You are trying to save computer audio? I asked for real suggestions from you to take to manufactures. You mumbled out garbage. I'm sorry to sound this way, but you have ridiculed everything about computer audio without a single real suggestion of how to fix YOUR COMPLAINTS, not ours. You say yourself that 50% is extremely satified, I'd say it is more like 95%. Have you ever thought about asking someone experienced for advice?
Please state where you get the statistic that 50% are unsatisfied.
Where is did your facts come from that computer audio is unreliable? On this thread there are maybe 20, 25 or so people. I see 1 person complaining, not 50%... unless no one else counts and you are much too late, computer audio has already made it. I hope someday that you can find enough hi res downloads to make you happy. I have about 1800 songs downloaded and I admit only a 100 or so hi res, but I can attest that redbook cd's downloaded are better playing off files from my computer through my dac than any cd player that I've had in my system. I'm sorry that you are unhappy... Life is too short for that. Myself and it seems many others are very happy with our computer audio setups.... Maybe you should go fishin. Life is too short to be this aggrivated. Tim |
Regarding your quip about ignoring and ridiculing - your continued inability to comprehend what is being said has unintentionally made you the master of irony!
And again, your last post leaves me wondering whether you really believe what you are saying or are just baiting us for chits and giggles.
I mean c'mon:
"The wheels of Computer Audio are falling off way too many times, the word is already out on the street!...I was trying to save Computer Audio, but if you want to make me the bad guy trying to end it- guess my job here is done!...With the assistance of Microsoft, Apple, Macintosh, and you guys- failure is guaranteed!"
Never mind the grammar and punctuation - the tale you tell is gripping! The fallen hero - trying to save Computer Audio but thwarted by us simpletons bowing at the altar of the big computer corporations, all conspiring to destroy music. You, standing as the lone warrior, single-handedly trying to save music as we know it!
LOL!!! |
"Someday all New Music will only be available as Music
Downloads". I can guarantee you that it is "NOT" likely
to happen. Computer Audio is still coming out as 50/50.
Half are extremely satisfied, half are extremely dis-satisfied with the Sound Quality. You want to pave over,
sweep under the rug, ignore, ridicule, anyone who has a
serious technical issue with the Sound Quality of Computer Audio. ANYTHING BUT CORRECT IT! You don't correct it, it happens again and again and again. Dis-satisfaction
accumulates, and it will make swiss cheese out of any
likelyhood of Computer Audio replacing all other Formats.
The wheels of Computer Audio are falling off way too many times, the word is already out on the street! I ask you
to atleast glue the wheels back on just to save this Format. You live in denial, and insist that it isn't a problem. Do nothing, and allow Computer Audio to rack up
enough failure to establish a pattern of unreliability.
I was trying to save Computer Audio, but if you want to make me the bad guy trying to end it- guess my job here is done! Computer Audio is likely to shoot itself in the foot
before it ever replaces any Audio Format. With the assistance of Microsoft, Apple, Macintosh, and you guys-
failure is guaranteed! So sad, it had such great potential! |
Only like pulling teeth because you sometimes don't listen to what is actually being said - your own opinions powerfully drowning out any other voices.
I don't remember anyone saying "computer audio SHOULD replace all other formats". Personally, I do believe it WILL likely replace other digital formats but analogue is likely to continue being a niche market. This is not my wish, just market forces. It's just much cheaper for recording companies to offer these digital music files without physical media - and the majority of people are happy with MP3 quality (i.e. the 99% of the population not having these discussions on audio websites). For the rest of us there will be CD or greater quality downloads - as long as it is profitable for the record companies.
Again, this is not my WISH, just what I believe is likely to happen in the next decade or so. And I don't believe it is necessarily anything to fear. CDs don't really offer anything that a downloaded computer file doesn't - other than guaranteed 16/44 storage and something to hold in your hands while the music plays. As long as there is demand for CD or greater quality downloads and the recording industry can profit off of it, it will continue to grow as CD shrinks. Again, all in my opinion.
Please don't turn around and say I want to wipe out all other formats, adopters of high res computer audio want to wipe out other formats, Bill Gates wants to kill our first-born, etc, etc. If anyone is to "blame" here I believe it is the recording companies and the non-audiophile general public - they're the ones happy with MP3s.
Me - I'm more excited at the sound I get from my Mac -> Wavelength front end and at the possibilities of resolution far exceeding redbook CD. |
Petttyofficer,
You say you listened, but it is obvious from you're last answer you have not. You are just repeating some paranoid idea you have that computers will kill off high quality audio or other quality formats. Please show me the evidence.
No one is dumbing down, cheating or lying if you stick with the established retailers. Piracy is a problem, but I'm sure you can tell the difference.
No one is progressing backwards. You will find everything is available at 16/44.1 (CD quality). Now you will find some 24/44.1 and higher recordings. All the way up to 24/192. At a push you will find higher.
