Point of diminishing return for a DAC

I Love it when reviewers tell you ,the dac for 2500  you just bought is not as good as a 500 dac....

I'm a firm believer in spending a good chunk of your budget on the digital front end.

Good clocks + reduced jitter + w/e other mumbo jumbo is happening = improvements in PRaT, low end tonality, reduced sibilance, better staging, holographic imaging, blacker backgrounds and just a sense of ease/liquidity. 

It's effectively replacing a CD player. 

Interesting article...

https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/production-expert-1/2019/2/27/apple-mac-mini-2018-tested-for-audio-...

Stowaway noise on the ride out.

So, a few have commented about the noise from the Mac.  Unsure what you mean...mechanical noise?  It’s dead silent from a mechanical perspective.  The fan very seldom evens spins up.  My mini is the latest iteration with an ssd.  There is nothing on the SSD except OS, Roon Quobuz...I can pause the music at a very loud volume, and again no noise....I don’t hear noise while playing music.  Please elaborate...

Just my 2c.

I've had the Yggy, Holo 2 KTE, and now the Rockna base model.  I've been able to compare them all back to back and the Rockna is the clear winner.  

From an MSRP standpoint - the Rockna is ~ 2.5x the price of the other two.  Is it 2.5x as good ? No.  So there are definitely diminishing returns at this level.    

That said, the Rockna is objectively better than the other two when you compare each quality/category individually (i.e. bass, staging etc.).  All of the minor % point gains in each category add up to a more complete listening experience in my system. 

More satisfying listening = less listening to the system, more listening to the music. 

So to me - totally worth it.  

As an aside - adding a quality streamer is a more juicy vein to mine relative to moving up from a 2k DAC to 4k+.  

Usatran yup your right about the Mac however there exists a group in this hobby that will continue to believe others speculation including their own without actually trying out said components or what have you not to mention their poor choice of highly compressed music some seem to prefer while making sound quality judgement calls of components.
Is it any wonder many of them believe any specific components over their set price is a complete waist of money only for fools ?

Well in many cases this is so true however with certainty this isn’t always true something I’ve known for a couple decades.

For the past few years I belong to a small local group of other enthusiasts whom on occasion we share components ect from our own system including dealer borrowed and purchased with return policies just for the curiosity of it and fun and we certainly don’t all agree all the time , tastes ,biases and including system budgets play a big roll and the guy with the deepest pockets in the group I agree with him wholeheartedly that you do not always get what you pay for.

Anyway getting back to the OP question regarding diminishing returns , start with the Mac , the amount of noise is ridiculous masking any attempts at hearing improving sound quality. Hopefully with a better choice you will realize there’s a lot more to your favourite music , the best part of this hobby....

Congrats on the new DAC! Recommendation: Try all permutations of gear and cables available to you. Do not be overly discouraged if some of the permutations with the old DAC as good as the new. That is the nature of mixing gear in systems. One simply has to try all permutations to know. 

You have now heard from several people who are telling you that the Mac is an issue, an impediment. Perhaps that should be the next move. 

Get the Mac out of the audio chain. I use a PC to control a 2TB Buffalo Box NAS drive that has all of my DSD, MP3 and FLAC files connected to a router via Ethernet. The PC is on the same network, so it controls the downloads from sites like HD Tracks and Pro Studio Masters for my downloads that go right to the NAS. I can stream right to a Sony UBP-X800M2 Blu-Ray player that handles the streaming to a Sim Audio Moon 100D DAC. Output from the DAC goes to a Yamaha A-S801 integrated amplifier which drives a pair of KEF Q500 towers. Needless to say, the sound is pristine. I just listened to Herbie Hancock’s “Maiden Voyage” as 192k/24-bit FLAC and I can’t even begin to tell you how deep the soundstage and how warm the playback sounded. In essence, it’s the Moon 100D and the coax cables that make the difference. There’s nothing mechanical in the audio path so the audio chain is unhampered by the physics of moving mass.

Thanks for all the help.  I purchased a Schitt Yggdrasil last night.  Looking forward to its’ arrival.  

12-31-2019 12:41pm"Percentages require a fixed point for a calculation. None of you, and none of us, have that reference point."

