Should Sound Quality of Computer Audio be improved

Unable to respond to, "Mach2Music and Amarra: Huge Disappointment"- Thread. Other Members take free pop-shots!
Apparently some have more Freedom Of Speech than others! I
don't know how many times I have said it, I want Computer
Audio to succeed! It will only succeed if Computers are designed from the ground up to reproduce Music (Same minimum standard applied for Equipment of ALL Audio Formats)! This is common sense Audio Engineering Design. Bandaid Modifications cannot be substituted for absence in design to produce Music! Design it right to EARN the right to become a New Audio Format- same as all other Audio Formats! No Freebee's, No Cutting Corners! Lack of design is what's causing such varied results in S.Q. between
listeners of Computer Audio. I see about 50% negative
responses here on these Threads. It will continue to happen unless you fix it! Blaming me won't help! I am an
Engineer, and I can read results! 50/50 success/ failure
rate- you have an inherit Engineering Design Flaw for the
reproduction of Music via Computers! Shock! Suprise- since
they were never designed for Music! So when is someone finally going to properly design the Equipment/Computer
(From the ground up) for Computer Audio? Do we continue
to treat any real criticism as "HERESY" in the lack of
design in Computer Audio for Music? You tell me what I am
allowed to talk about, and we will both know!

No need for apologies as far as I'm concerned. You raised a valid point concerning the availability of all music genres and artists on high resolution downloads. I'm a new convert to computer audio and, after recently searching for my favorite artist's songs on high resolution downloads and often coming up empty, I have a better understanding of your frustrations. I've ripped all my CDs to my hard drive but I consider this 'standard resolution' and would like to compare these to atleast 24 bit/96khz , and ideally even higher, resolution. I hope I was right when I said free market forces, namely supply and demand, will likely solve this shortage. These forces sure are taking their time on this commodity, right?
No worries....maybe,
My apologies to everyone. I am just unsure as to what everyone considers as "Musical Archive". Back in the day I
seem to remember a lot of Musical Archive stored on Master Analog Tape. CD happened, then New Music was recorded on DAT
Tape. The last that I heard Sony was transferring their entire Master Analog Tape Musical Archive onto SACD DSD Disks. At some point all New Music was being recorded ( Or
Transferred onto Music Files ). I have no idea of the Source
for Musical Archive ( Old and New Music ). Is everything currently stored as Music Files, or is it just recent New Music? How is some of our older Music being stored? If all of it is currently stored as Music Files then Downloading would make sense. If all of it is not stored as Music Files then how do we eventually Download it? I have many CDs, but
I don't have every CD made during the 80's or 90's from every Artist. I don't have everything available to rip, and now many CDs are no longer in print- therefore unavailable for Ripping. A lot of Music becomes unaccessable unless it is eventually available as Download. It is this lack of access that is my main issue. It doesn't seem to be anyone else's issue. It seems like a "Catch-22" with no way out- and it is very frustrating to deal with. My apologies for any aggravation.
EXACTLY. CDs and downloads are basically the SAME format. The only difference is downloads are not limited to 16/44.

The trend in everything digital is AWAY from physical media - and with good reason. No matter how much Petty kicks and screams.

Well said and ditto.

I'm older,too, and I'll be using downloads and ripped cds until something better comes along. Another benefit of computer audio is the ability to record not only your own cds, but your friends' and acquantances' cds and files ,too, without cost.

The main reason CDs are still around and similar or better higher res downloads not common yet is that large files and data volumes are involved and most are not equipped with the technology yet to handle these data volumes on the scale of a large "music library". That's the biggest reason CDs will not go away for quite a while yet, though eventually they will be mostly replaced by downloads. The CD format has proven to be a winner over the years and holds up better than ever these days in regards to sound quality, so I doubt any new physical format will make a major impact in the interim. CDs/downloads are where its at for music and the trend will be towards more downloads. Of course some new records and other one off formats might persist to some extent as well as a niche product, and we will continue to have access to all those records and CDs already out there on teh used market. Lifespan of CDs in particular is quite long, so the ones around today will continue to work just as well for many years into the future until the day when most of our entertainment media sources become virtualized. Older guys like myself and even Petty I imagine will probably not be around to see that.
Not looking for benefit from greater selection in High Resolution Music Downloads, Hfisher3380. Looking for the
SAME selection available that we have become accustomed to
from other Formats. It is a simple common sense requirement
that Music Downloads do provide adequate Music Selection as
a prerequisite to "Soon All New Music Will Be Only Be Available As Music Downloads". You can't accomplish that
stated goal without adequate selection. Prematurely killing
CD selection (Without Music Download Replacement) will not get you there any faster, and in fact mind end up strangling Music Download Format. If you can't find your favorite Artists on ANY Format, you can't avoid the discouragement. Especially when multiple Titles of your
favorite Artist were easily available on previous Format.
Your presumption is that there is no consequence from
discouragement from lack of selection in Computer Audio Music Download Format switch over. Every action (Even lack
of action) has an opposite and equal reaction (Consequence). It is not crazy to point that out! Going out on a limb is dangerous and un-necessary, and can only hurt Music Download Format. My only suggestion is that someone here do the exact opposite to aid Music Download Format.
Time for Music Downloads to finally take their medicine prior to becoming Alpha Dog Audio Format. Audio Market, and necessity, demands it. A selection vacuum is simply a drawback for any New Audio Format.
Agree, we would all benefit from greater selection in high res downloads...about this there is no argument. Somehow blaming us for this situation IS a problem though!

After, someday all new music will only be available as downloads.

mmmmmMMMMMWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! computer audio and its enthusiasts are somehow to blame for 10000 out of print CDs. And you have not even been able to name EVEN ONE that you have been unable to find. Right. Makes perfect sense...

Here's a little hint for you, Sherlock. CDs, records, books...these things go out of print all the time, format changeover or not. I work in the health care field - a recent phenomenon has been various medications going out of production - the pharmaceutical industry stops producing them. Must be that dang computer audio crowd causing that as well!