As time goes by there will be more. Give it time to appear. In the meantime you have the recording history upto today available for your listening pleasure. Not enough for you I guess?
Monopoly is an interesting word for you to use. People are using downloads because it's easy, and compatable with all modern equipment, and sounds as good as the orignal recording if kept at original sample rate. i.e. non data compressed.
For portable convenience some use data compression (MP3) to fit numerous albums on their phones/iPods etc. Still sounding way better than the Sony Walkman of the early 80s. But as we are talking about audiophile quality we won't count MP3s. Remember you could keep the original non compressed file in your library, & convert to MP3s to your portable device.
From a technical standpoint some recording masters used to create the glass master for CD manufacture are different to the masters for creating vinyl. This is not because of Microsoft or Apple. Its just the radio loudness war effecting things.
You see Petty, there is no standard anything. Besides you could probably find the masters used for creating the vinyl. After all they too were probably a wav or aiff file anyway... |
I am listening, Hfisher3380. Your last response was an
honest assessment of Computer Audio. Still, like pulling teeth to get this honest assessment. Others "DO" believe
that Computer Audio should replace all other Audio Formats.
Creating a Monopoly will never establish an alternate High
End Sound Quality Audio Format. Once other Audio Formats
are gone, the temptation to dumb down Sound Quality for the
sake of profit will be too great. Why would they do it,
because they can, you enabled them to do so, not a damn
thing anyone will be able to do about it, they know that,
you've painted everyone else into a corner, and it is the most profitable- so why not? They wouldn't because they love us? Way too thin for Alpha Format Status. You are
placing your valuable Music in the hands of used car
salesmen. They will lie, cheat, and steal to give you less-
and charge you more for it. You haven't given them any reason "NOT" to do so! This is very troubling to many other
Audiophiles. Need some guarantee, like larger High Rez.
Downloads Music Selection, TO-KEEP-THEM-HONEST! Not another
SACD, not another DVD-Audio! Short Selection List (SACD.DVD-Audio), something is definitely crooked for the third time in a row now. BUYER BEWARE- Computer Audio is no exception! Show me the Music Selection first, last, and
always! Why work harder, and pay more for my Audio Format-
so that we can progress backwards? |
Petty, I have left many suggestions and details of my set-up in the other thread - I refer you there. And unlike you I have actually POSTED my set-up on this site so you can refer to my system to see how I have things set up. There's also tons of info out there on the internet which any reasonably intelligent person should be able to sift through. It's all way easier to set up than a turntable, let me assure you.
I have never, EVER said that computer audio has NO WEAKNESSES - again you are completely misquoting me. I have said REPEATEDLY that computer audio is most definitely NOT plug and play and much effort is required. And I think there is general agreement on this. I would think that anyone with enough interest in audio to frequent a forum like this is used to putting in some effort in getting great sound - in fact I'd think most find this fun.
And again, I am not shoving "perfect sound forever" down your or anyone's throat. I have merely said that I have put considerable effort into my computer audio set-up and as a result its fidelity has exceeded the performance of any optical player I've had in my system.
Again, perhaps I need to shout but hopefully you'll listen this time: I am not trying to get anyone to adopt this format. I have no agenda. I could not care less if you adopt computer audio. Like you, I hope that computer audio does not eliminate all other formats - and if you truly believe that its adopters like me are responsible for something like this then you need your head checked.
I have adopted it because in my experience it has given me better fidelity than optical players. Pure and simple. |
"I think Computer Audio done right can easily beat an optical player in the same price range, based on my
experience and what I have heard (which is a ton). I also
believe that Computer Audio done wrong can sound horrible."
These are your words, I am not putting ANY words in your
mouth! Based on your experience (which is a ton), why not
tell us about your experience when Computer Audio has been
done wrong and sounded horrible? If for no other reason, to
give fair warning to any novice getting into Computer Audio. Nobody here (including yourself) will do this
because "YOU" are the one with the agenda! Even if doing so
would help promote Computer Audio by helping others to avoid pitfalls! No- you wont do this! You are Computer Audio's worst enemy, by not allowing it to progress- and
improve. You wont admit Computer Audio's weaknesses, block
any correction, and enable it to remain stagnate! You are
the reason why no one should get involved in Computer Audio, and others like you. You are shoving your version of
"Perfect Sound Forever" down everyone's throat. Only after
you get over yourself (and others) can Computer Audio
correct itself, and progress to be concidered the only Audio Format. You are just dead weight holding it down. So
long as this continues Computer Audio "CANNOT" be concidered ready to become the only Format! You get nothing
for free from this Audio Market- "EARN IT"! Grow up and
accept it! You can't seem to get others to adopt this Format, pure and simple! Maybe "YOU" are the problem, not
Computer Audio! |
Petty, once again, failure to actually listen to and process what is being said. "The other guy understands me perfectly and is extremely annoyed as a result" - which is referring to me. But if you took the time to actually read and more importantly UNDERSTAND what is being written then you would realize that what I ACTUALLY said is that I am annoyed because you are not listening - which makes your response all the more ironic.