Maybe yes, maybe no. Like you say, nobody knows....maybe.

Then again, my take is that those who kinda know where that point may lie are super happy with their $1,00-$2,000 DACs while those who dont  are are already $8,000 deep into a DAC and wondering why they detect a touch of timbral harshness in the upper highs at the 75hz crossover point...

Maybe if you spend $1,500 more on a better power cord,  you will be happy...;-)

I'm just kidding, of course, but you get my point.
Cheers.

david_ten

Percentages require a fixed point for a calculation. None of you, and none of us, have that reference point.

Exactly! I could never understand claims in audio such as a 10 percent improvement, or trying to reach the last X percent.

Percentages require a fixed point for a calculation. None of you, and none of us, have that reference point. 

12-31-2019 9:06amIn my experience, albeit somewhat limited, I believe the 80/20 rule applies; you get roughly 80% of the sound quality with 20% of the cost. Its the remaining 20% sound quality where you spend most of the cost, and time. The proverbial rabbit hole....

80-100% agree with this...;-)

80/20 or 90/10...whatever you believe but we think hat diminishing returns are real. Music lovers seem to be happy at 80-92% while audiophiles and "gear lovers" pursue that last 8% with passion...and real dollars.

In my experience, albeit somewhat limited, I believe the 80/20 rule applies; you get roughly 80% of the sound quality with 20% of the cost. Its the remaining 20% sound quality where you spend most of the cost, and time. The proverbial rabbit hole....

Chord Qutest at around $1800.

Ianrmack, I am in agreement with you. Point of diminishing return for a component depends on relative sonic value of the system that component is to anchor.  No doubt the Cord would sound better than a bifrost in either a 10K or a 40K system (15k DAc/Streamer, 10K amplification, 15K speakers). However, it would be better to spread the difference in cost of the DACs across the lower priced system. Given the higher cost system on could justify a greater cost in speakers, which would likely be the next upgrade.

12-27-2019 8:51pm

I went from a bifrost to a chord hugo. Law of diminishing returns didn't apply there. HUGE difference. -Elevik

+1 - I upgraded to Chord M Scaler and Chord Hugo TT 2 this summer and quite happy.  

Wow..again, this kind of thing DEFINES diminishing returns for the OP.
LOVE the Chord rig, but it must be pointed out that the combo lists for about $10,000...maybe more.

This is 1% sh*t right here...as in pair it with a $5K streamer, $10K+ amp/pre and $15K speakers and you do have rocking rig for $30K.

But, at what price point do the increment quality gains begin to have "diminishing returns".

I believe that it is in the $10-$15K TOTAL system price range.(Assuming you dont have a "night club sized room"...-)
A proportionately priced DAC within the context of a budget like that may be around $2,500.

Fastninja , Doug Schroeder comment pretty much nailed one of the mistakes made when wanting more quality out of playback.
i know this to be true having experienced this myself a few years ago when an audio acquaintance with good intentions installed his IMac Pro in my system comparing it directly to a transport I wanted to transition away from .
It was different however I immediately knew the sound quality didn’t equal playback from transport, sure the convenience was fabulous using the Mac though I wasn’t looking for convenience alone.

later that year another audio friend let me listen to a smoken good server in my system that immediately convinced me 30 seconds into a ripped favourite this was the path to better sound playback for me anyway.

I bought a nad m51 and liked it so much i bought another to use in my other system. 

I went from a bifrost to a chord hugo. Law of diminishing returns didn't apply there. HUGE difference. -Elevik

+1 - I upgraded to Chord M Scaler and Chord Hugo TT 2 this summer and quite happy.  

Here is my two cents worth.  I had several ~$1K DAC and they were all indistinguishable from one another:  Jolida, Channel Islands Audio, Denafrips Ares, Schitt Gungnir,  and couple more that I have forgotten.  I upgraded to a used Ayre QB-9 and was absolutely astonished with the SQ improvement immediately!  I then upgraded to an Ayre Codex, with a similar sound, which allows me to stream my Oppo through the DAC.  It is fantastic for a very reasonable price.

