Are any of you old enough to remember when certain brands of gas stations started to charge more if you used a credit card? I forget who started it, but most everyone followed. Maybe 15-20 years ago...they said it cost them more to take credit cards - at that time their own - so credit card users should pay more. Funny thing, those brands started to lose market share to the station down the street (Shell I think it was)who started advertising "Same price, cash or credit".
I suppose it is a little different in the context of used audio equipment or auctions given that there may not be readily or immediately available alternatives. On the other hand, those of you who are proponents of "tacking it on" may want to take notice the number of people that are annoyed by the tactic. As a result, some may chose to ignore your items, thus reducing the market size and, perhaps, reducing the price you end up receiving. Why not take the suggestion and bury it in the price and just make it easier for people to bid/offer to buy and maximize your buying audience. You can always offer up a bit more of a discount for cash if someone wants to go the PayPal route.
I believe this is called Marketing 101.
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When you go to the dealer you ARE paying for the costs of his ads, credit card fees, shipping material, his time, and even his gas to and from where ever he has to go. The only difference is that it is worked into the price already. At least this way you have a choice. |
Although "Danner" makes the most business sense, I would not like to buy from a seller/especially a dealer who wants to charge me for paypal fees. For most buyers it boils down to how desperate they are or how good the deal is. However, I still believe that the buyer has the advantage; there are a lot of sellers who do not charge paypal fees. If all buyers felt like me than sellers could never charge for paypal fees. |
I had numerous buyers offer to pay the 3% extra for paypal, even when I did not even ask for a 3% surcharge. I look at paypal being a buyers advantage. |
Most of us, whether seller or buyer, do what we can to make the other party as comfortable with a transaction as possible. Why complete a transaction if one party is dissatisfied? Communication almost always leads to a resolution of different but openly expressed views whether that resolution is to forget the deal or to proceed. It's just part of the process. |
I am sure sellers who list paypal as an option for purchasing is in fact offering this service for the buyer. I would have no problem with a buyer sending a money order or cashiers check if that is what they prefer. My experience has been that buyers want that quick, easy, non-lazy way of paying with credit card, maybe also because thay dont have the funds in their account to pay with money order or cashiers check. The buyer also has the right to decide whether they will go to their credit card bank and obtain cash on their limit.
Really makes me no difference, but if you choose to use paypal when I am selling, you will pay the fees, probably going into debt for something you cannot afford anyway and quite frankly, you can look elsewhere, makes no difference to me, the seller in most cases is offering this for the buyer, who does have choices and more often then not it is because they dont have the funds to pay out of their bank account.
But thanks for venting your thoughts here, in fact there is no charge for it here, just use of audiogon space. |
http://www.paypalwarning.com/
'nuff said |
I have to very respectfully disagree with Eldragon for the long list of reasons cited above plus when you go to an Audiostore you are likely to pay 15-50% more for the same used piece, albeit with a warranty. But have to tell you in 33 years of getting quality used pieces I have never had a serious problem, most times no problems, with any of them. If you need a credit card to buy something maybe you really should not buy it based on the overwealming evidence: $7000 in credit card debt of the "average" american household.Just my $0.02 :) |
Charging for credit cards is no more "BS" than charging for shipping. (I'm sure FedEx would love a law that said you couldn't charge extra for next-day shipping - to "protect" consumers, of course!)
BTW, PayPal is still FREE for non-credit-card, personal use. So use it in that mode and be happy. |
Cost of doing business, my hiney. What is this, a new form of taxation? I will add a few of you jokers to my list of people whom NOT to do business with.
And yes it is illegal for merchants to charge anybody more for the use of a creditcard than if somebody were to pay cash. Perhaps it is illegal with PayPal also?
Hmmm, I wonder if there might be some kind of reward for whistle blowing?