In my last post, I conceded that you have a point : the availability of quality downloads needs to increase dramatically, and quickly, for the future of computer audio to be successfull. Enough said?

Now, can we all agree that we've all beaten the sh!# out of this poor dead horse?

Please, don't make me alert those sticklers at the Dead Horse Anti-Cruelty Society.


Hate to say it but your tirades sound, well, petty.

BE glad you do not live in a third world country where choices are more limited and count your blessings. Unless that is where you live? In that case, better times hopefully lie ahead.
Noble100- I don't think that you have read all of my Responses. If you had you would know that I haven't given up on Computer Audio Downloads. There really isn't a choice now on the Audio Market. The Format isn't the issue. If 10,000 Records were suddenly yanked off of the Market at the site of a hundred CDs ( At the beginning of CD ), this leaves a disparity of 9,900 Titles no longer available on the Market in either CD, or LP! I would be raising a big stink about my limited access to those 9,900 REGARDLESS of what Format they are in. If they aren't available in either,
THAT IS THE POINT! They used to be regardless of the Format.
Now it is 10,000 CDs suddenly yanked, Music Downloads in no way nearly replacing those 10,000, again a huge hunk of Musical Archive is no longer available on the Market in either Format. There will be another 10,000 gone soon, plus another 10,000 gone soon...etc. Music Download Selection increasing by a trickle, NOT by leaps and bounds of 10,000
to replace our Music. THAT IS THE PROBLEM! Replacing Audio Formats WITHOUT replacing our Music accomplishes what??? Type of Format ( CD/8-Track/Cassette/SACD/LP...etc. ) doesn't matter! The elimination of available Music Archive on the market is being used to HERD everyone towards Music
Downloads by cutting off options for selection in other Audio Formats. We are being manipulated by the old "Shell
Game" of trying find your favorite Music Artists under the shell of whatever Audio Format. It is rigged, the fix is in. This is hardly an honest attempt to replace one Audio Format with another. "Soon All New Music Will Only Be Available As Music Downloads"- by Rook or by Crook by holding your Wife ( And Access To Your Music ) HOSTAGE!
Yeah, I resent it! My Spider Sense is sending shock waves of Red Flags over this. Why such dishonesty from an Audio Format that is supposed to be beneficial??? All that you have to do to see the dishonesty is be able to add. I think people with Computers should be able to handle that- which leads me to believe that there is another ulterior motive
other than a simple mistake in math. Ostrich Math perhaps?
Ostrich Math does what for my access to Music Archive, besides make it disappear, no matter what the Format. The Ostrich promises that the difference will be made up in the future, an I am supposed to be gullible enough to believe it? How about a size 10 up the Ostrich's Butt so he will cough up some more of my missing Music whatever the Format.
I can't believe for a second that I am the only one in the Universe with a size 10! Give me my Music back IN ANY FORMAT so that I have the same access that I used to enjoy.
Not accepting any excuses. We have had Music Downloads available for how many years now- five or more? Someone is dragging their feet on purpose, and my access to Music suffers because of it. Yet, Music Listeners can't understand why???

Having recntly retired myself, I like your idea of syndication and royalties.

Unfortunately, I think we may need to be the ones paying readers to slog through this exceedingly long and redundant thread.

I'm going to switch my efforts to how to best connect my pc, with JRiver media center now added, via a usb dac to my preamp. It'd be nice if a wireless solution would give me the fidelity I strive for.

Have fun,
Hfisher3380- refer to my previous response. Do you see how I did that? I am not satisfied with the severe limited selection of Music Downloads to make it the ONLY Format left available- "Soon All New Music Will Only Be Available As Music Downloads". If it doesn't provide what I need, I go somewhere else. If enough people do the same then maybe there will be a response to actually INCREASE the Music Selection in Music Downloads. Increased Selection might actually be the very thing that puts Computer Audio over the top....oh, say "Blue-Ray Audio"? The LACK of Music Selection might very well do the opposite, and put Blue-Ray
Audio over the top. The best way to insure that this happens is to further continue setting the bar low for Music Download Music Selection. You are severely hurting Computer Audio's chances by handicapping it with a severely
limited selection in Downloading. It becomes painfully obvious when comparing other options to Music Downloads.
Oh, look there! My favorite Artists are available on Blue-Ray Audio. Damn shame about Music Downloads dragging their feet in selection, still can't find my favorite Artists. Remind me again how long Music Downloads have been available? How many years? Someone had better get motivated,
or end up being left in the dust. Do nothing, and seal Computer Audio Downloading's fate. You will be waiting a long...long...long...long...Evolutionary Long time for "Soon All New Music Will Only Be Available As Music Downloads". I am old already, I can't wait that long. Choose to be Computer Audio Downloading's B-I-_-_-H, and you can only drag it down with you. Of course I don't want to see it dragged down by your apathy, Microsoft's, or anyone else's. Maybe the only thing that Downloading Music Selection really needs to succeed is " Just A Little Push ".
You are only pulling like your life depended on it- NOT THE SAME THING! Remain stagnate, and the next stop can only be down. Problem is you end up dragging the rest of us down with you. You want to steer this thing, we would appreciate it if you wouldn't steer us into a ditch! Apathy never accomplished anything, more or less a successful Audio Format Turnover. You expect a 100% success by doing what?
What is your point in this ridiculous expectation?
If this thread goes into syndication, do we get royalties? If so, it'd be a nice supplement to my retirement.

All the best,
"Blue Ray Audio is looking better by the minute". Oh yes Petty, you're right. GREAT selection on Blu Ray, clearly it is the format that is going to save this music vacuum you keep harping on. You win. Good luck with YOUR format.

Here's a little hint for you. Blu Ray, DVDa, SACD, CD...these aren't really any different from computer audio. Computers basically make them all the same format, they are all in the process of converging. But I'm sure you don't care because that doesn't fit with your ridiculous agenda.

After almost 1-1/2 years and 8 pages of posts, you still have not answered my question, so here it is yet again:

OTHER THAN COMPLAINING, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO ADDRESS YOUR CONCERNS? (even though I'm shouting this time, I'm still expecting no response, because the response is "nothing" are a farce).