I visited a friend of mine in Italy his summer who used an upgraded Denafrips Terminator and I was absolutely blown away with the sound of his system with his Buchardt S400 SE monitors.  It is among the finest, most natural sound systems I I have ever hear, regardless of price. 

He has since upgraded to a Chord Hugo (~$10K) and is ecstatic with the improvement in SQ.  He is adding the Chord M-Scaler device to the DAC (~$4K) and expects solid SQ improvement.  I do not doubt the dual devices are in the realm of the uber-expensive DCS multi-component DAC system.  

I know that there are some sub-$2K DACs around that get rave reviews, Holo is one of them and Audio Mirror is another.  Worth a listen, for sure. 

My take is that more or less you need to spend ~$2K to play in the big leagues of DAC's.  The Ayre Codex and Schitt Yggy will get your most of the way there.  

Yes ^^

My advice is decide on a budget and find the DAC that sounds good to you in your system within your budget. The rest is an academic exercise. 

If you can find your ideal sound with an 800 dollar dac , then its pretty stupid to pay more . If you cannot get your system to sound right no matter how much you spend then its not the fault of the gear . There is an incredible amount of ocd and mind over matter stuff in this hobby , I am surprised google isn't targeting me with ads for mental health just for visiting. 

I just believe that there is a threshold at around the $2500 price point. This includes:

1. Mytek Brooklyn +
2. Chord Hugo 2
3. benchmark DAC3
4.Schiit Yiggy
5. Sure, it can include your entry, too...;-)

After that, you need to spend more on all your other stuff commensurately to have a balanced system that can reveal the quality of a $5k+ DAC.

IF that is important to YOU, then go for it!!!

if you have other priorities for your hard earned money, then step off the gerbil wheel and  turn up the volume!! 

Performance/dollar is, in general, a logarithmic curve, meaning doubling the cost is not going to double the performance. So there is an argument to be made that anything more than a $20 USB DAC is diminishing returns. 

But I think what the OP is asking is when the cost increase does not justify the performance gain. I think this is a highly individual decision. I agree with previous posters that the investment in the DAC should be balanced with the rest of the system. It's unlikely that a listener with $2500 speakers and $2500 preamp/amp is going to be able to appreciate the improvements provided by a $10,000 DAC. On the other hand, this may be well worth it for someone with a $30K+ system. 

If digital is the only source, it probably makes sense to invest a bit more in the DAC, but it's still got to be a balanced system to justify the investment. 

DAC technology is probably changing faster than other components, so unless the buyer is not worried about cost, I'd recommend being a bit more conservative with the DAC purchase.

For me, where digital is my only source, I don't think I'd spend more on my DAC+streamer than on my preamp+power amp or my speakers. 

The Audio-gd R8 is FPGA based so you will be able to update firmware and improve its sound very often. 

I find A MUST to feed any DAC with a clean USB signal and I dont agree on keeping the Mac Mini. I have the SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo and it was a BIG improvement over direct computer USB, even with a W4S USB Reclocker and an Audioquest Jitterbug I had. If budget allows, go with the SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo. If not, a cheaper and I heard also good is the Ultrarendu.

My system sounds (for me) better than three multi thousands dollars systems I've heard and, even its not only the DAC, but the whole chain what matters, the Audio-gd R8 was up to the task. 

With all the options available you're going to have to set a price limit first,
regardless of whether or not you've reached "that point". Of course it's helpful to audition (at least once) a really great system just so you know.
Best of luck though. 

Well! I feel like I just finished my masters in DACs.

Not so (fast)... @fastninja12 : )

mtdining48 posts12-26-2019 1:46pmSince I have recent experience from Pi DAC through DCS Vivaldi stack, I might as well chime in. I ended up with an Ayre Codex fed by a Roon Nucleus. I have been quite underwhelmed by the Rendu products - Digital and lifeless, reminiscent of the recent McIntosh preamps.
The Codex was a massive step up in musicality, pace, as well as micro detail and soundstage over every less expensive option. Meaning full up grades cost nearly to over $10k. If I were to upgrade, I have to say the DCS Bartok is the most affordable DAC through which vocalists sound human.
As a side note, the R2R people and to a lesser extent the Chord people make me laugh. 1) are you really going to find two resisters that match?

