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SEAS Excel Magnesium Midwoofer 51/2 inches ROCK SOLID BASS

Just measured the  edge of surround, it is 5 1/2 inches across.
I am getting TONs or ROCK SOLID BASS.
Does anyone still believe in the woofer theory, bigger is better??

Especially taking room size into acct, Yeah if you havea  palace size room, maybe you want to fill it with bass, soa  8 inch/10 ibch might work for you
I think we should always bring up room size in discussion ofa  ideal speaker bass response.
also note, bass is bass,, well not really, Cone material and how cone is labed makes a  big difference. This SEAS Excel has FREE moving  membrane around the solid copper phase pluf. 
also in considertion is how well doesa  mid woofer/woofer  both voice the upper low fq's to meet  with either a  midrange(which i hate) and a  midtweet. 
I think SEAS hit on the perfect idea of allowing the come to move freely indepent of the solid copper phase plug. 
 Giving a  natural bass response  and adding  the fullest possible bass extention due to its undersized 5.5 cone. 
+ its my guess this magnesiusm material is superior to the old standard paper. 
I know B& W also boasts a  unique cone material, that cool looking yellow fabric,,but i am not at all keen on how their midwoofers voice the upper low fq's. Its too colored for my taste.
So yeah I bought a  sub system to catch the lowest fq's, but as my tech guy says, ,, for what? and suggested that dayton sub amp witha   Cerwin Vega 10 inch,, will only add some dull boominess, with no fidelity (have both for sale on Craiglist cheap) , I always believed maybe I should try to gather the lowest fq's missing in the 5.5 inch midwoofers,,, But really there is not much going on in the 20-30 hz area anyway. 
It would only add this dull  boomy noise.

Somehow Seas Tested and figured out the 5 1/2 inch mid is the best of both worlds,, meets the required low fq register and also meets the Millennium midtweet at a  higher fq  junction making ita  seamless transparent high fidelity image.
At least thats what i am now finally hearing after  upgrading  and repairing my newly acquired Jadis DPL.
IOW the Thors have come alive after all these 18 years when driven with high quality components. 

The Q is,  what is the advantage of havinga  woofer larger than 6/7 (foam edge to foam edge) inches in a speaker design? To what benifit?
Also we should consider how a   specific 6/7 midwoofer voices the upper low fq's that meet the midtweeter. 
This could bea  issue, where the tweet has one particular voice and the widwoifer has a  slightly dif voicing. 
=  will sound like crap.
I think Seas tested all these  critical parimeters and came up with theie Excel line, some 20 years ago,, I am now curious to their new Flagship design the Cresendo + Nextel midwoofer 2 way.
Taking High Fidelity into the 21st century and ,,,beyond.....
I am on the fence should i add this Bifrost as a 2nd speaker,,, or upgrade my Thors xover with all Mundorf Silver caps/ ULTRA resistors/ top of line coils

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqUDP4Byyo4
mozartfan
20 responses Add your response
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
mozartfan, you can not beat physics. A small cone is not going to project low frequencies well without forcing it which will just increase distortion as the suspension gets to the limits of it's excursion. Big drivers do not have to move as far decreasing distortion. You can beat this problem by using multiple driver arrays which is now common practice but if you want to get really low effortlessly, I mean below 40 Hz down to 18 Hz you need big drivers and heavy enclosures. I get flat down to 18 Hz using 4 12" drivers in separate enclosures each weighing 200 lb, 2000 watts per driver and digital bass management with room control. It will put out 115 dB at 18 Hz. The effect is quite interesting. The whole house rattles, glasses, plates dentures you name it. It feels as if he house is going to jump off it's foundation. Very Cool. 
If you really want to know what your driver is doing you have to measure it. Most companies do this for you and relate it in their specifications. If you build a loudspeaker system you have to measure it at the listening position to determine what it is really doing not in the near field. You can also measure it outside at 5 feet which will give you an idea what the speaker will do in an an-echoic chamber.  You never trust your ears at least initially. 
The benefit of a big driver is that you can go much lower than you can with a smaller driver all other things being equal. Most people have never heard a system that goes below 40 Hz with authority. Their concept of bass is different until they hear a system that really does.
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
Seas makes excellent drivers and I do believe they make subwoofer drivers. 
erik_squires
16,051 posts
 
I wrote about this phenomenon in a recent thread:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/there-s-a-lot-more-bass-in-a-6-5-driver-than-most-of-you-thin...


as well as here:
https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2020/04/how-to-not-buy-subwoofer.html

Best,

E
mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
mozartfan, you can not beat physics. A small cone is not going to project low frequencies well without forcing it which will just increase distortion

If I turn up gain,, my windows start rattling, Hows dem apples for ya,, I am not lying, these 5 1/2 midwoofers put out class A, super duper tight rock solid SLAMMMM. 
Bass  that can be heard down the block. = I have no use fora  woofer,, Mid bass is the best woofer ever invested, puts 8/10 inches woofers to the dust.  with their flabby boomy boxy boring THUD THUD THUD,, = 
mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
40 Hz down to 18 Hz

