So What Is Real?
What is it that Art Linkletter used to say? Kids say the darndest things. Well, it seems some FB audio group administrators, audiophiles, high-end audio salespersons, audiophile society officials, and manufacturers also say things that make little or no sense when talking or posting about cables.
I usually steer clear of FB posts or online magazines that promote high-end audio cables. It's just never safe to present with science, established electrical engineering theory and practice, or objectiveness when cables are concerned. A recent exchange on a familiar FB audio group page resulted in a member calling me a "cable denier" because I advocated for science and physics in evaluating power cords.
The thread basically dismissed my comments because I'm a member of the professional audio engineering community. Audio equipment salespeople, FB administrators, high-end audio marketing managers, and the general audio buying public are claimed to be better and more reliable sources of information when it comes to recommending expensive accessories and cables. According to the gentleman below, they are capable of listening in ways that audio professionals can not.
One commenter wrote:
"Mark is a pro and speaks just like one, but he is not a professional LISTENER, like you (Writer's NOTE: the guy offering the ultra expensive power cords), I and so many others in the high-end industry. Interesting is that most so-called experts are also naysayers who work in the recording industry, not in the high-end industry."
What does this statement actually claim? That professional audio engineers and producers do not know how to listen? That spending one's professional life in front of speakers in a control room doesn't require listening?Maybe...just maybe...the engineers responsible for producing the recordings that are played back in these guys high-end systems are correct in their assessment of power cords and expensive USB/Ethernet cables. Image that!
Can you really trust a gentlemen that just launched a new cable company that offers a 6-foot power cord for $3150? Oh and this person also believes that cables are directional! BTW They are not.
Here's a couple of additional comments...
"Cables can make a difference. I’m glad I can hear those differences it truly enhances the experience. I have been a dedicated audiophile and in the industry for over 45 years and have been able to identify those differences since my first experience with Smog Lifters in the 70’s. I search for and usually discover great products that deserve special attention by people looking for the last bit of resolution and coherency. I’m truly sorry for those that wouldn’t hear the difference."
Here's a comment from an individual that swapped a normal Ethernet cable for an expensive one.
"...the Vodka seemed to remove a layer of film for superior textural reveal. There was also a shade more tonal depth and recording space ‘air’. Most noticeable of all was a further uptick in micro-dynamic jump."
I don't know about you but I cringe when I hear people talk about audio in such terms. And this after listening to a commercial album and then stopping, swapping the cable and relistening. It's unbelievable.
I could pull quotes from cable reviews all afternoon but I think you get the point. When anyone starts spewing nonsense about power cords, digital interconnects, or network cables, run away. Keep your wallet in your pocket and unsubscribe from that group or online magazine. Their motivations are suspect. They either want to sell you something (usually at very high cost) or are dependent on advertising dollars from the companies they write about or the individuals they interview.
"My ears are those 68 years old ears...Normal hearing for my age tough… First precision... Second remark, those who dont hears differences between cables has no educated hearing at all, or a very gross audio system, or a hearing health problem...In a moderately resolving audio system cables sound different for slightly educated ears... Third remark, even if i was hearing differences with all the cables I used immediately, that does not indicate that these changes are very great.... I cannot speak for thousand dollars cable tough... But my opinion that audiophiles that dream that some cables will makes an upgrade dont have a clue about upgrades...Cables are all different, and sound different, but the price of 300 hundred dollars for a cable for example is not always justifiable in a 2 or 3 thousand dollars system... The main upgrade of a system is even not, most of the times, an upgrade of the main electronic components of an audio system at all, be it an amplifier, a dac, or speakers, then never mind the cables.... The main upgrade of an audio system( by that I means amazing improvement), unbeknownst to most, is the means of controls of the 3 main embeddings of any audio system: mechanical, acoustical and electrical embeddings...After that you can dream about changing a main electronic component if this is your fancy... Conversation about cables only reflect most of the times this ignorance about audio system, and open the doors for deaf ears, or dogmatics, who mocks others negating anything they cannot or dont want to experience...... |