They are YOUR concerns, not ours. Not sure why you keep on complaining to us.
06-28-13: Danoroo
"@ mentioned in an earlier post that you were looking for a DAC. I recently bought a new Cambridge Audio DAC Magic 100 on ebay for $315. It has 3 different types of digital inputs and sounds pretty good. It's not the last word in digital to analog conversion, but it isn't bad for the money."
Danoroo (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


After reading Pettyofficer's consistent reminders about the lack of downloadable music, I've decided to give up on this passing fad of computer audio and dacs. What good are all these old fashioned and ancient hardware devices going to be when there's never going to be much downloadable music software to use with them? I am so glad that Pettyofficer convinced me, and probably most others who have followed this thread for the past year, in the futility of buying into this new fangled computer audio balogne. I think I'm going to wait until music can be bought as large plastic cartridges that contains an album's worth of music stored on magnetic tape. I bet, with the current sophisticated level of technology and given a few major scientific breakthroughs, some genius could even invent a method that would switch tracks with the push of a button. I know I'm dreaming now, but could it be possible to have 8-tracks?

On the other hand, maybe this computer audio with downloadable music files really does have a bright future. I guess there are always dissenters and naysayers with the introduction of any new technology. Some people just don't adapt well to change. I'm sure we all remember from history classes how the other cavemen laughed at that egg-headed caveman, with the nerdy glasses, when he suggested replacing those square wheels with round ones.

Anyway, thanks Donoroo for the heads up on the Cambridge dac. I'll check it out if I can. I'm also looking at a few more expensive dacs: the Centrance models and the new Wadia dac (that had a good review in the latest Stereophile).


To be fair, you have a good point about the viability of computer audio if the supply of music downloads is limited. Hopefully, this will be rectified in the near future. I would think that the supply of downloadable music titles would increase going forward due to economics. Creating a digital master, and distributing it on demand to customers via the internet, has to be more economical and profitable than replicating thousands or even millions of cds, storing them, distributing them in the much less economical and less profitable traditional method and then hoping their sales at least roughly match their production numbers.

Hope you don't give up on the future just yet,

Sorry Guys. "Soon ALL NEW MUSIC will only be available as Music Downloads". You change ALL NEW MUSIC to ALL MUSIC then your Format will have something to offer everyone. Selective is what selective does. If your Download Format is that selective in type of Music, why would anyone select it??? Yes, we will have the option to select it. Blue Ray Audio is looking better by the minute. At least no one is trying to monopolize Music Selection with it. Looks like we will have a choice after all. Downloading won't provide Selection, we will just have to go someplace else for it.
You can be led by the nose with Computer Audio Downloading.
I am following where the Music Selection leads me. Downloads just don't have it to sell, and life is too short to be buying Download Music Selection SNAKE OIL/ MP3.
So Petty, what have you actually DONE to address your concerns? Other than complain, I mean. Please answer this simple question. If the answer is "nothing" (which I suspect it is) then you are nothing other than a crusty ol' fart...
the only thing wearing thin is you. Maybe like the 10,000 CDs you go on about you & this thread will disappear too.

You really are nuts. Your argument is stubbornly misguided. Just like your sunspot argument.

You are completely alone in your opinion. Don't you find that strange? I know you have not considered that you have got it wrong. You don't seem the type.

Good luck.
Model T argument wearing thin, and completely irrelevant to purchasing Music by your favorite Artist. Actually I don't listen to Records ( Can't afford a half dozen high End Audio Formats- not in this economy ). Last that I checked Records are making a comeback as 180 gram Re-issues. If you want to talk about cars why is it that the American Public is VERY interested in the quality of their Cars, but no one is interested in Sound Quality. What if half of the available cars were no longer available on the Market; because, the American Public had decided that they were no longer interested in the quality of their cars. Think there wouldn't be a big stink about the depreciation of car quality/selection? Heaven forbid anyone should ever complain about the same thing happening to anything else we purchase. This is simply a highly profitable shell game of hiding our Musical Archive from us. Why are we falling head over heels over it??? When Manufacturers play a shell game with Music Selection in the middle of an Audio Format Turnover- you know something stinks even if no one will admit it! Playing the sucker to this shell game advantages us how??? Two words come to mind- "FLY PAPER". Sticking with it only shows weakness. Absence of the demand for better Sound Quality ( And/Or better Music Selection ) can only show weakness. Firewalling ourselves in cement from ever changing from a position of that weakness benefits us how? Give me the 10,000 in CD, or give it to me in Music Downloads ( Hell, you can even decide ). Why are we even letting someone else decide on neither without so much as a whimper? "Soon All New Music Will Only Be Available As Music Downloads"- this holds who accountable in making sure that Music Selection will be available EVEN in support of Computer Audio? It appears that no one is responsible for insuring that Selection will be available in Downloads as other options are rapidly evaporating. "Soon All New Music.....", only gives cover to those using lack of Selection to boost their Profits. We, end up getting the short end of the stick in this process. Those Profits are not born in a vacuum, but can only come at our expense. This will most assuredly continue unless we hold Computer Audio Downloads feet to the fire. It is the only way to insure of Computer Audio's success ( And finally shut me the hell up on the issue of Selection Availability ). It is time for Computer Audio to either Stand up, or Shut up and get the hell out of the way of another Audio Format that WILL make our Musical Archive available. It is do, or die for Computer Audio N-O-W as it should be for ANY competing Audio Format. If not, then what is the point in competing? Who wins Computer Audio, or LP Re-issues? Here we are a dozen Responses later, all of them obviously avoiding answering the question. Is it so hard to answer that question? WHY??? Someone had better answer it, because the future of our Music depends on it! A New Music Selection Audio Format that purposely tries to minimize Music Selection Availability! $$$ I-N-C-R-E-D-I-B-L-E $$$
PO, are you are record collector? If so then revel in the joy
of looking for rare music. If not shut up. You and uour 10,000 records that have been deleated. Like its something new! Records have their time.

