Rogue DragoN or Bel Canto Ref600 M

The Bel Canto Ref600M are great amps. I think they are sonically ahead of the Rogue.

That is the direction I’m learning.  Thanks for the feedback.  

@cellorover 
have you heard either amp ? 
few people have heard the new Dragon based on the latest Ncore modules 1. since it is new and 2. covid effects on audio shows and dealers since the DragoN was introduced.  

OP there is a nice write up on the DragoN in TAS including product of the year.  

I have not heard either but have a local (1hr) dealer who carries both but I think at this point availability might be a challenge.  I plan to demo but wanted to hear others experience as well.  Thanks for reference to TAS. 

I am very familiar with both BC and Rogue lines though not as much those specific models. Own BC ref1000ms and have heard and considered other Rogue hybrid gear for the future.

I don’t think you can go wrong either way but the idea of a hybrid power amp like that as compared to a hybrid integrated amp like Rogue Pharoah or Sphinx is new to me. WOuld love to hear the Dragon. On paper it is one I would strongly consider. I am a fan in general of tube/Class D hybrid sound but also am always looking to lose the tubes whenever possible.

If you want to keep a few tubes in the picture that Dragon amp is one way to do it.

I also have a BC c5i Integrated amp. SImilar Class D amp but no tubes, all digital. Different sound!

Which is better? I think it comes down strictly to personal preferences. Both options are  likely in the same league.

Thanks for more to think about.  My thought was if I go BC snd want to play with tubes can always add tube pre.  As a matter of fact was thinking about a Rogue pre.  Initially going to use my DAC as pre.  I guess these are all first world problems.  Thanks again for sharing your experience as thoughts.  

Thanks for more to think about.  My thought was if I go BC snd want to play with tubes can always add tube pre.  As a matter of fact was thinking about a Rogue pre.  Initially going to use my DAC as pre.  I guess these are all first world problems.  Thanks again for sharing your experience as thoughts.  

Yes, if it were me, and wanted to keep my tube options open, I would go with the ref600m (100kohm input impedance RCA input, 200kohm balanced, same as my older ref1000ms) and throw whatever pre-amp I want at it, tube or otherwise.

That is where I am right now.  I have been in and out of tubes for the past 30 years.  It would not hurt my feelings at this point to get out of power tube replacement.  That is what is really diving my move.  I have not been a big fan of class D but it seems like the weaknesses are becoming less and less and losing the weight and heat is a plus.   

If you only have 1-2 sources.. a DAC being one.  DAC right into the rouge dragon (or any of the tube/D hybrids) could be a nice combo.

That SPL Director MKII or the Benchmark DAC3 both nice options.

My only input to start with is a PS Audio DAC. You offer interesting additional options. Thanks. 

This is not going to help much.

Both use the Hypex NC500 modules but the Rogue has linear power supply and tube input buffer.
Where the BelCanto use switch mode (smp) power supplies and an opamp input buffer.

I like the idea of having a linear power supply, of the Rogue, but not a capacitor coupled tube buffer to drive the NC500 low input impedance of 2kohm. https://hifiheaven.net/shop/image/cache/catalog/Rogue/rogueaudio-dragon-inside-750x750.png

I think the opamp buffer of the Belcanto would be better suited to drive that load https://ibb.co/jy63sq9

Cheers George

I've had the Bel Canto amps for a couple of years now. They do not disappoint in any way.  Musical, detail, sound stage.  I have been using them with two different tube preamps and the result is stunning.  They had the juice to power my Acoustats and the clarity to couple well with my Goldenear Triton Ones.  BTW, I'm using a BC DAC too.  Very nice.
If it matters, I listen to a lot of jazz and orchestral music, solo instruments, music from around the world, all kinds of rock, and plenty of pop from all eras.  It all sounds musical and pleasing.

Sorry wrong pic above for the Belcanto’s opamp input.
This is it circled
https://ibb.co/1sswLW5

Cheers George

Now that I look closely at the Rogue, it too probably has opamp buffers (circled) to drive the Hypex NC500 modules with.
https://ibb.co/S0ZySr7
With just maybe the tube as input for the buffer to give some tube flavour, good thing is that "could" be switchable bypassed by a good tech.
And would result similar to Belcanto then but with linear supply my preference.

Cheers George

Consider PS Audio M1200s, which have a tube input

I’ve had full tube rogue gear for years, like 20 years. I’ve not heard the dragoN but have read a lot of good press on it. One of the things I like about rogue is that, while it’s tube based gear, it’s not overly "tube sounding." It tends to be very neutral and punch way above it’s weight class. I would say that if you want the option of tubes in a preamp later on, go with the Rogue. Their RP line is stupendous. My RP-7 is amazing sounding and I haven’t even changed out the stock tubes yet.

When pairing amps and preamps great care just be taken to make sure they are really a good fit. If you stick with all Rogue it’s meant to be used together taking component matching issues out of play.

Having said all that, I’ve read great things about Bel Canto but have little experience myself.

Thanks everyone for great feedback.  I’m going to do my best to do a home audition of both pieces.  Stay safe, healthy and warm!   

the rogue audio RH 5 tube headphone amp (yes) is the sweet spot in their linestage lineup.  superb transparency and dynamics to die for.  
do not discount the effects and contributiobs of a good preamp.  