As I said, I could not care less what you think about computer audio. What I find ANNOYING is you putting words in our mouths.
I'm not trying to convince you of anything and you certainly are failing to convince me of anything. Personally, I think computer audio done right can easily beat an optical player in the same price range, based on my experience and what I have heard (which is a ton). I also believe that computer audio done wrong can sound horrible.
As I said (and I'm getting tired of repeating myself), I don't actually care what you think on the subject. If you can't even listen to and understand what we're saying, I don't really trust your hearing anyways. You obviously have your agenda - which appears to be to discredit computer audio and to somehow characterize all those who have adopted it as attempting to kill music and all other formats. It's ludicrous, really. Believe it or not, we're just music lovers who have adopted the format, pure and simple!
Once again, please stop putting words in my mouth - THAT is what I find annoying! |
One guy says he doesn't understand what I am trying to get
across two thirds of the time. The other guy understands
me perfectly, and is extremely annoyed as a result. Half
of the buying Public is sold on Computer Audio. The other
half is waiting for Computer Audio to prove itself first.
One way to prove itself is adequate Music Selection in High Rez. Downloads. You are failing to convince the other
half that "Someday all New Music will ONLY be available as
Music Downloads". It sounds like an ultimatum to all other
Audio Formats, and it sounds like Impending Doom! It also
sounds like half of the American Public are not going to be persuaded with this Impending Doom approach. They are
not impressed- still you continue to push it! It is
Presumptuous and aggravating. It will only persuade those
against Computer Audio, who are sitting on the fence today! NICE JOB! Is Computer Audio your "Offer that we can't refuse"? If that is not Impending Doom- what is? |
|
Maybe what you're typing sounds coherent in your brain petty office but I have no idea what you're trying to get across 2/3 of the time. Between your one-word sentences, random capitalization tendencies and bizarre apostrophe usage I'm simply confused. Maybe you should get a grasp on proper sentence structure before trying to tackle computer audio. |
What "impending doom" high pressure salesmanship? Why are you accusing us of trying to annihilate all other formats, Petty? Presumptuous and aggravating!
As I have repeatedly said (repeatedly because you are obviously not listening), my alpha source remains my turntable. My Mac - DAC source has essentially replaced my CDP because it sounds better to my ears. I have absolutely no vested interest or ulterior motive - just want the best sound for the buck.
I have no emotional or commercial interest in or aversion to any format.
After all this, I actually couldn't care less what you think about computer audio or any other format - but please stop putting words in my mouth. It's extremely annoying! |
Proof is in High Rez. Download Music Selection. This is
where the rubber meets the road of the Audio Market.
Music Selection for SACD/DVD-Audio was too thin. They
did not penetrate the Market. Many dived in anyways,
cracked their skulls on the thin Music Selection of both.
Pool was empty. Some have learned their lesson this time with Computer Audio- it's High Rez. Music Selection just as thin. No sense diving in this time until this changes. No sense letting go of other Formats to dive in, not until Music Selection in High Rez. Downloads changes. How much
abuse are our Skulls supposed to take? Common Sense
Consumer Protectionism. Best Consumer Strategy is wait
and see. Your "Impending Doom" high pressure salesmanship
not withstanding! "Soon all New Music will only be
available as Music Downloads"- or you will take my first
born? If there is any validity in Computer Audio, you
wouldn't need to use Impending Doom- so why do you use it?
|
SACD and DVD-Audio are not computer audio... they require extra hardware and media that both cost money.... They both were formats competing with CD and the multitude of small devices. No matter what your format, it can be downloaded to your computer... for now or forever, the can be very competently converted to analog and as long as you own the computer... at least with PC, it doesn't cost you a dime extra, plus, you can store all that music on a drive, no getting up and changing cd's, records, etc... Hi Res downloads or not, I'm glad to download my redbook. Cd files sound just as good as the cd, I can choose individual cuts, I can move between artist instantaniously... proven format? There's nothing to prove. |
I don't know what more you guy's want! I have already
conceeded that Computer Audio has a huge potential. I
am only antagonistic, because it seems that many are
apathetic towards making Computer Audio fulfill that
potential. Only after it has fulfilled it's potential
can it then seriously be concidered for Alpha Format
Status. Still waiting to see if Music Selection in High Rez. Downloads can seriously get off of the ground,
although selection is definitely improving. With M.S.a
little thin, why give up other Formats prematurely untill High Rez. Computer Audio gets its selection ducks
in a row. The real Market testing ground will determine
if Computer Audio has real staying power, or will it end
up like SACD, DVD-Audio. Alot of us got burned on those
two. Forgive us, but some still feel that "Twice Burned,
three times shy"! Patience, time will determine fate of
Computer Audio. Rushing it too fast can only be detrimental! Nobody should be blamed for being cautious
after third degree burns from SACD, DVD-Audio. Need
something a little more "Substantial" this time in Music
Selection before diving in. This time that pool had better be full of water, and I want to see it first! |
Well, I think we've figured out what we need. A computer, with no operating system, able to convert all files to the single best format upon receiveing the file. It needs to be downloaded without going on the internet and be capable of being played with a built in DAC in the computer that beats out the best outboard DAC's available. I guess it outputs in analog, might as well have its own perfect gain stage capable of being turned off, so we can use or not use our favorite pre amp and what the heck, lets keep it under $500. |
Petty,
In computer audio, it is not a big deal to convert formats if needed. A program to do it is all that is needed. ITs not rocket science. That is one reason there are many formats. Some are redundant but some are not and suit specific applications best. For comparison, it is much harder to convert a record into a CD or vice versa. The days of everyone consuming the same flavor of product are over. Take coffee for example. USed to be Folgers and Maxwell House mostly. Now look. Sorry, but thems the facts. Just saying.....