Would you say the same about cars? They stopped making the model T ford and every showroom I go into only has new cars. Why did they stop making the model T? I really want one.
Guys, been there, done that for the last year (8 pages). You simply cannot claim "Soon All New Music Will Only Be Available As Music Downloads" when NOT everything is available as Music Download, AND 10,000 CD Selections are currently NOT AVAILABLE. You want me to list all 10,000-nuts! I don't know ALL 10,000, I just know that I can no longer check them out because they are "NO LONGER IN PRINT",
and "NOT AVAILABLE AS DOWNLOAD". There are way more CD Selection missing than is currently being provided as Selection in Download. I don't want to name/ have you find
one, or two selections (Download or CD). I want access to those 10,000 EITHER as a CD or a MUSIC DOWNLOAD Period!!!
I don't care about one particular selection, I want to select from the 10,000. The particular Title is irrelevant
when I want 10,000 in Music Title Archive back on the Market. I complain, because you are perfectly satisfied in permanently leaving those 10,000 OFF of the market. There are no plans on making those missing 10,000 available as a Music Download. The current number of available Downloads tell you all that you need to know. You are worried about one single Title while I am saying good-by to a whole Archive of Music. If you intend on going "Soon All New Music
Will Only Be Available As Music Download" then do it right by making ALL Music Currently missing as CD available as a Music Download. The numbers scream Gap! Void!- And YOU KNOW IT!!! FILL THE VOID as required when implementing a New Audio Format, or your New Audio Format is simply NO GOOD! It is the apathy cemented in concrete that is dead set in growing that void way larger than it currently is. Nobody here even demands better performance in Music Selection for Music Downloads. You will be waiting 20 years from now still waiting for it to happen, and I won't have anything left available on CD. We just do WITHOUT any Audio Format then??? There is NO PLAN for rapid increase in Music Selection in Music Downloads. It is just like HDTV, still waiting after 10 years for larger increase in HD Selection.
Rocks grow older faster. Oh, but everyone promised us a Holy
Grail in Selection. This time we hold these promises to the fire, and say "Show Us First"! You say "Shut your trap", and we still say "Show Us First"- because we both know you still don't have anything to show for it. You won't have anything to show for it in the near future. I desperately need you to have something to show for it- my Music depends on it! You are the one fighting this tooth, and nail! I am into listening to Music. If I was into pulling Teeth I would have been a Dentist. We are not Dentists, we are supposed to be Music Listeners. Sorry, I don't find the sight of blood very Musical. You must be frustrated that more Music Download Selection can't be produced any faster
( And Anyone Who Complains About It Is The Enemy That Needs To Be Silenced ). Silence will end up being the ONLY Music left to listen to, unless you "CHANGE" the direction of the trend NOW!!! I cannot change the Trend by myself when EVERYONE is perfectly satisfied with the current Trend, and I cannot convince anyone otherwise. I guess we ALL build
"BOMB SHELTERS" of Musical Archive to survive the DROUGHT
( NUTS!- THIS IS NOT WHAT I WANTED ). What the hell- who needs Music anyways, right?

you belong to an era that has passed. For better or for worse its all changed. I would say in most ways for the better. Just image listening to a cassette again.

DSD & DXD files now starting to be released as downloads on a few specialist sites. All you have to do is search. Now the word "search" may fill you with dread, but luckily that playback machine called a computer probably has something called google. So you type & it searches.
"I already have an acknowledgement of the problem, but see no solution (or desire) to correct it."

Um - OK - then let me ask this. You are the only one complaining but you have "no desire to correct it". So WTF are you complaining about then? Do you really think WE will try to correct it if we're not even complaining in the first place? Heck, goodness knows I have had my fair share of problems and challenges with computer audio - and everything in life for that matter - but you had better believe that I have addressed these problems and tried to correct them. Much more productive than complaining and being contrarian for a year.

Honestly, you're just complaining for the sake of complaining. When asked to list all this wonderful music you can't get, you can't even come up with one example. NOT EVEN ONE!

You started this tread complaining about SOUND QUALITY - and have cycled through a litany of other complaints - some related, many unrelated. More than a year has gone by, 8 pages of complaints...yet you have done nothing productive to try and correct it yourself.

I'm glad you finally came clean on this. Anyone who complains for years about something but doesn't even lift a finger to correct it is a loser, plain and simple.

Look here's the simple truth:

In this day and age, a simple google search can get you whatever music you seek, so shut your trap about that already!
Last couple of my Responses have been rejected for being too
"inflammatory". I was hoping to end this Thread once, and for all. I will only say that for most Music you can still pretty much get it via CD, or Music Downloads. You guys are the ones who claim that "it takes a little bit more digging" to find it. I came here for an argument to reverse that trend. No reason to jump through smaller, and smaller hoops to find your Music. Your answer was to build "Bomb Shelters" of Musical Archive in preparation. How is this NOT inconsistent with what you claim now? As diplomatic as I can possibly respond "Please kindly get your stories straight". My missing Music is inconsequential, I got it!
I do listen, but you have to start listening to how you sound from this end. Most of your answers agree that Music Selection is a little harder to come by due to Computer Audio. It is not an "Answer" agreeing with me, that I want. I already have an acknowledgement of the problem, but see no solution (or desire) to correct it. I don't see an alternative Audio Music Format without the Music Selection.
If you do, THAT leaves a vacuum. You can't fill that vacuum by tossing mud at me. If that is your answer, why would anyone listen? Finding Downloads is NOT the problem, finding
my Music available as a Download IS the problem. It is just not a problem to you. Maybe YOU should do a little bit more listening? "Soon All New Music Will Only Be Available As Music Downloads" means cutting my Music Selection off at the knees. If you cut me don't I bleed? Get the Download Selection up, then we will consider it. What is this crap of desperately trying to avoid it at all costs? Are you afraid of Computer Audio going under? Are you terrified of having too much Download Music Selection available? How is that....B-A-D??? Please explain, and don't try to distract from an Explanation by claiming that "I Don't Listen". This is wearing thin as a tool to avoid really answering the question. I see our Music Selection going out on a limb. I see us going out on a limb over Computer Audio with no research support from Computer Manufacturers over Sound Quality. Customer Support being unaccountably supplied by other there anything this Audio Format does right AS an Audio Format in context of what other Audio Formats have provided? Apparently WE do all of the production work, and we pay through the nose for the priviledge of the added tasking. Is it asking too much for Computer Audio Downloads to supply us the Music Selection that we are accustomed to? Cut us some slack somewhere! Show
some Mercy, instead of being "Mr. Freeze" with our Music Archives. Freezing us out? THAT is your Answer? Sorry if I have a tendency to say "Right Back At You"! That is being responsive, NOT being inflammatory (A Little Cold for That
don't you think?). You tell me when we will "Thaw" out the Music Selection Availability in Computer Audio Downloads. I am not buying "Ice Cubes" to use for Audio in the meantime.
They don't fit in my ears very well, and they are just a little uncomfortable. I diplomatically must return them to you, with all due respect. Give me Music instead, if you please!
Petty we have been answering your "questions" - you just are not listening. These are not "pot shots" as you put it. As Chad stated - you came here for an argument, and an argument you found.

