or failure. There's a reason for price stratification.
Does Nelson pass have anything to do with pass labs now? I didn’t think so. I consider him One of the good guys who gives back to the DIY community, not one of these con artists who is trying to make millions on fancy casework
If one tries to make a really good amp in a cheap chassis, the people who can afford it 10x over, never buy it.
If one makes a mediocre amplifier in an expensive chassis, people buy it.
The scenario you are asking for is the way to reach the lowest level of sales, with the lowest level of return, the lowest level of dealer support, and the lowest percentage of customers in the market.
Sad but true. Not a 100% true all the time, but if one wants to start a company and make good enough coin to stay in the game... what you propose is a good way to die off real real quick. One can only pull this stunt off, when they already have a reputation. But, if having such a reputation, one way to burn your dealership model down to the ground, is to introduce a product that is fabulous sounding in a cheap chassis, with a commensurate lower price. The customers are buying into exclusivity, and low priced items from the same company...simply will not do.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d prefer things go the way you seem to desire things to go.
But as a marketing model, it generally goes bust pretty quick.
Isn't that just a tad insane? People are strange....
Reading into your perspective that people in the South and those in many other parts of the country are "racist" whether through personal experience or being "carefully taught" Schubert I would only say that I personally believe things go in cycles, American’s "one brief shining moment" of the Camelot era is coming to a close or maybe has a while back. To gain a good political base in these times and perhaps all times, all one needs is to connect the target audience to a narrative to distract them from the real issues. It seems things go in cycles to me. Morality to most folks is based on their personal perspective or views. This is the reason why personal emphathy towards ALL regardless of differences can be the only foundation to change a specific way of thinking. For some it has to get personal first. I don’t believe we’ve arrived at that place YET but it’s coming for sure. Enough of the politics and back to the music!
"Any post having to do with politcs or relgion should be removed (including mine) ASAP."
Shall we also remove any post having to do with spelling? 😀
Well, for one thing history and in particular discussion of war is not like discussing politics and religion. It’s history. I think it’s worth discussing since there is quite a bit of confusion, two use a word, about how many causalties of war there actually are. The initial post that assumed most wars had only 25,000 to 50,000 deaths is quite misinformed. Even the current civil war in Syria has killed at least 250,000, if not many more. The American Civil war resulted in deaths of 2% of the entire population or 600,000. In fact there were NO wars EVER in history where the casualties were as low as 25,000 to 50,000. Vietnam 2 million, Afghanistan 2 million. World War I was 20,000,000. Napoleanic wars 5 million. Sino Japanese War during WWII 23,000,000.
here is the wiki page for deaths according to war,
All the Wars, All the evil people, All the Blood and Treasure.
"Don't Mean Nothing"
We are back in the World. We're at 7.3 Billion people and climbing. Give it a break, Have a glass of wine, a longneck, a big fatty whatever. Put on some great music and relax. Tim has it right; This is an Audio Forum.
The 200,000 civilians (many of whom were women and children) that were slaughtered by the Japanese in the Rape of Nan King in 1937 were not in the army either. If the USA didn't drop the bomb and had to invade Japan a whole lot more than 40,000 children would have died. The estimate was close to a million US and 7 to 8 million Japanese casualties. Many of them would have been innocent women and children. At the end of WWII the Soviets had the biggest and most powerful army in the world. There was nothing stopping them from driving the Americans and the Brits out of Western Europe. It could have been another Dunkirk only on a much bigger scale and with much worse results. The only reason that Stalin didn't go any farther was because he knew we had the bomb and that we would use it on every major city in the USSR. While the bomb took about 200,000 lives it saved potentially millions. Both the Germans and the Japanese were both working on the bomb. If either one of them would gotten there first they would have used it.
THE reason most post are named after Confederate Generals is because West Point Generals named the posts and made the point that being a West Pointer tops everything including being a traitor to your country. Civil war is still in process .
I did not say he gets a pass, I said "from a theological view " .
A well known prophet said "Love thy Enemy " . He didn’t say it to help your enemy , but to tell you that in the long run, aka infinity, what your enemy does is on him, what you do is on you . Same reasoning behind another well known saying of his, "turn the other cheek " . Most of the 30-40 thousand kids that died in Hiroshima never were in the Army . Not to mention every honest historian knows A-bomb was dropped to show Russia we had one after they defeated Hitler and started to invade Japan . Japan had peace feelers out at the time .
Khmer Rouge - Wikipedia Wikipedia › wiki › Khmer_Rouge Jump to Number of deaths - In 2014, two Khmer Rouge leaders, Nuon Chea and Kheiu Samphan, were jailed for life by a UN-backed court, which found them guilty of crimes against humanity and responsible for the deaths of up to 2 million Cambodians (Khmer), nearly a quarter of the country’s then population, during the "Killing Fields" era between 1975 and 1979.
Actually, the South has won the battle of history. "The Birth Of the Nation" and "Gone With the Wind" sealed the deal. True, it's not popularly called the War of Northern Aggression, but for generations the cause of the war -- the continuation and geographic expansion of slavery -- was obscured by arguments about states rights. Just this past week our President made statements minimizing the importance of slavery in the conflict. To this day there are more U.S. military bases named after confederate leaders than Northern generals.
Genghis Khan is generally considered the worst mass killer in history, but Caesar's Gaul campaigns probably put him over the 1 million killed milestone. I don't know for a fact, but as a percentage of the population that may actually put him "ahead" of the big league 20th century tyrants.
How come Emperor Hirohito gets a pass. Military deaths, war crimes and starvation in the Pacific/SE Asia war area approach 10 million and that doesn't include their actions in China.
@onhwy61 , that is because "History" is written by the winners.
Had the British won the Revolutionary war, the South won the Civil war, or Germany won WWII, our history books would be very different, yet the "good guys" would have still won.
Of course, the "good guys" always win in the history books, because the books are written by the winners. ;^)
Very interesting link between Nelson Pass and Joseph Stalin......
Since Stalin and Mao did in about 80 million, most would say Caesar isn’t quite in their league. Nor is it a matter of what economic path or ideology you adhere to . Stalin was a communist, Hitler the most anti-communist person in history. It’s the fact you are a Dictator , being able to play God brings out the devil in anyone .
From a theological view, killing one child brings you into the same league . Hiroshima .
Stalin, Mao and Hitler were all mass murderers, but there is an important distinction. Stalin and Mao both won and Hitler lost. Germany was utterly destroyed at the end of WW2 with 8 million dead and another 1.5 to 2 million to die in the immediate post war era. Upon his death Stalin left the Soviet Union as the second largest economic and military power in the world. Mao took a nation that had been totally shattered by decades of civil war and Japanese invasion/occupation and turned it into a productive, nuclear armed power. Essentially he laid the groundwork for China's explosive economic growth in the 80s and after. History "likes" winners. Was Julius Caesar any less of a mass murderer than these guys?
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