-IMO |
I will have to charge you an extra 3% to reply to this post. |
I guess you guys are right. The buyer should pay all fees and expenses related to you selling your "baby". How about reimbursement for the cost of the ad? Perhaps you should tack on ISP service fees you had to inquire while using the internet to sell your item. Of course, you have to charge them for the box and all packing materials you used to pack the item correctly. What about the gas you used in your vehicle driving the box to the shipper? And, the time you spent waiting there to ship your item? I mean, they are the ones who wanted the convenience of paypal in the first place, right? I learned from ebay power sellers, that most of the sales are paid for online within 24 hours after the end of the auction. While I would rather have a money order, too, alot fewer money orders come in their mailbox than paypal payments to their email accounts. Its simply easier and faster for the buyer to pay with paypal. The eager buys wants his item soon, and pays quickly. If they have to wait to go buy a money order, sometimes they lose interest. And, to support an earlier statement I made about retail outlets paying for their credit card services, it just happened to me 3 days ago at a local gift shop. The owner told me that she would have to charge me 3% on top of my order to use my credit card, because thats what the bank charged her. My order came to $60., and the fee was $1.80. I paid it because the store is going out of business and the merchandise was already 50% off. But, lets say it was another store, and I purchased an item for $2000. I already have to pay sales tax on that. If the store wants to add another $60. on for me to pay with my debit or credit card, I will probably back out of the sale. I would resent feeling nickle and dimed by the store. I wouldn't feel like my business was appreciated. So, the bottom line is that the buyer shouldn't have to worry about this fee and that charge - you agree on a flat selling price and shipping, and stick to it. And, don't start with the "handling" charges. Those are for customer service, toll free numbers, etc. A small time seller who charges blatant handling fees doesn't get my business. One thing i learned in the last few years is that there isn't only going to be a one time deal - it usually happens again. |
Yes, it is illogical and greedy to charge extra for PayPal or for a credit card. I too will not buy from somebody who charges me for PayPal.
It is a matter of convenience and security for both buyer and seller. Therefore, if anything, both parties should split the fee at most. |
Look at it this way, PayPal fees are just a cost of doing business, like shipping. The advertisment that states that the Seller is picking up the tab for shipping is pretty rare. Adding the PayPal fee is just another cost of ownership. Besides, if you hate the PayPal fee, take the above suggestions and offer 3% less for the item, or pay by check. I think it's honorable of the Seller to state up front what his terms are (especially in an auction) rather than let there be surprises after a sale is made.
I don't harbor any illusions that the 5% fee credit card companies charge retailers is absorbed by the retailers. Even in states that think they've made it illegal to pass on those charges to consumers, retailers are just operating at a 5% higher margin to cover the credit card fees. |
Eldragon: I disagree with your statement "What you are paying for is supreme convenience." (in reference the seller).
As Bowow pointed out, it is actually "more" of a convenience for the buyer than for the seller. If I am selling something, whether you pay through PayPal or with a MoneyOrder is no big difference to me. As a matter of fact, I would PREFER the money order because:
A) it's money in hand whereas with Paypal I have to specifically request a transfer to bank
B) if you contest the paypal charge later, they dock me for it
C) while waiting for the money order to arrive, I could continue to enjoy the item (though I always pack it up right away)
I also don't buy the RetailStore-CreditCard argument. Retail stores are a business. They sell a LOT of things. The fees they "eat" from credit cards are built into their prices accross the board. ie. the NON-credit card users are subsidising the store for the credit card users. Given enough customers, it all evens out. HOWEVER, when it comes to a private party selling their $5000 baby, they can't be expected to "eat" $150, when the benefits to the seller are minimal compared to the benefits of the buyer.
Lastly, in an auction, the seller CAN'T "build" it into the price. The bid is the bid, and based upon the buyer's CHOICE of payment method, it should not effect the amount collected by the seller.