taras22 beat me to: " An updated passive network features premium grade AudioQuest® internal wiring." I suspect the former had more to do with improvement over the latter....just saying.... "And here we have a cable, which is, in effect, a capacitor, and having a better made one can't bring out more in the original recording like a better amp or source can? " From what I've been led to believe. a capacitor can act as a simple crossover in a 2 way unit....perhaps in the 'better' cables, this capacitance is minimized, But....isn't this still like a very primitive bit of eq? Ignoring Klipsch speakers for the moment....there seems a lot of 'push-back' on them in other 'locales' around here....;) (...and hasn't the whole 'cable issue' been beaten into pulp elsewhere already enough? Let's discuss angels on pinheads.....) |
https://www.klipsch.com/news/klipsch-refreshes-iconic-cornwall-speaker-enthusiasts-get-first-listen-at-rocky-mountain-audio-fest-2019
" ... * An updated passive network features premium grade AudioQuest® internal wiring. ..." From the horses mouth sort-to-speak...sweet. Had heard a couple of Klipsch speaker sets that were modded this way and in those cases it made for a very positive change. But to have the real, and stated authority do that, wow. |
Speaking of the idea of professional listeners....one the people listed above, Barry Diament, who very nicely fits in the professional listener category ( and successful to boot )...was once chased off a forum because he drew on his vast experience and success and tried to speak truth to nonsense. The response he got was much less than kind and he just got up and walked out the proverbial door. Nonsense won, and our wee audio circle lost access to the opinion of someone who really counted. So yes indeed sometimes it seems.... The greatest impediment to advancing an audiophile system is the audiophile. :( |
Let's see now. A better amp can improve the original recording's "signal" as well as a better source. We've all seen and heard it be it analog or digital. No one argues with that. I'm not talking about manipulating the signal with higher rez: just using the original recording. And here we have a cable, which is, in effect, a capacitor, and having a better made one can't bring out more in the original recording like a better amp or source can? How can you take both sides of the argument when it suits your fancy? Using the old, lousy cables in the recording chain messes with what is heard at the time. Most of that signal made it intact at the receiving end, despite the quality of the cable used at the time. So, just like a better amp or source that can extract that extra ounce, so, a better cable can unmask more of the signal which was always there. The argument that better cables can't replace what inferior cables did at the time of the recording presupposes that those were lousy cables used at the time of the recording. Thanks for admitting that. All the best, Nonoise |
I stand corrected. I held an audio cable up today and everything ran out the end onto the floor. I had no idea it was turned the wrong way. " Superior reproduction equipment allows one to better hear what is on the recording. It all starts with the recording, hardly a moot point. The capabilities of High End gear to reproduce music is in general far superior to the sound quality contained in the vast majority of recordings. " I agree 100% with that. " "How does one become a professional listener?" Give yourself a mental enema. I am not sure you are capable of this... " Sure a great reply that does not answer the question I was asking in all seriousness. I want to know, if being a professional listener is the only way to accurately judge cables how do you do this? I want to know there is more than look at how much I have spent garbage behind that comment from someone who want to sell 3500 cables. |
Having been behind the curtain for several decades couldn't agree more. |
THIS is real: Most "professional" recording engineers produce product that contains mediocre at best sound quality. To hold them up as them up as having the definitive opinion about anything is just specious.This is the real problem. Most recordings are very poorly done. This fact does more damage to what we hear at home than most of the mistakes we make with our systems. Professionals are not the people to look to for good sound, most of them anyway. If they would take a little care with what they do, we would have a much easier time getting good sound at home. |
Getting a signal from point A to point B involves many of the same issues whether the signal is being recorded, mastered, or played back. The effect cabling makes on the sound of a recording is NOT a moot point! Nor is the fact that the best recording and mastering engineers find there to be differences amongst cables. Superior reproduction equipment allows one to better hear what is on the recording. It all starts with the recording, hardly a moot point. The capabilities of High End gear to reproduce music is in general far superior to the sound quality contained in the vast majority of recordings. |