2) a billion taps does not make your DAC sound as good as anything from DCS.

OK...this is just downright absurd.
To the OP...this is the kind of thing that your post of "diminishing returns" should warn against...;p-)

First, what this dude fails to mention is that the DCS Bartok lists for $15,000 before you are victimized by a $1,000 power cord and a pair of $1,500 interconnects so you "can extract the best from it".

In fact, this post defines the absurdity of "diminishing returns.

Second, make your system "balanced".
Meaning, invest in proportionate amounts between "source" (DAC/streamer), amp, speakers and cables.

A $2500 DAC mates well with adjacent components in the relatively same price zip code. This is nt a fixed rule, but a decent one.

This same gut who thinks a DCS is the only DAC to make vocals sound human also might mandate $15,000 speakers so that the DCS has the chance to shine on good speakers.

Me..?..like I have said three times recently: I'm happy at the 92% level of audiofoolery and beloieve that each 1% on the way to the unattainable can cost $2,000 - 5,000 and if you have the money and value that...then GO FOR IT.

Well! I feel like I just finished my masters in DACs.   I’m very grateful for all who took time to comment!  

Since I have recent experience from Pi DAC through DCS Vivaldi stack, I might as well chime in. I ended up with an Ayre Codex fed by a Roon Nucleus. I have been quite underwhelmed by the Rendu products - Digital and lifeless, reminiscent of the recent McIntosh preamps.
The Codex was a massive step up in musicality, pace, as well as micro detail and soundstage over every less expensive option. Meaning full up grades cost nearly to over $10k. If I were to upgrade, I have to say the DCS Bartok is the most affordable DAC through which vocalists sound human.
As a side note, the R2R people and to a lesser extent the Chord people make me laugh. 1) are you really going to find two resisters that match?
2) a billion taps does not make your DAC sound as good as anything from DCS.

I would second the suggestion with a streamer and a DAC. Mine are 1:1 at around 1.000 €. 
In terms of diminishing returns it is worth noting that many more expensive DAC are based on another technology. Many DAC’s around less than 2K are chip-based, whilst some more expensive are FPGA-based, which means upgradeable. So it is not just about SQ, but also Lifecycle cost. 

You can do much better by spending more than $2500 for a dac. $2500 buys you a mid-fi dac. The best dacs are of the FPGA type which costs more and you get upgrades that improve the SQ 1 or 2 times a year for free. Also, the better dacs have Ethernet network connections.
Also, you don’t need a dedicated music server for a number of reasons:
1: you don’t want any kind of server in your audio room
2: you don’t want to use USB to any dac, it is a flawed connection

your Mac mini is fine running Roon, just place the server in a different room and connect to your dac by Ethernet, keep it simple and provides the best SQ

Once again millercarbon pollutes another thread with his constant shilling of Synergistic Research snake oil.  Please stop!

If you have money to burn, pay over $1,000 for a any new DAC.
Not that SQ won't get better when more $ are thrown its way
but this technology is improving like crazy. 

I went with Benchmark for accuracy, neutrality and solid engineering, but I'm getting interested in Denafrips for musicality...not sure which models are significantly more musical than Aries2.  Any experience?Thx for Rendu tip.

i was lucky enough to find a great dealer (Basil Audio) that gave me a stack of Players to audition on my system in my house. I tried them all and while each had a great sound there was one that worked best for me. I blind tested them all again for my wife and she picked the same player I did. These were not low end players but each sounded different. I went with the Linn Akurate with Katalyst  and could not be happier. Take the time and find what is right for you and your equipment and room. 

Again, my thanks for all the responses!!

Get an Audio-gd R8 DAC (ladder DAC) and a ultrarendu streamer/bridge and you will be MANY steps above now and VERY close to a multi thousand dollars DACs. 

$2k for the Matrix XSabre Pro MQA DAC. Best measured performance on Audio Science Review out of 150 tested dacs.

Get the MacMini out of the picture by buying something relatively cheap like the following.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9j9ee-sonore-ultrarendu-network-streamer-ifi-ipower-power-supply-roon-ready-21642-music-servers-docks

It is ROON READY. It is an Ethernet-2-USB converter. Some call it a Digital-2-Digital converter. I use the lower model, the microRendu, and it isolates the computer from my DAC. A used microRendu can be had for $400-$500.  