Thanks in advance for no longer responding. We win. You lose.

Very sorry that you can't seem to find music. We can!!!
@ mentioned in an earlier post that you were looking for a DAC. I recently bought a new Cambridge Audio DAC Magic 100 on ebay for $315. It has 3 different types of digital inputs and sounds pretty good. It's not the last word in digital to analog conversion, but it isn't bad for the money.

Why not just buy CDs and transfer them to an HD?

If you are finding downloads so difficult to find, as has been mentioned
a few hundred times to you now, your computer will play anything you like. unlike any other source in history.
This is the ONLY Audio Format switchover where we have less Music available NOW than we had before the switchover began.
That which is available now ( Non-MP3 Downloading ) apparently has to be searched for through the ever expanding four corners of the Internet. In other words "LOTTSA LUCK", in finding it! This is "Russian Roulet", or "Flipping a Coin" at finding access to your Musical Archive. Everyone admits as much that one has to " Do a Lot More Digging " to find their Music T-O-D-A-Y ( Than Yesterday Perhaps? ). This situation becomes compounded daily due to this becoming the acceptable trend,
thereby exponentially expanding a huge gap in missing Music Archive. You cannot say "Soon All New Music will ONLY be available as Music Downloads" without also subtracting a lot of Music in the process. This will limit Selection, and with it, limited access to many potential High Fidelity Releases. Not talking High Sound Quality in general, but in numbers of High Sound Quality Releases. The Numbers will always hit a ceiling, the limited Selection of Downloads available. The impression is that we have more High Fidelity Releases available today as Downloads, but one cannot argue against the severe limited availability of Music Download Selection. To say one does not affect the other denies reason. This situation will continue so long as: 1.Music Manufacturers Profit from the situation. 2.Computer Audio Users deny the situation. 3.Computer Manufacturers don't care about the situation. 4.Computer Manufacturers refuse (See no profit) in continuing research in development in Computer Audio 5.So long as Computer Manufacturers (No one) will take the lead in corporate development of Computer Audio.
Any one of these would be enough to unravel Computer Audio from becoming the Primary Audio Format. Without direction/ research/development/investment in increased selection/standardizing of format sound quality/accountability to customers- this cannot avoid failure lacking any plan for success. This is what the lack of these things add up to. An ad hock audio Format cannot succeed without SOME input, and no one willing to put forth any input into it. Absurd to expect maximum results out of it. Failure is NOT what I wish! I need (unfortunately) the success of Computer Audio to provide one of many sources
for necessary access to my Music Archive. One Format simply will not cut it- and this is unfortunately the situation that Computer Audio has created with limited selection in other Audio Formats. Computer Audio has to succeed if Music Audio listening will succeed. This will not happen unless something drastically changes with the situation of Computer Audio N-O-W!!! "Soon All New Music will NOT be available on anything" is the risk of making Music Listening Redundant. Don't take it for granted! Only way it doesn't become redundant is if steps are taken N-O-W to make sure it doesn't become redundant. Lack of steps by Computer Manufacturers listed above (And Attitude), and attitude of everyone involved must change to prevent failure. Best way to constructively create failure is to apathetically do nothing. One cannot possibly expect success such as "Soon All New Music Will Only Available As Music Downloads" without No Ones Input! That has to be Input from User as well as Manufacturer. Everyone's Input, or No Ones success. Success IS that dependent! This is the last response that I am Inputting onto this Thread. I wish everyone luck (Sincerely) in finding your Music in the near future without having to build "bomb shelters" of Music Archives. Such impending doom is not necessary, ridiculous, not beneficial to anyone, and should be avoided. As usual it is entirely up to you if we go down that road. I have spoke my peace- Thanks for listening, and I am out of here!
I expect insults, and negative responses to this response. Any chance that someone might come up with something constructive to add? Well, I tried!!! Fire away because I will no longer be Responding. Last Free Shots for The Entire House are On Me!
Nonoise- Yet I can count, and CD Manufacturers can confirm-
and verify the same numbers. It is not about mapping, but simple addition- and subtraction. Math remains the same in any territory. It is that simple. Why do you try to make it so difficult??? "soon All New Music will only be available as Music Downloads" means subtracting Audio Formats. It means subtracting Music Selection, and subtracting Music Archive. Downloading Format is adding way less than what is being subtracted, which leaves a negative left over. Historically other Format switchovers have left an overlap
during switchover, which leaves a positive left over. This
positive leftover comes at a cost to the Manufacturer. A negative left over is only there to boost the profits of
Manufacturers at your expense ( Music Selection ). Nonoise-
I know that you are smarter than this. Do you really need someone to draw you a Map to understand the simple mathematical concept of addition, and subtraction? I began this Thread, stopped using it many times, and got dragged back in again. "Should the Sound Quality of Computer Audio be improved" is my premise. It is also my premise that the increase in Music Selection in any Audio Format CAN ( Not Always ) improve the Selection in High Fidelity Audio Releases. First would be to improve the Selection available, then improve the Sound Quality. This was done with LP, and CD only after a large selection of either was available. Now you want to change all of the Audio Market rules for convenience, and up Manufacturer Profit at everyone's expense. It is not unreasonable for me to access what that expense might be in having limited availability to my Music. I am not worked up about it, I am very concerned about it. I become extremely concerned due to the complete lack of concern about this problem. Due to this, it can only become a self-defeating Prophecy based on attitude ( YES- attitude DOES count! ). I care when someone has to go without their Music. I care when someone is being forced to jump through hoops to gain access to their Music. I care especially when, and because, no one else will! I don't care about the 5 year old that can Download blindfolded, I care about the 50 year old that doesn't have the time to learn a new complicated multi-tasking Audio Format. He only has so much longer to live- cut him some slack before you cut his old Format, and maybe his only access to Music. Of course go ahead and throw Grandpa off of the bridge if you want, just don't make excuses for it-
or call it convenience.
PettyOfficer, it was your well being I was concerned about. You're much too worked up over this. The map in your head isn't corresponding to the actual territory you live in, hence, this thread.

