So many great golden era DD tables out there, what do you recommend for $1000?
Pretty much as the title says. Have been looking for a while for a decent DD table to add to my lot. Have bought a few lower end ones and ultimately been dissapointed. Now I know there were/ are literally hundreds of choices from the Japanese Golden era of DD tables. Looking for suggestions from actual owners of solid DD tables up to about $1000 . I have read and read but nothing substitutes for real experience. This would likely not be my primary table, my Garrard 401 has that position for now.
@uberwalz That’s what I’m sayin’. The plinth was cheap and the two arm wands were just as bad. If you are looking for a serious table within your budget there are two Kenwood KD-550s with tonearms included listed on ebay . I have owned the Kenwood KD- 500 with a MMT arm and a KD-600 with a Grace 747 arm. You will not go wrong with these Kenwoods! Here ya go! https://liquidaudio.com.au/kenwood-kd-500-kd-550-direct-drive-turntable/
Yogi I had read on audiokarma that the plinth was crappy but could be braced and mass loaded to increase performance substantially. But if rest of it is sub standard as well? I saw both kd550 on eBay but not much info out there on those either.
best-groove, Don't you think the "engine and electronics" ARE the DNA of any turntable, including the DP80? IMO, the major deficiency of the original product was exactly its plinth (and tonearm, but that's a different argument). By re-doing the substructure from A to Z, Peter has transformed the guts of the DP80 into a true high end product. Which sadly is out of reach of the OP's budget. If you're just objecting to the cost of the re-done DP80, that's too bad. I'd love to have one of the PBN versions, if I were not already more than supplied with turntables. But as to the notion that one could not find an original DP80 for $1000 or less, I am a little dubious. A few years ago, when I thought about selling my completely "done" sample, I got little interest at around $1200, indicating that the market could not bear that price. With patience and a little luck, I think it could be done. If the OP wants a tonearm too for his price limit, then all bets are off.
The original DP-80 plinth is pretty decent, it does not looks like a cheap plinth from that era, the finishing is nice, the color is nice. Much better than any Victor stock plinth for example (imo). Adding AT-616 pneumatic footers is a must for such high quality machine. No questions that DP-80 is a nice DD turntable, but i just want to say that stock plinth is also very nice (if the condition is NOS like mine). Here is an image from the manual with DA-401 tonearm, i was shocked how good this arm can reproduce music on my Luxman with Grado XTZ. Quickly became my favorite tonearm for high-ish compliance MI/MM carts. The only problem is a price tag: with some nice tonearm on original plinth it can be $2-3k easily for complete Denon turntable in perfect condition.
best-groove, Don't you think the "engine and electronics" ARE the DNA of any turntable, including the DP80?
Surely, but in this way it completely distorts what the Denon wanted to convey to the supporters of the brand. I do not doubt that the new project is better than the Denon project of 40 years ago, but the price to pay would be high and a likely resale so heavily modified could be long and difficult in finding a new owner or switching to a second hand.
Dear @yogiboy : I think that in some ways all audio items are ( in good shape ) audio toys and from this point of view the 60L is an audio toy and very good Denon TT.
and this toy weigth is 13kg. Till today I do not knew a bad Denon " toy ".
Check in that link the " alto scan " brochure and you will know what that " toy " can offer to any one. Maybe is time that you could recovery it from that basement. Was years ago when you gave it to your syster but through the time I can think you made some up-grades to your system that could make a difference in your way of thinking.
@lewm : specs? well you have to make your home work. Anyway specs can’t tel us the whole history but when you are comparing against other Denon items has a meaning that the item it’s not a low-fi one.
@uberwaltz found out a second unit on ebay at even lower price, you can buy it and can make some $$$$ in the re-sales.. As I said before, Denon never disappointed me.
best-groove, So mainly you object to the cost of the PBN version of the DP80 and to the probability that when you go to sell it, you won't make a profit or get your original investment back, which is also true of almost any new audio product. That's OK, but it's not the point.
Lewm. Pretty sure if you listed your dp80 right now at $1200 it would be sold before you had closed your browser! The only ones around right now are all in Japan and $1000 just for the motor, then need a plinth and arm so honestly at least $1700 I think.
Uber, As a true Victor Fanboy who owns both the TT-81 and TT-101.....let me introduce you to the VICTOR QL-A7 which I bought for my son and which I compared directly alongside both my TT-81 and TT-101. Both the TT-81 and TT-101 incidentally, have Bi-Directional Servo Control-FACT. For much less than $1000....you can have one of the best sounding DD Turntables from the great Japanese Victor Company....INCLUDING a very fine arm. Take your pick HERE Good luck.