Even with records, there were 78s, then 331/3 and 45s. Not a single format. Making a record player play different formats was much harder but it still happened basically because there was a market for it.
Maybe if the USSR were still around there would be a single format there. How about in China? Or North Korea? |
YOU're tired of exchanging endless barbs accomplishing nothing? YOU are?
How about this? Next time you start a thread and people answer and leave suggestions, how about you actually make an effort to absorb and understand what they're saying? Then perhaps something will be accomplished!!
Otherwise it just looks like you're coming onto this forum to be antagonistic. |
Not confused Hfisher3380. Just tired of exchanging endless
barbs accomplishing nothing. I still believe that Computer
Audio has a huge potential. I also know that it is still a
diamond in the rough, even those who support it have to
admit as much. I believe that it needs more exposure to
competition in the Audio Market to mature. To share the Audio Market in order to adapt to it. Once you see a huge
increase in Music Selection in High Rez. Downloads, then the question of making Computer Audio the Alpha Audio Format can be raised. Getting there, but still not ready!
Computer Audio still needs to deliver the goods (Music
Selection) to sell itself. Too many fly by night Audio
Formats, here today, gone tomorrow. A little skitishness,
and "show me the goods first" is normal in this Market. |
I think I finally get it - this guy is just slightly confused, he thinks that Computer Audio is a person... |
|
OK, get this, I come on here and say that I have no anti virus... I do a microsoft windows update and what do i get? Microsoft Security Essentials.... I don't know whether to say LOL or isn't that a kick in the teeth.
Of course I don't have to use it, but I found it pretty amusing after these post. Tim |
I was selling audio when Magnavox introduced the FD-1000. I believe it was the worlds first CD Player...Don't remember the year... Maybe 1981. There were 3 cd's available at first. It is true, manufactures have to have a way to make a living before anything takes off, but believe me brother, computer audio is taking roots... nothing like 3 cd's available. I use PC and am absolulely fine with it, but it has been stated quite well above, go with MAC for now, no driver issues at all, you won't need to deal with a Wasapi, ASIO or KS patch.
I guarantee that within a few years, you will see computers that are made to be used as a server, Highly efficient processors, with big ram and big storage, operating systems made to use minimal resources, with the best digital outs available, all standard equipment. I get your issues, just seems a bit overboard. Changes are coming, just hold on. Tim |
My apologies Timlub, that was not meant for you. It
would seem that ASIO patches are required to bypass
much of the processing involved with O.S. Computer
Audio. Why was this extra Processing installed prior
to requiring Wasapi, and Kernel Streaming? Why not
include Wasapi, and Kernel Streaming as standard for Computer Audio?
Music File type is a never ending open ended
affair no doubt requiring alot of Processing for all
of these different Music File Types. It is simply way
too many chefs here radically spoiling the broth. We
need some consistency here, a Standard that will allow
all Customers to plan ahead to establish their Computer
Audio for High End. You have Computer Audio going in fifty different directions with 50 different File Types, 6 plus
different Formats with a New One every week, multiple
ASIO Patches, maybe thousands of different permutations
based on these alone. Computer Audio is so open ended
that it would dissolve in water. Can't get a grip on it
if it just runs between your fingers. What is the selling point here? What is Computer Audio? Anything that you want it to be! Then what is it that I am buying so that I know
the value compared to what I am required to give up for it? There is no answer!
The biggest issue Timlub, is that Computer Audio
SHARE the market with other Audio Formats until Computer
Audio can decide on some direction. Let it mature, and
develop some consistency in reliability. If enough people
appreciate that, they will switch. It is just that you have inpertinent children who can't wait that long. They
want to shove it down everyone's throat yesterday, and
shove all other Formats out 10 years ago. They do not
understand the words "Gradual Transition" for the sake
of concideration with other Customer's. Historically this
is how you create a new Audio Market Format, not by nuking everyone who is unsure! You guy's creep me out, and you are only succeeding in scaring away the Customer's-WHY? |
Pettyofficer, all that and you gave me nothing to take back to manufactures... no substances rants just don't work. |
Pettyofficer,
You need to buy a mac for your computer audio. Sounds like you need help to set a PC up. PCs can be a pain. ASIO is there because a computer is an open ended machine. You tell it what you need it to do & then in most cases it does it.