All the best,
Nonoise- something serious like you're going to have a heart attack? Are you that sensitive?
Hfisher3380- I work for a living. Other people pay me for my savvy. In my Music Enjoyment, being savvy means doing less searching for Music so I can spend more of my valuable time actually listening to it. The Music Format serves me, because I am the one paying for the service- not the other way around as you would prefer. Paying to service the Audio Format is hardly "Savvy".
Chadeffect- A whole lot of noise signifying nothing.
Noble100- Ditto!
Hfisher3380- Ditto again!
Swampwalker- I can't help thinking that you would prefer a watered down version uh Wil'Turkey. Why settle for a watered down Music Selection of Computer Audio Downloading? You would be really upset if they watered down your drink, because "No one is really interested in the quality of anything anymore". It is lame to apply that kind of standard to anything we purchase, including Music.
No hidden agendas here folks. Just a guy who sees a lot less Music Selection/ Archive available for purchase. This is the price your Format imposes with "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads". That can only mean no LPs, and no CDs. You are trying to argue out of both sides of your mouth around that stated goal. I clearly see the contradiction, and my Music is suffering because of it. Ten Thousand Music Releases "No Longer in Print in CD", and "Not Available as Music Downloads". This is not imaginary either, and easily confirmable with Manufacturers of CDs. Even Wil'Turkey cain't cure that, watered down or not! I am talking to the right people, because this is the standard you set/ accept for Computer Audio Downloads. My argument is that I set a higher bar for my Music Formats. Your lower bar is just unacceptable for my needs. Why must I lower the bar in Music Archive/Availability/Selection to meet your "Convenience" Standard? Computer Audio can, and should be made to produce a better Service in Audio Format Downloading BEFORE Selection is eliminated in all other Formats. I am certainly worth it- and I believe everyone else here is worth it too! No one should have to go without their Music, and there is something seriously wrong if any New Audio Format requires it by prematurely eliminating selection in the previous Audio Format. It sounds a little bit like extortion holding Music Archive as hostage, and thereby forcing everyone to accept the New seriously limited Selection of a New Audio Format as the only option left available on the Market. That is if you are really serious about "Soon All New Music will only be available as Music Downloads". If that is a joke I am not laughing!
I can't help thinking that something beyond computer downloading is upsetting him.
Ain't nuthin' that 3 fingers uh Wil' Turkey cain't cure!!!

Great reference. I remember that Monty Python skit well and it's an apt analogy to this thread.

I wish Pettyofficer well but I can't help thinking that something beyond computer downloading is upsetting him. Wife/girlfriend left him?.....Dog died? I'm not sure but it may be something like that. But it's none of my business, of course, so I'll just wish him well.

Am I missing something here? This is like the Monty python argument clinic sketch. " Did you come here for the 1minute argument or the 5 minute argument?"

" that's not an argument, you are just contradicting me...No I'm not"

PO, get some treatment.
Petty, you obviously have some pretty serious issues. The problem here is that - as I said somewhere around page 2 or 3 - you're complaining to the wrong people. Most of us here are pretty happy with computer audio and the direction things are heading. Most of us here are savvy enough to get pretty much any music we want, in whatever format we want, and with generally good to excellent sound quality. You on the other hand seem to be incapable.

I would suggest - and I hope you'll listen to me this time - that you take your complaints to those who might be able to do something about it. Or perhaps better still, use your engineering background to help you figure some stuff out. Because I think it is pretty clear that the people here are not going to be able to cure what ails you.

Computer audio definitely ain't perfect - nobody is suggesting that. But the depth and breadth of your problems clearly exceeds our capacity to help you.