I’ve owned my Denon DP-1200 new now since mid-later 1980’s. They are very affordable and I still am very happy with it. Had it RE-capped about a yr ago, that’s a pretty incredible service record.
Hey, it just occurred to me, I am the original owner of a 1977 Technics SL-1700. Still with its original Stanton 681EEE cartridge- complete with its original wood box and paperwork! The dust cover is gone, the cantilever is bent, the bearing is dry- and it still sounds better than a CD player! Wasn't going to sell it but you've been looking so long thought I would help you out. So go ahead. Make me an offer!
Of course there is.....🤗 Just Download the Service Manual for both from Vinyl Engine.... It's best to obtain technical information directly from the Manufacturer rather than Vintage Knob or Vinyl Engine which are often in error....both with each other and with reality....🥴
I assume the main difference between the qla7 and ql7 is just that one is auto the other is manual.
I think you assume correctly Uber. My son loves the feature on his QL-A7 which at the end of each record, lifts the tonearm and stops the platter. It doesn't return the arm to rest so there's no real complications to go wrong....😃
I have a Pioneer QUARTZ PLL Electronic Full Automatic PL-630 DD turntable and I upgraded the headshell wires with ortofon LW-7N headshell wires.
I also upgraded the tonearm wire with CARDAS tonearm wire and the RCA turntable cables with KAB/CARDAS Spiral Air Litz cable with ETI RCA connectors.
This thing is built like a tank at 27 pounds and in mint condition and is very quiet when playing lp’s or 45’s. I’ve been meaning to put it up for sale for about 4 months now but just haven’t got around to it yet.
This guy always has a few nice DD tables. He always recaps them and goes over all the electronics so you get a nice machine. Worth checking him out.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRwg7OGjAQM
Thanks, Halcro, for chiming in with your opinion on the TT81 vs TT101. I really like my TT101, but I have no way to know how the two compare.
Uber, After deciding at one point to sell the DP80, because I wasn't using it (and because who needs 5 turntables?), and then not being able to get much money for it, I just recently put it back into operation. I was not as fond of the DK300 plinth as Chak apparently is, so I replaced it with a 65-lb slate slab, and I mounted a Triplanar on the slab to work with the DP80. (Mine came with a DA307 tonearm, which is sitting in a shoebox somewhere.) I recently put the DP80 ensemble back into regular use for MM cartridges (or other high output types). So now I am back up to 3 turntables feeding my upstairs system. And 2 for the basement system. I know this is nuts, and I fear for my heirs who will not even know how to run all the equipment. One problem that arises is I cannot keep 5 cartridges happy; they like to be used often to sound best.
A comment on the "bi-directional servo": The TT101 (and the TT81, if Halcro says so) certainly have exceptional speed control, but when JP Jones eventually fixed my TT101 and got it working, his comments on the "bi-directional"-ness of the servo were of a skeptical nature, if I recall correctly. (One would think that the term indicates the platter is not only speeded up, if too slow, but also retarded, if its running too fast. Not sure that really happens.) I cannot recall the specifics; maybe JP will comment if he is around. Anyway, it doesn't matter, because the point is that the system works superbly although very electrically complex.
(Mine came with a DA307 tonearm, which is sitting in a shoebox somewhere.)
Don't underestimate that arm to be considered junk. It is an excellent arm with a still low price on the market, it has not suffered the costly folly of many vintage pieces and is better mechanically and constructively than vintage arms that are now overrated and sold for hundreds and hundreds of dollars. I don't want to mention names so as not to hurt the sensitivity of some owners but I want to give a small example of many positive features of this tonearm (there are several): the rubber that separates the barrel from the counterweight of the DA307 even after 40 years from its construction is perfect if you look at it. does not crumble, does not break and is still perfectly elastic .... how much rubber used in audio products is so durable?
You're right Lewm in your recollection of JP Jones' skepticism about Victor's Patented Bi-Directional Servo...... And then Hiho (I think) produced all the World Patent Documents for it which floored JP who said he needed to read all the documents to try and understand the principles. He never reported back...🤔 I don't think enough documentation exists for the significance of Victor's Bi-Directional Servo Control to be appreciated. It is the exact opposite of Technic's design which utilises a powerful motor with huge torque to control a massive platter. With the Victors......a lightweight aluminium platter is controlled by a medium-powered motor (sometimes coreless) combined with their various servo-controllers....with the Bi-Directional Controller utilised in their higher models.