Computer Audiophile just named the Rendu products as the digital product of the decade. 

IMO: The point of diminishing returns depends on how much money you have.

I would strongly consider an R2R DAC. You won't have to spend anymore than specified and there are many out there.

Thanks to all for the helpful and detailed responses.   All have helped.  I’ll post again once I’ve purchased and have had an opportunity to do some critical listening.

Again,
Thanks
Bob

I paid mine peanuts on Ebay...But the price has been higher-up now....But this dac is so marvellous sonically, the ratio quality/price is ridiculous steal... Under 200 dollars used, or new around 300...The Starting Point Systems dac, is a minimalistic designed dac with the chip TDA 1543, +internal battery ( I use an ifipower ) that produce a low noise floor... (Christophe Mariac designer) The sound quality is without any negatives in my continuously upgrading system (with the same components but in a continuously upgraded embeddings, acoustically,vibrationnaly, electrically speaking)… For most people including myself this dac is a messianic solution to the most difficult audio problem these days... To choose an amplifier, or even speakers, of great optimal qualities, at any price, is relatively easy ( for example used vintage one)... To choose a dac of optimal qualities at this very low price ( sometimes around 100 bucks used one) is an an impossible task...Except this one probably...


Remember these rules:

No dac at any quality level, will gives you something that can replace an optimally acoustically treated room advantages,

No dac will replace the upgrading effect of an adequate controls over negative resonance and vibrations, that plague any speakers and amplifier or any other gear...

No dac will gives to you the qualitative sonic returns linked to an optimal decreased noise floor in the electrical embeddings of your house-room and gear and magically replace that by his "magic" analytic power of resolution ( a microscope is not a musical instrument)...

Before buying costly dac, look for a triple solution to these three different problems...

In the meantime the dac I recommend is the perfect dac, because of his musicality and low price... Those who review it with limitations are most of the times not conscious of the noise linked to these 3 non answered problems in their own audio environment...
Indeed this dac has limitations, but I doubt that these limitations will be evident in an under 10,000 dollars system, that is poorly isolated, in a poorly acoustically designed room, in a noisy electrical embedding...Then the priority must be to answer those 3 problems before investing enormous money on a dac...

Differences between dac, on a near-same money level, are far less substantial upgrade...And differences between a low cost dac and a high cost one, are of no signification before the 3 remedies to those 3 problems...

My best...And Merry Christmas to you and to all...

I’ve not seen any point of diminishing return. It’s about system matching. Sure, buying a dCS Vivaldi stack and pairing in with a Schiit Freya will sound nice, but you’re probably not really getting your money’s worth. I’ve got DACs on hand that range from a couple hundred dollar Schiit to many tens of thousands. Every step up in price is certainly a noticeable jump in quality. Most of the gains from higher end products like those with Chord, employ custom chips and increasingly better power supplies. 

The DAC is not the problem, the server is the problem. The Mac Mini is, frankly, an atrocious server. I know, I used it for a while. One of the best moves I made in terms of digital sound was to dump the Mac Mini (even though using an upsampling program) and going to a dedicated audiophile streamer/server. I have written up three of them for Dagogo.com; Wolf Audio, Salk Audio and Small Green Computer/SONORE. 

As long as you continue to use the Mac Mini NO DAC will be optimized. That is not to say you could not see better sound from a different DAC, but it will be nowhere near the potential.  

Finally, if you are not using quality aftermarket cabling, i.e. SPDIF or USB, you are fairly wasting the potential of a DAC. 

That is your gift; Merry Christmas! 

I think anywhere past $2500 has diminishing returns. Plus, in order to realize the benefits of ”more” in a DAC, you need to keep spending on other stuff first, then you’re on the audiofool merry go around.

I pretty much agree with @ianrmack on this. For $2500 or less, you can get all flavors of DACs. My choice would be something neutral like the Benchmark models, but many others are available. I expect improvement can be had beyond that, but it will require a great surrounding system and room and maybe that improvement can be achieved cheaper otherwise.