Best of luck!
I see. It is a simple case of disbelieving my lying eyes.
"Name the music you cannot find", from the top the people who manufacture, and sell CDs tell me that there are 10,000 out of print. They are lying, you are telling me the truth. I would like to try and listen to anyone of those 10,000. I
would like to try and listen to something that I haven't listened to before. You can't "Name" something that you haven't listened to, or have yet to discover. Now that it is gone, "No longer in Print", and "Not Available as Download" the name is pretty much gone. Nice way of hiding the identity of the victim by dissolving the carcass with acid. Then we play "You can't identify someone from the muck- give me a name"! Can't provide a name, then there was never anyone there. You have got to be kidding! This is nothing more than the old "Switch and Bait". A five year old could see through it!
One question I keep asking that no one is even listening to the question (More or less listening to the answer). Are you guys terrified of answering? Where is my Music Archive that I used to have access to, but no longer have with Music Downloads? Why can nobody add? Ten thousand CDs gone, hardly 10,000 Music Downloads (Not MP3) to replace them.
The Numbers are lying to me, my own eyes are lying to me, CD manufacturers are lying to me, and those that sell CDs are lying to me. Even those who say "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads" are lying about intent to further permanently eliminate CD Music Archive without replacing it! Gee, the only guys in the universe telling the truth are you. How long do you guys intend on carrying on this charade? There is NO INTENT on creating a Music Archive of Music Downloads available. There never was, there never will be, and 10,000 "Out Of Print" therefore U-N-R-I-P-P-A-B-L-E CDs is proof of that! Then there will be the next 10,000, and the next 10,000 after that. Again I can add, but you tell me that the numbers are lying to me. Boy, that is some tool that creates this alternate reality.
Chadeffect: Is the Computer your Tool, or are you a Tool of the Computer being forced to accept an ever shrinking selection of Music Archive? You can't establish
that "Soon All New Music will only be available as Music Downloads" without tossing out a whole hell of a lot of Music. The only alternative is that most of our Music Archive becomes available as Music Downloads. We all know that this is not going to happen in our lifetimes. Enough of the Bull, it is going to be severely shrinking selection from here on out. You are getting rid of 10 times more (CDs) than you are replacing (Downloads). I'm supposed to pretend that I am stupid, and not know where this train is heading? I do know that you guys can see where it is heading. I don't buy that you actually believe this illusion. This shell game of trying to find your Music. All of this "Snake Oil" of massive amounts of Music Downloads just around the bend. You guys have got to be smarter than this. Does "Let The Buyer Beware" even ring a bell? Are you even capable of applying THAT critical eye towards Computer Audio, instead of becoming another tool of Computer Audio? A machine dictates what type of Music you will be allowed to listen to by eliminating what is available at a constantly steady rate. Wow, where can I get me one of those (drool, drool)! You guys really want your pound of flesh in the Music we used to be able to enjoy. Once CD is gone where is the next pound of flesh coming from, Computer Audio or LP? LP is looking a little weak right now, and something is licking its chops. That isn't me, try looking behind you- but you never do! Go ahead and hide in the dark so you can't see what is really eating you- if that is your idea. Sell me on this? REALLY!!! You guys have got to really hate others who enjoy their Music, especially if you want to permanently take it away from them. This isn't an Audio Format Turnover, more like a slaughter house. I am supposed to be stupid, and allow myself to be led to the slaughter. Boy you guys get testy when I raise a ruckus about it- GET OVER YOURSELVES! I am the one being led to slaughter, you think that I don't know it?
PO, the computer is a tool to empower you. If you cannot see that best go live in a cave. Yet again you have not paid any attention to the posts saying the opposite to you. I see no one else complaining like you. Haven't you noticed? The real bottom line? A real bottom more like.

Never before has a single device allowed you to play, copy, edit, restore, convert, archive, stream your music. Let alone across multiple formats and probably into formats not even thought of yet.

This is the part I don't understand. You go on about loss but I see no loss. If a CD was made then you can have it or find it. Probably the same for any record or tape of whatever too?

Name the music you cannot find. Tell me which CD you cannot lay your hands on? If you cannot find the download you will find the CD. As for really rare vinyl well no change there. Because if you could not find that record back then you still would have to search as you do today. What is different?
" In fact I would add that many rare 78 recordings have been saved by being digitized!"

I can vouch for that. I've recorded all my family's old 78 RPM records from the 20's and 30's to CD and then ripped the CDs to my music server along with all the rest. I picked up an old Admiral ceramic cart table that plays 78s for $10 at a yard sale to do it. Next best thing to having an authentic restored old Victrola to play these on. Maybe someday. I know of several local sources that restore and sell Victrolas.

Its all doable. Takes a little will and know how mainly. Tougher for old coots like PEtty and me in general, but I am fairly tech savoy for my age, so not a problem.
Petty, we're not trying to sell you anything, nor are we trying to restrict your choices of music or format. You're the one who came here asking questions and not listening to the answers.

To put in plain and simple: you're wrong.

Hope you can understand that.
Guys, it is simple math! How can you possibly get it wrong? At one time ( Prior to Computer Audio becoming popular ) you could get just about anything on CD. Today it is very questionable getting it on CD, and any question at all about not being available as download. What has changed? Access to our Music Archive is now being strangled when before it wasn't. Coincidence this happens when Computer Audio starts replacing CD? That is the problem: Computer Audio ISN'T keeping up with the job of replacing Music Archive of CD. It is NOT even close!
All of you even admit as much and offer nothing as a solution. "Just suck it up, and live without your Music" -
THAT IS NOT A SOLUTION! It is pathetic, not to mention the pathetic performance of Computer Audio Downloading to produce an available Music Archive. What little is available remains hidden being splintered across the Internet.
"I am not sure that this will definitely happen...", so why risk even permanently losing more Musical Archive than we already currently have lost? We didn't used to have to "Track Down" anything. Why now are we being forced to? Why this particular interference with this particular audio Format of Computer Audio Downloads? This is "CONVENIENCE" being blocked from our Music? Sane people don't drastically execute current access to existing Music Archive for a few "scraps" of Music Selection in a New Format. Tens of thousands of LP Releases didn't suddenly become "Out of Print" when the first few dozen CD selections first came out. CD was tasked to provide a decent selection BEFORE we started switching over.
Just as an observation: I think you Guys are afraid
that Computer Audio Downloads will not be able to live up to the task of providing a decent Musical Archive- not now, not in the next 10 years. "I am not saying this will definitely happen...", I am supposed to risk all of my future access to Music Archive on this??? This doesn't benefit me, who does it benefit? Give up my Music on a permanent basis to save you a few seconds to access your own? We are now in the business of sacrificing our Music on a permanent basis instead of collecting it? This is what you are selling me, and you can't understand why I am not buying it? If I were to "Buy it", I would like to be able to
"Buy it", and not have it "Unavailable as Download"! None of your suggestions gets anyone any closer to being there.
All of your responses rely on persuading someone who simply
"Cannot Add". Unfortunately I can! You can dance around it, and insult me all you want: "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads" simply means a whole hell of a lot less Music available to everyone than previously.
Your Audio Format means the exact same thing. Call me stupid for being aware of what your forcing me to give up- THAT IS THE REAL BOTTOM LINE!!! I wouldn't put up with you Guys one more second, and wade thru the mud flinging, if I didn't really care about Music evaporating on a permanent basis- with nothing physically replacing it except "Snake Oil", "Hot air", and "Fantasy". Real CONVENIENT, just not that RELIABLE in producing Music Selection. I guess the silence of a vacuum can be convenient- unless you really love Music! Are you a Music Lover, or a Computer lover to the exclusion of Music? If not, then what are you? I am simply a Music Lover first when it comes to my Computer requiring me to exclude Music. Sorry if it offends everyone.
Don't flatter yourselves, you make very poor "Used Car" Salesmen. Maybe you should sell shoes instead of Audio Formats. You would make more money that way!
Mapman has said it PO! Unlike any other time in history it is probably easier to track down limited availability records & CDs. Whether out of print or not. You can worry about the number 10,000 but its normal.