So radical was this approach, that Yamaha 'borrowed' the designer of the TT-81 from Victor, to modify it with a coreless motor to use in their acclaimed GT-2000 and the Goldmund Studietto used the motor from the TT-81 with Micro-Seiki putting it all together.
That innovation in analogue engineering runs throughout the entire Victor repertoire during the Golden Age of Analogue. From cartridges to platter mats to tonearms to turntables...the Japanese Victor Company turned out some of the real jewels which still today...can hold their own. That's why the QL-A7 is so ridiculously undervalued at its performance levels. Shhh....don't let the secret out. ALL of the Victors are undervalued and under-appreciated IMHO...🤗
If the bi-directional servo patents momentarily stumped JP, don't feel bad. Best-groove, I know the DA307 has its defenders, and I can tell you that the rubber gasket separating the front end of the arm wand from the pivot point is still intact on mine, as you predicted, but my question is why have a point of discontinuity and potential flexibility between the headshell and the pivot point? Seems to me you don't want flexibility there, and 99% of tonearm designs are aimed at rigidity above all else. But I don't think the DA307 is junk; I just don't have a use for it at the moment so I store it in a shoebox. I also store my Technics EPA250, Dynavector DV501 and an extra DV505, Grace woodie, and Victor 7045 tonearms in other shoeboxes or in their factory containers.
So far thanks to the many great contributions here I have a fairly short, short list of possible tables. Kenwood KD500/550/600. JVC, QL-7/A7 Victor tt71/81 Micro Seiki DD7/8 Denon DP-60/62/80
Now I am sure that some of those are out of my self imposed price bracket like the dp-80 although that also seems to have the most universal thumbs up so it might be time to make the hard call and dig deeper into the pockets!
Also recommending the TT-101. Hard to beat and inexpensive relative to many other vintage TT's in this class. I have the QL-10 and added a Tenuto mat and some Gaia III's for feet and away I went. ~$1100.00 in it, and I bought it recapped. She's a keeper.
I have posted these videos before - this shows the speed accuracy of the DP80 over an entire album side 17 minutes and 28 seconds. The Timeline on the DP80 is about 26 feet away from the wall across the hall from my listening room, where the dot from the timeline laser is projected over the entire album side it moves forward about 3" or so - I have not calculated how accurate this is but its definitely well within specs.
Not intending to make this a 'Pissing Competition' Peter..😝 But here is a video I made years ago of VICTOR TT-81 WITH TIMELINE
I'm sure your Denon is very accurate, but if anyone has witnessed proof of the phenomenon known as 'Stylus Drag'....he knows that on many turntables, the speed will visually slow when the cartridge is lowered to the record and will likewise speed up when the arm is lifted. I'm not saying your Denon wouldn't preform as well as the Victors, nor am I saying there are no other turntables which could equal the feat of this TT-81 running three cartridges at the same time whilst being monitored by the Timeline. But I have seen no videos of any other turntable performing this feat 🤗 As such....I can claim with honesty, that this performance of speed accuracy and consistency, is currently 'matchless' 🤪
Well done Uber, I'm sure you won't regret this decision 👍
You may want to replace the capacitors in due course and you should of course, replace the original rubber mat with one of your own choice. The best sounding mat for the Victors I've found to be the Micro Seiki Cu-180 but I fear its weight might be too much for the bearing....so, believe it or not...the closest sounding mat to this heavy solid copper one is the Victor Pigskin mat (remember what I said about the Victor Engineering talents)? This mat however is virtually 'unobtanium'...so I found a close approximation to be the Jico Suede mats but I suspect they no longer make them. So HERE is a Pigskin Mat I found on Ebay which is worth trying....?
Anyway...good luck. And don't forget to report back here with your impressions..🧐
Do you not wear leather shoes....? Or sit on leather seats in a car or at home...? And if you’re vegetarian....do you chastise all the meat-eaters for creating the leftover useless skins?