I mean, yeah OK, there does exit some of these fq's in music that go below 40hz,, but how much,, = less than 1% of the music,, = no I do not need large box speakers. 
These dual 5 1/2 inch drivers deliver heart throbbing SLAMMMM
 a  8 inch , even worse 10 inch for my size room would be over kill.  and sloppy, a  5 1/2 i inch midbass puts out tigher deeper real hifi bass vs a  8 or 10 inch woofer. 
The SEAS 5.5 midbass made 8 and 10 inch obsolete dinosaurs.  This technology over 20 years ago. 
Get with the times man, 
I am a 21st C audiophile
twoleftears's avatar
twoleftears
5,318 posts
 
I don't know if it's the exact same model, but doesn't Joseph Audio use these in the Perspective?
Graphene, of course, is a whole other story.
mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
I wrote about this phenomenon in a recent thread:

Just read through some of your excellent spot on research,, My findings are indenpent and thought i was the only one here who is bringing awareness of this revelation,, = That big is not always better and in this particular case, big is NOT superior. In fact worse in most ideal listing rooms size.
The Sacnspeak Revelator says 7 incjh,,,but from  rubber surround edge to edge its as the SEAS Excel 7 inch, 5 1/5 inch. 
I have no doubt in the lower bass fq's  the Revelator may surpass the Excel,,,but then in other higher fq's , I am not so sure for MY personal preferences. That revelator is one heck of a  midbass no doubt. 
So gald you have made these observations public and thereby  bringing enlightening EDU nto us audiophiles which , as you know can be easily persuaded into thinking we really needa  8 inch woofer. 
We don't, 
The 5 1/5 inchmidwoofer is not only odeal, but is absolutely perfection  in reproducing true super high fidelity bass. 
8 inch woofer may be acceptable,, but when compared next toa  7 incj, the altter will always win out.,,,,, 10 inch is obsolete in most listening enviornments. 
This Bifrost offers a  8 inch midwoofer and is paired with the SEAS Flagship Cresendo,,But is the Nextel  8 superior to the Excel 7 ??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEQnG1EQCk4

I have this same Jacnitha cd, and will upload a  YT vid and post it here,, you tell me which mid is superior,,keep in mind this Bifrost has far superior mic vs my Sony.
The Bifrost sounds warmer, = if warmer is your thing, maybe the Bifrost is your choice,,But then  how are the other components voicing the muisc?? 
Hard to determine. 


erik_squires
16,051 posts
 
While I think that it is good to let audiophiles know how much bass these modest mid-woofers can produce, it’s also not fair to claim it is the only way to go.

In modest living rooms, when not seeking concert level rock output these systems can be the best balanced, simplest alternatives.

At the same time, for dynamic range and deep frequencies it is also true that nothing beats surface area and displacement. The issue is the balance of the speaker to the room, and how the audiophile will deal with the issues as they come up.

I am by no means against subwoofers, or big drivers at all. I do think however that trying to use speakers that go down to 20 Hz in an anechoic is a terrible idea in the wrong room and can ruin an otherwise superb experience, much like The Cheesecake Factory has ruined cheesecake with too many extras.


Best,


E
mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
it’s also not fair to claim it is the only way to go

if we consider size/weight/price/power draw/over all fq resiolution/soundstage, the 5 1/2 incher draws a quick gun.

djones51
4,947 posts
 
The JA Perspectives 2 use two magnesium 5 1/2 inch Seas. The graphene is only a coating used as a corrosion inhibitor and perhaps small amount of stiffness. Mine have all the bass I like you will feel it. 
jon_5912
605 posts
 
IMO a driver that size never has enough punch to be satisfying in anything but a pretty nearfield situation.  8" is the minimum woofer size for adequate punch in anything but a nearfield setup.  I don't doubt there are people in particular situations and with particular tastes who are content with a small woofer but I'm sure not one of them.  There are lots of large woofers with negligible distortion.  If the good ones sound slow and flabby it's poor implementation or the room.
kenjit
1,771 posts
 
@mozartfan 

A 5 .5 inch woofer will not do better than a 12 inch woofer. You need to play a 20hz tone into your seas drivers at full volume to see why you need bigger woofers. Get rid of those tiny drivers or you will not be getting the required bass response for a high end audio system. 
mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
The JA Perspectives 2 use two magnesium 5 1/2 inch Seas. The graphene is only a coating used as a corrosion inhibitor and perhaps small amount of stiffness. Mine have all the bass I like you will feel it


Yes all the bass one could ever wish for. 
Was not aware of this fine JA Perspective speaker, 
Read page 2, starting *The JAP midrange clarity and lack of coloration,,,* all the way to the end of review,, 
this is exactly my observation of these SEAS drivers these past 18 years. 
Pull out your copy of Sophie Milman 2006 release, has Aqua De Beber etc song tracks,, here is s  graet reference cd for bass, voice, dynamics.
,,let me respond to jon5912,, 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/joseph-audio-perspective-loudspeaker-page-2
mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
8" is the minimum woofer size for adequate punch

OK I'll grant there area  class of audiophiles who are into that **big stage sound**

8inch in my listening enviornment has always been *overkill*. 
5 1/5 inch has always met my needs for bass, and then some. 
As you suggest, each group of audiophiles will have different perspectives and wants for bass. 
The 5 1/2 incher delivers all the bass i ever could wish for ,,and then some.
But for you it may be too anemic. 
And for me, your 8 inch woofer bass might just  grate on my nerves. 
each his own.

extravaganza
373 posts
 
it is not always abaut bass,18inch woofer can produce better midrange than 8
oldhvymec
5,101 posts
 
I’m wondering on the room size. What size are you working with, and how close are you to your system? There is a point where it’s just to small an enclosure to use bigger drivers...