It also sounds like your Internet speeds could be slow. If it is slow to download why not download your audio overnight? No need to sit & wait. Personally I find it quicker than getting in the car & driving to a store.
Hfisher,
I quite bait. It makes for a good snack. |
is it just me or when you see a really long diatribe do you just tune out??? my computer audio works great and i look forward to progress.....nothing personal pettyofficer. |
Nothing to design around- so what do you need Wasapi,
ASIO, and Kernel Streaming for? Nothing to design around,
just skip it. Why should you need any of these in the first place? Who would design a System requiring them for
Audio, and why would they design it that way? Why don't
any Computer Manufacturer's include these in their O.S.
Software? How many years have these 3 Audio Software
patchworks been around? Why does it take three hours to
download an hours worth of High Rez. Downloads. Technology moves forward, anything that doesn't keep up falls behind.
Everything Computer wise non-Musical has moved forward by leaps and bounds. Compared to this Computer Audio has not kept up. Anything that doesn't keep up falls behind. If it
is behind the curve, and no-one cares to change this, what
is the point of making it the only Alpha Audio Format?
This is only an extreme exercise in redundancy. There is
only one ultimate conclusion, no sense in even including a
redundant Computer Audio Application in a Computer. It
would just be inconvenient taking away processing power from other more popular, and useful Applications. Now I
am trying to keep Computer Audio relevant, and avoid this.
You can't have Computer Audio relevant by making Audio
irrelevant. This lack of logic can only snake around and
bite you...you know where! Convenience over Sound Quality
makes Audio irrelevant. Well, we used to listen to Music-
a long, long, long ,long, l-o-n-g time ago. Slippery slope
a long way down, and no going back. Hope you know what you are doing, I have my doubts! Don't you "LIKE" Music? |
Not giving up on Computer Audio, I still use it. I don't
get how Computer Audio is supposed to replace all other
Audio Formats, when it is being designed by Anti-Audio
Computer Manufacturer's (Microsoft, Apple, MacIntosh...
etc). It would be like hiring Furniture Manufacturers,
who cant stand one iota of Music, to build the worlds best
sounding Turntable. They don't have to, why would they want to, how can you bet the Farm that they will come through, how can you force the rest of us to bet the same.
You have an Anti-Music radical rogue element in your
formulation of Computer Audio- Microsoft, Apple, Macintosh.
They design Anti-Music, Pro-everything else O.S. and
software. They skimp on the Music end, and shift all of the
design perogative to everything Computer wise that is not
Music. This is Sabotage to Computer Audio, and your plan is
to use the Tools they design to create a Computer Audio to
replace all other Audio Formats? This sounds like a joke to
me, and it sounds alot more than a little mad! The idea
that you could touch up their Frankenstein Monster with a little dab of make-up (Wasapi,ASIO, Kernel Streamimg
Bandaids), what kind of creature are you playing with here?
You think that I am crazy? You actually believe that you have created life. Take another long look at that piecemeal Creature you have created- a crime against nature! You owe all of your results to these Computer Manufacturer's jigsaw puzzle of Abi-normal Software. You
are proud of this Dr. Frankenstein, and upset that more refuse to help. My only suggestion was that you scrap the
Frankenstein Monster and start over again...and BOY-
did I ever end up being chased by villagers with torches
and pitchforks! You have got the wrong target...oh what is the use? Now you want your Creature to toss the little girl
(Other Audio Formats) into the river- nice touch! You and
your Computer Manufacturer feinds are respondsible for that
"THING" running amuck- YOU take full respondsibility for it! I am NOT cleaning up after your mess, you do it! |
I have to agree with Chadeffect. I have been following this thread for the shear entertainment value of it and it seems to me that one of Pettyofficer's cables is malfunctioning, or at least there is a loose connection somewhere. I hesitated to use exclamation marks. |
Chadeffect, I think we have both taken Pettyofficer's bait. The guy is either off his rocker, trolling or simply frustrated because even though he's an engineer he ain't intelligent enough to "clean up their O.S. mess".
After all, any normal person who really felt this way about computer audio would just not bother coming to this forum at all - kinda like I don't go to home theatre forums.
I'm sure he's having a chuckle - and actually I am too! |
|
Hi Pettyofficer,
Well, I'll bite. I don't have much pull, but among other things, I buy Computers (pc) for a living. I spend enough to get their attention (few million), but realistically have little pull. I buy Acer/Gateway, HP/Compaq, Dell and a bit of Asus. In Acer, I do know some fairly high level people. I don't know what you are thinking about instead of an operating system, but lay it out, i'll take it up the ladder... I agree with you about alot that you say... but realize these companies operate on lazer thin margins, there must be a market or you are correct, they have little interest.