Most "professional" recording engineers produce product that contains mediocre at best sound quality. To hold them up as them up as having the definitive opinion about anything is just specious. There are a number of engineers who have created superior recordings who DO find differences in cabling, some of them Grammy Award winners for excellence in engineering. Doug Sax (The Mastering Lab, Sheffield Labs Records) Kav Alexander (Water Lily Records), Keith Johnson (Reference Recordings), Barry Diament (Sound Keeper Recordings), Sterling Sound Mastering, Pink Floyd Studios to name just a few. |
nonoise"So someone finds someone who can insult better than he can, gets down and worships the ground he walks on, and quotes all the best insults and snark he can muster, and that is his argument?" It is not in truth and actuality a real, genuine, authentic "argument" it is a statement of Faith, of belief, or religion and therefore needs no data, science, or substantiation it is justified in it’s very Faith. |
So someone finds someone who can insult better than he can, gets down and worships the ground he walks on, and quotes all the best insults and snark he can muster, and that is his argument? Talk about false gods and being led by the nose. Try reading this article from Roger Skoff on cables:https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/snake-oil-and-the-velocity-of-propagation/ No insults, no claims of golden ears, just a well reasoned look at cables. All the best, Nonoise |
"It is absolutely insane the nonsense that surrounds them. I went to the Klipsch sound lab in Hope, Arkansas last October and got to see the anechoic chamber and the test lab and from one side to the other not one of these dumb mega buck cables. As in the building where all klipsch speakers are designed and tested. Where the rubber hits the road and results count and not fictional bragging rights they use simple two conductor wires." https://www.klipsch.com/news/klipsch-refreshes-iconic-cornwall-speaker-enthusiasts-get-first-listen-at-rocky-mountain-audio-fest-2019 " ... * An updated passive network features premium grade AudioQuest® internal wiring. ..." |
I am uncertain as to why some one would bring discussions from other forums and then use them with quotations to initiate a discussion hear I suspect ulterior motivation for that. Never the less I note that the OP in this instance is firmly, solidly, and certainly absolutely rigid regarding his Faith, which I applaud with enthusiasm because there is no substitute for Faith in our lives and I can only hope that the OP will apply at some future point use this same allegiance to something more firmly rooted in either true Salvation or science at the very least. |
"
Not sure what that long and rambling rant was supposed to be about. The
even more tedious rambling nonsense that followed is the usually
predicable boring banter. Which is amazing, since if there's one thing
banters supposed to not be its boring. But there you go. The OP entire approach is mistaken. It is not a case of good wire or whatever that will "rise above the abilities of the music file limitations and recording engineers." That would indeed be impossible. But that's not it at all. What it is instead, every single tiny little bit of component between you and the performance either adds to or detracts from the original sound. The best you can do, the very best possible, is nothing gets added, and nothing gets detracted either. So now, if you can't hear any difference, great. Good for you. Lot cheaper that way. Congratulations. I should be so lucky. " I get a big kick out of people who want life like realism and then proceed to use things the people who played the music or recorded the music don't use to pretend they have achieved accurate playback. |
" Cable may be THE most contentious forum subject." It is absolutely insane the nonsense that surrounds them. I went to the Klipsch sound lab in Hope, Arkansas last October and got to see the anechoic chamber and the test lab and from one side to the other not one of these dumb mega buck cables. As in the building where all klipsch speakers are designed and tested. Where the rubber hits the road and results count and not fictional bragging rights they use simple two conductor wires. |
Not sure what that long and rambling rant was supposed to be about. The even more tedious rambling nonsense that followed is the usually predicable boring banter. Which is amazing, since if there's one thing banters supposed to not be its boring. But there you go. The OP entire approach is mistaken. It is not a case of good wire or whatever that will "rise above the abilities of the music file limitations and recording engineers." That would indeed be impossible. But that's not it at all. What it is instead, every single tiny little bit of component between you and the performance either adds to or detracts from the original sound. The best you can do, the very best possible, is nothing gets added, and nothing gets detracted either. So now, if you can't hear any difference, great. Good for you. Lot cheaper that way. Congratulations. I should be so lucky. |
Cable may be THE most contentious forum subject. Any threads started suggesting them not worth their claimed performance/price just invites endless debate without resolution. I say, buy whatever pleases your ears. No point in anti cable crusades. One just needs to be informed as much as possible, and base purchasing decisions with the education. Most important, be ready for possible outcomes not consistent with all the things they may be told/read. |