I have a couple pairs of speakers that use 4" DVC woofers, I’m amazed at how accurate they are, and at 95+ efficient and 35 plus years old. They rock the joint, in a small room.

About 27.5 hz is as low as we hear, then we feel it. A 5.24" driver sounds so good because it is a MB driver. Most of what we call bass slam is not in the sub region.
50 (+ or -) 5 hz - 250-300 hz is the window shakers. 40 hz and below are foundation shakers.

A very well designed MB coupler has a tough job. Has to be fast, yet deliver a pressure that BANGS your chest. 5.25 is on the light side.
Smaller rooms though, they might be perfect.

I like 10-12" WCF MB drivers that are VERY permeable. In other words, mine have .60 holes in the cone material (woven carbon fiber) and they are lighter and FASTER and surely stronger, than most cones. You can see through them. They also use phase plugs, but unlike seas they are adjustable. Taper and length.

The other problem is inside the box, the back side of the driver, different issue, but I use a PR to control that, (overshoot and recovery) from the outside with weight added or subtracted to the PR cone, faster roll off.

Then there is 60 hz and below, whole different ball game...Whole different box. Just like your first poster, when you hear a well set up system Bottom to Top, you walk away just amazed...

I did some 55 + years ago. My Dads Thoren 121, C11, a pair MC30s and  JBL C46 Minigon

I started that day.......I haven't stopped yet, I'm 65

Regards
motokokusanagi
189 posts
 
I'm confused, the Seas Thor uses 2 x W18E001 (7") in a tower transmission line giving an F3 of 44hz without room gain http://www.madisound.com/loudspeaker_specifications/audioXpress%20Thor%20Review.pdf 

For the 5" W15, it has a specified Fs of 38hz but Troels real-world measurements were 50hz in an 11.5l traditional ported cabinet  http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SEAS_5INCH_FILES/TS-data.GIF
mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
I'm confused, the Seas Thor uses 2 x W18E001 (7")

WEll what i mean to say is although it is described as a  7 inch midwoofer,, if you measure the acutal foam edge to edge , it comes to 5 1/2 inches,, thats tiny, but does the job nicely..
sure as stated above depends on rm size,, my room is like 10 X12, 8 ft ceiling, small, but it is what it is. 
I am about 8 ft from speakers, ,I have gain low, not even 1/4 turn on Jadis DPL. Never in my 40 yrs as audiophile , care for/enjoy *loudness*. There is a point where i am comfortable after that gain,,whats the point of having more db level???
= I am not a  true audiophile, Loud to me is pointless/meaningless. 


@oldhvybelow a  7/5.5 midwoofer, , as in your 4 inch,,thats too tiny, the bass will not be sufficient. 
~~NOTE~~~ when i used the descript **SLAMMMM* above,, I was of course exaggerating, just trying to draw attention to the observation that **really** in a normal size listening enviornment, a  7 inch/5.5 actual midwoofer offers more than enough bass to satisfy the criterion of a  audiophiles demand for bass slam. 
Slam as in true hi fidelity(tight, subtle, clean, gorgeous...,,not slam as in hiphop , R&R, Grunge genre, which is just like bombs going off.  
It might be true though the SEAS EXCEL W22 or even W26 , may offer a bass which is even more luxuorious , sublime than the W18, , Thing is , how to xover  the W22/26 to  a  midtweet successfully. 
This is where the SEAS engineers came across  isues, The W22/26 offered too much bass, and  so overwhelmed the balances of lower midrage/midrage/uppermidrange fq's. 
Things were not balanced. So the perfect match could only  be the W18, 5 1/2 inch cone. = Done Deal = Case closed. 
W18 King of all bass/low midrange fq's  for regular/normal size listening enviornments and the most ideally perfect driver to meet the xover to a  midtweet. 


snapsc
674 posts
 
Combine 2 Seas 5.5" w15 midwoofers with a transmission line and you are going to get  deep bass with punchy midbass in most normal sized rooms.

https://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=Supercharged+SongTower


mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
Can not find any YT vids showing the W15 as having **deep** bass, as you claim,,I just can not imagine a  4 inch cone, W15 as having **deep* bass. 
Not sure why Sulk ever decided to employ a  W15 in  a  MTM...
IMHO SEAS finest speakers are the W18 Excel and Millennium midtweet. 
These are their Flagships, inspite of Seas' claim that the Cresendo and Nextel are their Flagships. 
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