So, please list in order of importance, what you would like to see for your music server, realizing that the lower points, might not be looked at, at all.
I will do the best I can and report back... It could certainly take months. |
You may be giving up on computer audio, but there are still plenty windmills left. Mount your horse and onwards! |
The more you speak on this subject Pettyofficer the more I wonder if
1 you are joking?
2 you are a lillte mad?
There is nothing to "design around". Things are always developing. It sounds like you should do a little research. I don't see how any OS is "dragging you down" unless you are using windows 98!
To quote you "They can only sabotage computer audio at every turn". What does that actually mean? Is that like a CD player sabotaging your ability to play a film on DVD? |
Hfisher3380- what exactly is it that YOU want? Oh
yeah, "Someday all New Music will only be available as
Downloads", and all of our Music needs will be handled
by Microsoft/Apple/Macintosh extreme apathy team. What you
want is to help yourself to the elimination of any
competing Audio Format. You demand that "WE" buy into
"THIS", Bandaid ASIO's- this is what you are selling?
There is nothing that anyone can design around these
Operating Systems, that is my point! Only the extreme
apathy team can design an O.S. from the ground up to
improve Computer Audio, and still provide enough processing for other functions. They just don't want to spend the money doing it. It is no big secret, they will tell you to your face. We have had years of Bandaid ASIO's
for our O.S., they are just wearing too thin. You are
making Computer Audio into a Patchwork, a jigsaw with a
couple of pieces gone. Be gracious enough to pull the plug
on this terminal patient, if you are not going to try and
improve its condition! Get serious for once if you want to take over the entire Planet with a New Audio Format. With
what, a Whiffle Bat with Bandaids/Bubble Gum/and Rubber
Bands? Sure, that will make you the toughest Bully on the
Block! Still think that Microsoft, and gang, will still be
kicking your butt! Ditto on them butt kicking your High
Rez. Computer Audio downloading. I'm going to sit back and
enjoy it! They will keep High Rez. Computer Audio twisting in the wind forever- because they can, and you allow it!
Design around that- you can't! You enjoy them kicking your
butt, you enjoy the desperation of struggling to clean up
their O.S. mess? They unravel what anyone tries to design-
pathetic, and you beg for more! You beg alone. |
Wow - sounds like Armageddon is coming! The end of music! And it looks as if it is our fault for adopting this New Format!
Pettyofficer, I probably should have realized this sooner but your last few posts have convinced me you haven't a clue what you are talking about. I'm done wasting my time with you... |
This is different, Planckscale. I don't think that we are
a very small niche market for the Computer Companies to
care about, I think that they don't need/want our
business period! I think that they resent anyone trying to
shove Computer Audio down their throats. They do just fine
business wise without supporting High Rez. Downloads! They can only sabotage Computer Audio at every turn. Glass is empty after they swallow it, and you with it. A Turntable/
CD Player Manufacturer that hates designing Turntables/CD
Players. How do you design around that? How can anyone
even suggest trying to design around these guy's? You can't design Computer Audio with these guy's dragging you down. If Pigs could fly, sure; but if the Pigs even refuse to try- what is the point! Gee, it was a nice idea/Format
while it lasted. I can't continue to fight you, and them,
even to save Computer Audio from its own worst enemies.
It is just too much! We will just have to live with no
Audio Format if Microsoft, and gang get their way! Hope
everyone is satisfied with that! Don't delude yourself
otherwise, Computer Manufacturer's are lower than lawyers! |
Pettyofficer, enough already! You want computer audio to be improved, YOU do something about it!! You're complaining to the wrong people! Most of us here are actually quite pleased with the sound we're getting and don't need your "help".
Besides, you say you're an engineer. Then quit complaining already - design a "built for audio computer" yourself if it means that much to you. Enlist some help from your engineering colleagues if you have to.
But please, enough words already - we want ACTION!! |
Yes it is true that the audiophile is a very small niche market for the Computer companies to care about. But this has always been true by most [mass market] audio manufactures with regards to high end gears suitable for audiophile. Therefore, slow progress is to be expected.
But things are looking good...There are many here who have abandon the CD player as a source (including the SACD!). The glass is half full. |
Streaming from where, the Internet, Computer Hard Drive,
Thumbnail Memory Stick, PS Audio Memory Buffer? Downloading
is supposed to lead to "Soon all new Music will only be
available as Music Downloads". You want an entire Album
from HD Tracks in High Rez. Download, how do you get that
without downloading through your O.S.? You are still going to need some Web Browser Internet Access to gain access to
these High Res. Music Files. How do you pay for it online? |
Of course there are failures in S.Q. with other Formats.