Agree nothing  wrong by any stretch  going with Rogue all out if that is what is in one’s cards. Their integration of Class D amp technology makes anything possible even with tubes. Great approach, great sound, great value!

Not sure which part of the US you are in but next week in Phoenix Arizona there is a demo planned of the new Classe Delta Preamp and stereo Amp gear. Weather here is quite lovely now.

Wow, I have just gone through a similar process in evolving my system. I ran my system for a long time with a Wadia CD player acting as my preamp directly feeding my Krell and then into my B&W 801s. I didn't know what I was doing with that approach to volume control, but now I do. It broke in 2018 after a power surge so I bought an OPPO 205 as modified by MODWRIGHT as it could act as a preamp like the Wadia.  Soon after a trusted friend mentioned to me that I was missing the potential in my system without having a preamp. After doing a lot of research on that idea and preamp models, I bought a Rogue RP 7 and it made large improvements. A few months latter I changed speakers to Wilson Sasha 2s and didn't have enough power with my Naim DR300 that drove the B&Ws. I REALLY wanted to buy the DragoN from Rogue but also looked at the Bel Canto line with its great reviews. There is so much negative back and forth about class D it made my head ache, but in the end I went with traditional big ass heavy hot running SS and am delighted, amazed really that amps to do SO much. in my reading this one thing kept coming up. I kept hearing strong recommendations to go with very powerful SS (high current) amps and tube or hybrid tube preamps as a solution (if you were not going one brand preamp/amp.)
 In December I convinced myself to try tube rolling the RP7 as a way to better feed the Sasha 2s.  I was told that by changing the two front tubes you make a change to 80% of the sound, so I bought 2 of each NOS Brimar, Mazda, Mazda Military, and Telefunken. Changing two tubes at a time was amazing. There are trade offs, but in my system I ended up with the Mazda Military in the front and Mazda in the back. I think I could have just left the stock tubes in the back but since I had the extra NOS tubes I used them.  Amazingly great sound!
To finish the story of my amp quest I ultimately bought the Parasound JC1+ monoblocks three weeks ago and then bought a used Audio Research REF 10 that I put in two nights ago. So many changes, but I am on a mission to get things right and then stop listening to my "system" and return to listening to music.
 I can't comment about BC versus DragoN as I did not get to hear them, but I can tell you that SS with a tube preamp makes great music. The RP 7 has nothing to be ashamed of in my direct comparison to the REF 10. The REF 10 is a lot better, but in ways that are additive rather than showing great deficiencies in the RP7.  The cost of the RP7 is very reasonable and it has been rock solid reliable for over two years. To be able to change the sound dramatically for 200 bucks is the best value I've experienced in Audio.  Good luck with your quest, you have so many great choices and directions you can go!

Thanks for sharing your experience.  It really sounds like the same road.  At this point I’m leaning towards the RP7 with the BC 600m’s.  Thanks again for sharing you journey. 

@avanti1960 
I have been out of pocket. Yes, I have heard both amp. I found the BelCanto more natural and effortless. 
I have tried direct from DAC to power amp in several system and always go back to a preamp in the system. 

But it all comes down to your ears in your room.

Thanks for sharing.  I think I agree but will post once I have experience.  I've ordered the BC's and the Rogue RP7.

I am considering the same two amps -- the BC 600M's and the Rogue DragoN.  I have the BC 500S, like them quite a bit, but am intrigued by the hybrid DragoN's.  Please report back on your experience.

(I'm also considering the  PS Audio M1200s, similarly interesting tube, class D hybrid).

but am intrigued by the hybrid DragoN's.

Hi, look at my 3rd post.
Not really a hybrid, as it still has opamp buffers to drive the Hypex NC500 amp modules with, the tube buffers are added in front of the opamp buffers just to give sound "tube colouration".
Not too keen on this,
A buffer from your source (dac or pre), driving "another tube buffer" and it's driving another "opamp buffer" before the NC500 amp get driven.
Too many buffers 3 x in series all adding distortions and noise. 

Cheers George

George I was wondering what you think about the build quality design quality of the Rogue RP-7? 

As someone who actually owns both the Ref600s and a Rogue Medusa (a very close match to the Dragon) I prefer the Rogue for a variety of reasons especially after swapping in some Mullard 4003s which IMO added another zero to its price. 

The Rogue has a better mid and treble. I had to remove 2dB of attenuation when I ran the REF 600s compared to the Medusa AND to the Rogue Atlas Magnum 2 which I also own - I design my own speakers.

MORE THAN THAT the REF 600s have been extremely unreliable and have been sent back to BC for repairs on several occasions and they still never fixed the problems of intermittent cut-outs and total failure. The most unreliable amps I have ever owned except for an old Marantz Model 30 that I purchased in the late 1960s which had several issues that Sony Superscope (their importer and owner at the time) never was able to fix - they should have just replaced the unit in its entirety when it was under warranty.

I had to remove the covers and put a fan on the REF 600s to keep them cool enough so they don't cut out - that's pretty poor if you ask me.

In the end the Rogue is much more reliable and cooler running and its sound is like a tube amp.