Oh my, the thread went from Vintage DD turntables to a moral discussion on utilization of animal byproducts. I'm not going to weigh in on that, but here are some other recommendations: The Pioneer PL 600 (not the more recent plastic version), which is full auto, but has a decent arm and a suspended sub chassis.The Pioneer PL 71 is a more common consumer table than the PL 70. Full manual, dual plinth and very robust. Aesthetically, I would love to find a decent Sansui SR 828 or 929. I have seen them both for under $1000. I used to sell these, back in the day, and had a customer buy a slightly ratty floor model of the SR 828 who then replaced the arm with an Infinity Black Widow. He raved about it.
There have been leather and deerskin mats for sale and been used for donkeys years! Its not new at all! Not seen pigskin previously but not really much different in idea.
Dear @uberwaltz : The JVC QLA/ is not your best option and disagree with halcro. I linked to you the Yamaha GT750 that use a JVC motor but way better motor than the QL one, that was done under Yamaha specifications certainly it’s not the same QL one.
GT 750 S/N is -82db vs QL -74 db and GT W&F is 0.006% vs QL only a mediocre 0.025.
But the Yamaha tonearm is superb and is the same tonearm than the Yamaha top of the line TT series GT2000 that goes to megabucks price range. Take a look to the links I posted about that includes a review. Inclusive the GT750 is heavy than the QL by around 5kg.. All those have a meaning of quality between both TTs.
Raul, with respect, I have to disagree on the gt750. It’s not in the same league with TT81 by most accounts. And you said it yourself: the manufacturer published specs are not meaningful for comparing two products from different companies. Also the Yamaha tonearm on the gt750 is very suspect, partly made of 1970s plastics. The gt2000 is top notch, no doubt, and comparable to TT101, but the gt750 is two big steps down. GT2000X is probably in the big leagues with P3, SP 10 mk3, L07D, etc
By the way, ALL the Japanese DDs with coreless motors borrowed heavily from the design of the Dual coreless motor of the 1960s. The Kenwood, Victor, Yamaha, Pioneer Exclusive, and even the recent Brinkmann coreless motors are similar to each other and built just like the Dual if you take them apart. (I’ve done it for Victor and Kenwood motors and seen photos of all the others.) Kenwood and perhaps other companies were actually sued by Dual over this issue back in the day.
I agree with Lewn ... the arms applied on the lower range turntables can resemble the same arms as the top models of the house but they are not the same thing in terms of materials and construction tolerances; just look at the standard arm on the JVC QL7 which looks tremendously like the 5045 but it's not quite the same thing, as for the Sony PS X50 turntable which has as standard a tremendously resembling arm to the PUA7 sold separately but is not qualitatively the same identical item .
I fully realise I am not and will not be buying into the best vintage DD tech available. However I do not think the Yamaha GT750 is better than the JVC QLA7, rather more similar than one being " much" better. However it all depends on how you even define " better"?.
I will likely add some mass and damping to the JVC plinth so sort of answers the table mass point. Who truly knows which arm is better? I will see what my money has got me soon enough!
The GT 2000 is superior to the 101. Of course that because you are a 101 owner you can't admit Yamaha is superior. It does not matters what you think YAMAHA is superior and bestgrooves is wrong too when he said the tonearms are not the same because owners of the 750 can attest it's. Could be that the finish can be better on the top models but only the finish of the tonearm not its design and used parts on that tonearm design.
I owned two JVC tonearms one stand alone and one coming from a JVC TT and I can attest both are exactly the same.
Btw, yes specs can't tell us all about a product but here the differences are really high and speaks of the quality level of the building design. You have the 101, put your money where your mouth is and buy the GT 750 for by first hand experiences can attest or not what you are posting.
Sorry but your opinions are way wrong on that regards.
Yamaha not only made it high quality TTs but tonearms and very well regarded cartridges, speakers and electronics.
Audiophiles like you almost never talk about Yamaha but this company is second to none and extremely competitive at the very top level. Please don't make mistakes with.
In the other side I don't care about uber choice because that's his choice for good or bad, he is who will live with his choice not you or me or any one else.
As always only my opinion and nothing more than that.
R.
Btw, about the PUA-7 in other thread was proved that the stand alone is the same that the one in the TT and where in " hell " exist eveidence from Sony where they attested both tonearms are not the same but different. Bestgroove where is your Sony direct evidence. ? ? ?
I can buy a brand new SL1500c for $1499 Canadian so really close to your USA$ Budget why not but new? you get the upgraded motor, etc, so is that better then a 20+ year old one in your budget?
Granted i'm not an expert on Technics tables past or present. I also didn't read every post here so if this has been covered sorry for the rehash.
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