That doesn't mean that there weren't design goals built
in to the Formats, and it certainbly isn't for lack of trying. What, pray tell, are the Audio design goals of
Computer Manufacturer's (Microsoft, Apple, Macintosh...
etc.) in designing their Operating Systems? In Windows 7,
in Windows 8? These guy's will tell you to your face, that
they have no intention of ever trying to improve anything
Computer Audio! Unlike you, THEY DON"T LIKE MUSIC! They
would rather play games, watch movies, or design new Apps.
for their Operating Systems. These guy's will always be
the Achilles Heel of Computer Audio, and can only drag
down this Format. Their O.S. designs create fluxuations
in S.Q. results for Computer Audio, because they are not
designed for Computer Audio. Customers who end up on the
short end of this, will always drag down Computer Audio.
You know what is broken, yet argue against fixing it. Are
you serious about Computer Audio replacing all other Formats, or not? Then atleast find SOMEONE who is willing
to design Computer Audio for that purpose. It is not going to fall from the sky, and you are not going to get any
"Love" from Microsoft- and the rest of the gang. So...
besides throwing rocks, what else are you going to do to
improve the design/reliabilty/consistency of Computer
Audio? Please...FOR GODS SAKE...NOT MORE BANDAIDS!!!
You want Computer Audio, then do something about it- I
DARE YOU! Now that should do it. I happen to love Music,
unlike you know who- that you are relying on to design the
O.S. for Computer Audio. I am NOT the one holding you back! |
|
Upnp streaming with a PS audio completely bypasses the computer operating system. There are others that do the same I believe. |
Pettyofficer - your complaints are directed at "computer audio" but are completely misdirected. What you are arguing is true of all formats. Some recordings sound great and others...not so much. But none of it sounds as good as the master tape or live music. This is no more the fault of "computer audio" than it is of the CD player or turntable.
It's also hard to tell at whom you are specifically ranting and railing. Microsoft? Apple? HDtracks? Other audio manufacturers? Audiogon members? Hard to tell because you're all over the place.
Give it a rest already! |
Even if someone can build the greatest computer audiophile system in a box, the same sound quality can be achieved by anyone willing to put components together. That is the beauty of computers technology. Therefore, there is nothing that is stopping you right now from achieving the greatest sound quality possible, within the limitation of current technology. You could also save some money and become more acquainted with the technologies that impact of your hobby :). And things will continue to improve Window 7 is much better that XP with regards to audio playback; I hear the new JRiver can playback audio files from the system RAM.
Computer is a multifunctional device and as such, it can be made to do/automate many different things. All you need is good peripheral devices, software (OS and apps), and a little bit of technical inclination on the end-users. That's all.
My current DAC is Mhdt USB Paradesia...It sounds satisfactory nice on my PC based system. However, I understand its limitations mostly because of technological advances (i.e. it does not support asynchronous USB, no support for higher sample rates such as 96, 176.4 or 192kHz, etc). Buy the DAC is just a peripheral - a component that can be upgraded! |
Pettyofficer,
Windows 8 is not yet available for purchase, I have a developers copy. You sure seem on a rampage over Computer Audio... I'd just like to know a bit more about using Windows 8 before I down load it. I am fine with no Anti Virus. Again, dedicated music server. I've never heard of a virus coming from a Microsoft windows update, Sorry, I don't have a Swiss Army knife, but strangely enough, I do have a Samurai sword.
Band aids, swiss army knives, software designers concerns or intent??? We work with what we have. I have Wasapi and KS downloaded, both work fine. I guess I'm a Zombie, just trying to get the best performance I can out of whats available. No disrespect intended, just now sure where you were going with all that...
Does anybody know of any issues using Windows 8? |
Hi Pettyofficer,
Sorry if we keep crossing answers. I think there is a delay between our posts appearing.
I copied my response below to this thread because we are crossing a couple of threads now.
Any Hifi system will have variable results. Computer based or not. My understanding of your complaint is shifting slightly now over a couple of different threads.
I think your complaint still is about set up. But it's about which version of which software you can run on what operating system. If this is the issue, then I understand.
So with that in mind you fall into a couple of camps.
1 latest version of everything. So update regularly. This is easy although a pain in the butt sometimes.
2 get it all to a point where you are happy & do not update. Just enjoy.
I must admit with a PC I recommend the later point. Although keep Security updated.
The SQ differences are pretty slight once you have set up the main software issues although functionality is probably better.
Hope this helps. |
Pettyofficer,
Are you suggesting that downloading a music file to your computer is being effected by your operating system?
Do you feel it is being corrupted somehow? I must admit I am struggling to see your point now. |
Petty,
At it again i see?
Its like food. Some is good and some not so good?
You need a good recipe. And a decent chef.