You could type "out of print and not available as download" if you like, but most sane people would go to specialist sites or contact collectors with a more focused question. Maybe something like " I'm looking for deleted catalogue from Sony jazz record labels" etc.

I find it mind boggling you have this idea it's a format issue. As I have said a thousand times to you now the format is IRRELEVANT. You take which ever rare recording you find & store it digitally. Done. Saved. No sunspots.

As for the market, its how it has always been. Some recordings survive some don't, some get rereleased on compilations and licensed and so on. Do detective work.

But how is this effecting you? Do you want to listen to every record just because it exists?

If you were REALLY the kind of person who CARED about this, you would have built an archive like some people i know and become a resource for rare & difficult to find records. There are many online. Some not totally legal for obvious reasons but enthusiasts. There are some stunning classical archives to be found.

As someone mentioned in an earlier post " what about 78rpm?" In fact I would add that many rare 78 recordings have been saved by being digitized! Many having the noise removed and cleaned of pops and scratches too. How could you complain? You complain because you have made little effort to look or understand by the sounds of it. Chicken or egg indeed? No chicken or egg, no effort, no listening, no idea. Plenty of ranting though.

I find your arguments uninformed. You deflect and never answer or acknowledge good information posted to and for you. But I don't even detect you are playing games. I feel you actually believe what you are posting which is even more worrying!

If you ACTUALLY want to get an definitive answer. Lets do this, put your questions as bullet points rather than long winded rants without paragraphs. I.e Should I worry archiving my CDs to harddrive makes these back ups vulnerable to sunspot damage and data loss? Then you will get clear answers. Then you could reply by saying "Thank you. I have read this xxxxx which seems to prove..." Then we could have a clear adult discussion.

Just wanted to add on to what Mapman said and your concern over the 10,000 out of print cds. If downloads are the future, I would think the copy rights owners of those 10,000 cds would be very tempted to rerelease many of these as downloads if there is enough demand. And these downloads may be higher resolution than the original cds depending on how the master was recorded. I'm not saying this will definitely happen but I think the financial incentive may be too strong to resist in many cases.

Hope this eases some of your concerns
In practice, I think it is easier to find out of print material these days than ever. And for reasonable cost. You just gotta go used in many cases via ebay or similar.

Out of print is out of print. A lot of old stuff with any current market value does get re-released, in some cases as original package (often extended in some way) or in some totally new package, like "the essential so and so...", etc. Its really not a problem in practice I find so I will not loose any sleep. Most of the old out of print stuff that I must have I already do. In cases otherwise, I have not had problems finding it. Yawn....
Petty - such is life and it has nothing to do with anyone in this chat group.

Whom do you blame for the thousands of analogue recordings that never made it onto CD? For the 78rpm records that never survived to see the light of day as LPs? This is just the natural order of things. If there is demand then there is money to be made. If there is money to be made then the product will be manufactured and sold.

Simple. Any 5-year old could understand it. That's the world we live in. You just can't handle the truth...
Mapman: Finally, after 8 pages of diatribe, someone acknowledges our Music Archive IS drying up/ being purposely eliminated- Thank-you!!! You have done your calculations well. Now you just need to expand your estimation to include the other 600 million of us who probably listen to Music Archive that is different from your selection. Let's say you discover a Music Artist that you weren't aware of ( say the 80's or 90's ), and you don't have any of his releases. Let's say he is one of those 10,000 "No Longer In Print"/ "Not Available As Download"- and you really like his Music. Maybe you heard one of his selections on the Radio. His MUSIC IS GONE! It got swept away with "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads". "All New Music..." does NOT
mean "All Music" period. Now what if there are a handful of Artists ( Same thing ), or a couple dozen?
As far as building up a stash before the well runs dry. I did not have to do this switching from LP to CD, nor on any other Audio Format switch-over. There is something seriously wrong here having to do this with this particular
switch-over to Computer Audio. I am not the one at fault! It is how this switch-over is being handled- with complete disregard for preserving Musical Archive. Nothing that I, or anyone else can do about the already 10,000 missing. Pretty much the same for the next 10,000, or the next 10,000 after that! Why are we being forced to build "Bomb Shelters" to try and save our Musical Archive??? Who is bombing our Musical Archive, for what profit, and why?
"Eyes Wide Open", or is this "Eyes Wide Shut"? You decide-
and give me a clue as to direction if you please ( LP or Computer Audio )? Hurry before the first bombs start to drop, if you wouldn't mind. Call me crazy, but missing Music IS A PROBLEM!!! Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that they are not out to get you. Hit me with your best shot, and fire away. Ask anyone, I am just a nut high on drugs (Rhetorical )!
I did some calculations and estimate it would take me 5-7 years or more just to listen to every recording I already own once. Then on top of that there are hundreds of digital music sources externally like internet radio stations and music services that I can go to as well if I get bored. And it all sounds pretty darn good!

So at least when the music available dries up I should still be set for life with stuff to listen to. It's my proverbial "bomb shelter" as it were.

Petty, if you have not already, better get busy and build up your stash too before the well runs dry! :^)