Now, if a seller lists paypal as the ONLY method accepted, AND adds the fee, THEN it would be a little obnoxious in my opion. In that case, find another seller - simple. |
Paypal charges the fees to the seller, as it is the seller who ultimately benefits from the fast and easy payment. If the seller had their own credit card services, the costs would be more. As the previous poster suggested, how would you feel if, while doing business with a retail store, they charged you extra for the priviledge of using your credit or debit card? While these retailers are paying a fee to have these services available to them, they are absorbing the costs themselves. There are other online payment services that charge the buyer. Bidpay charges the buyer for their payment service. Perhaps the buyer who chooses this service should take that fee out of the sellers payment? After all, its not the buyer's fault that the fee is charged, and the seller wants his money. So, the bottom line is that, both the buyer and seller can nickel and dime each other to death. That undermines the goal of the seller, which is to get paid for the item, and for the buyer, who wants the equipment. What you are paying for is supreme convenience. Its honorable to absorb the loss yourself, and miserly to charge it someone else. It all depends on how you want to treat your customers, and what kind of image you want to project for yourself. |
Who pays the fee, buyer or seller, is not a matter of right or wrong. Its simply a matter of negoitation between the parties. If the seller stakes out a position requiring the fee on top of the price the seller runs the risk of either scaring away potential buyers or buyers offering less. A buyer who refuses to pay the fee runs the risk of not getting the item in which they're interested. You negotiate throughout life. Audigon is no different. The comment about the rule in CA simply tells me whoever pushed that through the CA legislature is extremely naieve. The government shouldn't interfere in such matters. |
I put add 3% for paypal but I do it to offer the lowest price possible to the buyer. You are right I could just add it into the price but I look at as why should the buyer pay the extra 3% if he is paying by another method.
I know when I sell something I want X amount for it. From there I try to lower shipping costs and fees as much as possible to get the buyer the lowest price possible. From there the buyer can decide on paypal or 2 day air or whatever they want. |
In CA and some other states it's illegal to advertise a 3% fee for pay-pal. Check the fine print at e-bay. Someone pointed that out to me once and they were right. |
I always make the buyer pay the fees and I always expect to pay them when I am the buyer. As the seller, I don't care how you pay me but, I won't release anything until I am paid in full. If you are buying from me and want speedy service then it is your wish and you will pay the paypal fees. It costs the buyer to get a money order and postage to mail the money order, so it makes perfect sense for the buyer to pay the fees. |
In addition to BOWBOW points:
1. what if the buyer doesnt have the cash can only buy with the use of a credit card? Does that not benefit the buyer?
2. why should the seller pay an extra $90 on a $3000 amp and when he could sell to a Cashiers check paying person and get full price?
I often times, in order to try out stuff to see what is all about, will use a credit card (Paypal) to give me a little float on the payment...using the Credit card co. $$$ instead of mine....I would not moan over paying 3% for that benefit.
I tend to split the fees (add 2%) when I sell....(i share the above stated advantages) |
I read not that long ago about similar charges being passed on to consumers from retailers using credit cards. If I remember correctly this is illegal? If I'm mistaken surely somebody will supply the correct information.
Anyway, I think the point Eldragon is trying to make is why does the buyer have to pay the fees that are the responsibility of the seller? Bow makes good counterpoints so I guess it just depends on how badly do you want the item up for sale? |
I use PayPal for my auctions and never charge extra and I refuse to pay extra. If you used your credit card to buy something at a store, how would you like to have to pay extra for the privelege? |
Bowbow, you have some very good points. |
In the past, I was selling quite a few MFSL CDs on ebay. I encouraged the use of PayPal. After all, it was quick and free!!! Now that there is a 2.9% fee, I think it really depends on the situation. If the seller is really needing money and doesn't want to wait for a money order, he should be willing to pay the fee. If the buyer is really in a hurry for the product and doesn't want to wait, he should pay the fee. These two cases assume that the other doesn't care about the time frame of the transaction. If both the buyer and the seller want the benefit of a fast transaction, maybe they should split the fee. |
Questions, I am currious:
(1)If it won't impoverish the seller because it is so small, why does it impoverish you the buyer?
(2)How much time and money do you spend running around to get a money order/cashiers check, plus postage/envelopes; and why is this preferrable to you, rather than paying 3% more and getting the item shipped the next or same day?
(3)If the seller could just raise the price 3% to cover the fee, why are you unable to offer 3% less?
4)If someone asking for the 3% was selling a rare piece of gear you've always wanted to own, but could not find, at a price so low, it is the deal of the century even with the 3%, would you not buy it as a matter of pricipal?
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