How much simpler could it be? |
Timlub- Fine for downloading from HDTracks, but what about
downloading anything else- latest software update for your
Media Player for example? Did you purchase Windows 8 from
certified Windows Retailer? Microsoft is really flaky with
the 12 Month free Customer Service. I bought Windows 7, but
because the disk sat on the shelf for a year I was only
eligible for 6 Months. The clock for this free Service doesn't begin on day of purchase, as you would expect. Try getting Microsoft Service after it has expired- lotsa luck!!!
Chadeffect- read my last response and tell me where I referred to sending Music File to a DAC? Lets both get back
on the same page now! I am referring to Downloading of Music Files, which always have to pass through an Operating
System. "Soon all new Music will only be available as Music
Downloads"- so I have been told a thousand times. O.S.
design for Audio Downloading still the perogative of
Microsoft, Apple, Macintosh....etc. You prefer the
processing for downloading of High Rez. Music Files. They
prefer the processing for games, Apps, DVD Movies...etc.
They prefer as little Processing as possible for Music ie:
Lower than CD Resolution MP3. They design the O.S. around
their perogative, pushing yours aside. This is the reason
why you need Wasapi, ASIO, Kernel Streaming...etc. It is
like taking a swiss army knife (Computer Audio with current
O.S.) to a Samurai Sword Fight (Other Formats specifically
designed for Music only). Be sure to bring lots of Bandaids
(Wasapi, ASIO, Kernel Streaming). I would think that you
would eventually get sick, and tired of being forced to
fight with a swiss army knife- and demand some help/improvement! Instead of holding your swiss army knife up as the Tool to best/replace all Samurai Swords. Sure,
you can design the swiss knife to do this- not without the
redesign of the O.S. by Computer Manufacturer's. They just
aren't the Music type. The result is a mixed bag of S.Q.
results for different listeners due to lack of consistent design in the O.S. for Music! Well lets just ignore this
and full speed ahead with Computer Audio anyways! Many
listeners get different results, and this only drags
Coumputer Audio down. Some think that this can be resolved by ignoring the original design of the O.S. by the
Computer Manufacturers. I suggest that you remove this ball, and chain around the neck of Computer Audio. It is
the only way to make sure! There are no other alternatives.
Edorr- of course there are limiting factors like the Sampling Rate of the Music File, and the Sampling Rates that your DAC can decode. Studio's are using a DXD Format
for editing, and mixing numerous Music Sources. It is
supposed to have a higher Sampling Rate than even SACD!
Don't buy the old wives tale of "Bits are just Bits". That
was old when the first CD came out. Don't mind pushback.
Better to get these issues out in the air. Many just want
everyone to blindly accept Computer Audio, like Zombies from the Walking Dead. I remain open to Computer Audio, but
it has to earn its position by consistently providing reliable S.Q. with a Music Selection that many can enjoy.
Only one way to do that! Current solutions wont accomplish
this. |
Pettyofficer, some of the pushback you are getting may be related to your inappropriate reference to computer audio as a "format". This may be just semantics, but it is not a format. There is nothing inherently limiting SQ in any lossless formats used in computer audio. They are the same bits and just as many as the ones in the studio. |
Pettyofficer, I am a little shocked that you feel a computer cannot send a music file perfectly to a DAC. Its a tiny insignificant task in the scheme of things. Surely the DAC has been specifically designed to convert audio? A computer has been specifically designed to calculate & deal with data.
What are we taking here? Sending a file that's approx 750MB (if its a full CD) or possibly more if a high res file to a DAC. Come on. I doubt you could even find a computer that doesn't have at least 2GB ram today let alone unable to send that perfect data to another piece of hardware.I.e a DAC.
You don't seem to grasp that the "file" is totally designed for music & you can choose the type of file (I.e Wav/aiff/flac etc) & the quality of it. It is the file format used to record the music in the recording studio.
It is easy to point at MP3s. obviously these are not for an audiophile system. So forget the MP3 compression compromise in this context.
I feel I need to say for about the 5th time to you that you just have to choose & set up your system. Just like any other part of your Hifi.
If you choose a PC it means you need to turn that software off & install this playback software which will send to the DAC via USB or Firewire etc. For a Mac you run this software etc using FireWire or bolt or USB to your excellent & beautifully designed DAC.
Most of the S.Q issues will be further down the chain after that. The biggest issue will be the recording itself. It's irrelevant if it's 44.1 or 96 etc. if its a lame recording it will be at any resolution.
So switch on your computer & choose the track/s you want to play via an iPad/smart phone or on a qwerty keyboard. S.Q will be good. To get all audiophool follow the usual tweaks & tune tone to taste.
If this is beyond you get someone to help & use this forum for advice. I can give you a list if you like. If you follow it you will probably leave this subject alone & be listening to some of the finest audio you have heard.
Get over yourself. It's all already been designed. Designed to deal with far more taxing issues than streaming digital 2 channel playback. Its the 21st century! Not 1901. Find the right set up for you and Just use it. There are potentually far less compromises than any other "format" you describe. |
