I used to be an all-tube guy, but I’ve now ventured into the realm of high-end solid state with T+A and no longer have any itch to go back heavily into tubes. Now, the only tubes I have left in my system are in my Modwright PH9.0X phono, and from what I’ve demoed against it, it seems to be a giant killer. I do love it, but I’m curious to try a higher end solid state phono stage to see what more noise and more music might sound like. Unfortunately T+A does not have a standalone phono stage, so I’m looking at other manufacturers and open to other opinions.
I currently have a Clearaudio Innovation Wood table and Air Tight PC-1s cartridge. i listen to a wide range of music, from Zeppelin to Vivaldi to Beck to Coltrane to Yello. The stage would ideally have between 65-74db of gain, maybe adjustable to 60db at minimum, and have variable impedance values. A balanced output stage would be ideal. I don’t ever really plan to have a second arm, but most stages that retail over $7K tend to have multiple inputs anyways.
My budget would be at tops ~$8K for a used unit. The unit that is sticking out to me from what I’m reading about is the Simaudio Moon 810LP. Another high on the list is the Esoteric E-02. I’ve also come across the Pass XP-27, the Gold Note PH-1000.
I’m looking for a stage with some personality in its character, not one that is overly refined. I’d love for it to be dynamic and bold when it should be, and also gentle and refined when it should be.
The only solid state stages I’ve ever owned and tried were the Pass Labs Xono, which was clean sounding but a little noisy and brittle sounding compared to a PS Audio Stellar Phono. I’ve liked all my tube phono stages better than both of those units.
I’ve also considered going further up the tube stage route, looking at Doshi 3.0, Aesthetix IO Eclipse, but I’m hesitant unless I can hear those in place.
What solid stage phono stages have you loved, and what have you compared them to?
As with any audio item almost always exist a " but " and in your unit is that’s weird that the RIAA deviation ( that’s the main critical characteristic along gain for a phono stage. ) has a swing of 0.4db !
rather silly to get excited about that small of a deviation. No , it is really, really silly. All else equal, flatter is of course better, but chasing ideal measurements is a fools game. You are lucky if you don’t have 10dB swings in response at the listening position due to speaker-room interactions. I couldn’t care less about 0.4 dB. It is certainly NOT the "main critical characteristic.. "
Dear @herman : Rather silly? is a fools game ? could be for you that have different MUSIC/audio targets than me.
" It is certainly NOT the "main critical characteristic.. "
Statement totally false for say the least. Look, the phono stage exist because the cartridge signal NEEDS the INVERSE RIAA EQ.
If the cartridge signal did not needs it then the phono stage was not not a necessity because with a line stage preamp is more than enough. A linepreamp with a selector for: CD,MM,MC and the like. No inverse RIAA eq. heavy signal degradation ! ! !
Can you imagine the huge improvement in what all of us should listen it with out?
The RIAA standard boost/cut is a range of 40 dB from 20-20KHz. Therefore, 0.4dB deviation is not critical. That does not mean I am saying that RIAA correction is not NEEDED.
Raul, you have taken what I said and totally twisted it out of context. You have taken my statement that 0.4 dB is not critical and taken it the extreme to state I am saying that RIAA correction is not NEEDED I did not even hint that RIAA correction is not NEEDED. Why would you state that I did?
@hermanand @rauliruegasLet’s not let this escalate any further. To be fair, the term “critical” is subjective to each listener, and we do know Raul has very high standards. :)
@hermanI do empathize on how your words were misconstrued. I agree with your perspective, and you shouldn’t have been rejected for sharing it.
I’ve always taken inverse RIAA with a grain of salt. Everything we do shifts the equalization of music, down to tube rolling and power cable selection (but let’s not make this a point of debate please). The room affects the sound most of all.
i appreciate measurements, but 100% agree that at the end of the day it’s how it sounds to me, and in my room, and that matters the most.
"i appreciate measurements, but 100% agree that at the end of the day it’s how it sounds to me, and in my room, and that matters the most".
Your statement strikes a chord, I am wed to, and ensure when I am in the process of learning I get as up close and personal to devices/equipment of interest as possible, and this regularly means I am in a room that is dedicated to the use of the items of interest, this allows a subjective evaluation and reasonably accurate assessment .
For myself, I would class any evaluation not undertaken like the above, especially if a device is not demonstrated, as a fantastical assessment which will most likely be quite flawed.
Having a demonstration, preferably in the home system, is the most important if the enjoyment of listening to a music replay is the priority, ones ears being used in the selected environment for the equipment, are the only methods required to tell if the set up is delivering in a totally satisfying manner for the end user.
Dear @herman@thiefoflight : " at the end of the day it’s how it sounds to me, and in my room, and that matters the most. "
I agree with you and with herman too about those 10db developed by almost any room system where 0.4db deviation can see " silly " to considerate.
What any one of us like to listen how it sounds always has different quality levels. We can be satisfied iwht a truly expensive room/audio system but even there exist other " better " quality levels.
Of what depends that wuality levels/grading of what we like? depends of many room/system issues but mainly of what be our MUSIC/sound targets. Through the years as almost any one of you I builded what I have trying to achieve that target and still am in that quest.
My target is try to stay nearer to the recording no matters what and for I can stay nearer to the rcording any room/system link is critical to achieve that target. At each single liiiiiink in the system chain I must look that that link develops the lower any kind of distortions from the source to my ears.
If we are talking of the way imperfect analog medium the inverse RIAA eq. curve deviation is way important because any db fraction affects at least one and a half octave and obviously its harmonics. Phono stage is only and example of what I look to achieve my target and this is why my hono line preamps has a deviation RIAA that measure 0.011 db No this kind of specs is not what makes the whole difference on what I'm listening but that ridiculous deviation RIAA counts in the overall room/system MUSIC/sound reproduction. I take care at any system link.
In the other side a swing of that silly 0.4db amkes me think that something is not really good in that expensive phono stage design, that's all. Today a 2k phono stage gives us 0.1db in that spec. It's not a true critic to the OP unit is only a " way of thinking in " loud " way ".
The main advantage that gives us that target and how been there is that if we have any system link at its minimum distortion levels there is no way that the room/system MUSIC/sound reproduction don't like it: no way, always will like any one of us .
I don't try to disturb the op or any one else and I don't want to derail the thread.
@rauliruegasThanks for sharing your thoughts. I’m still curious, though - I asked before. Are you referring to the 0.4db on the BMC or the Audionet?
One thing I am skeptical about is uniformity of measurements. Sometimes manufacturers will state a weighted average vs the lowest performing spec across the frequency spectrum. In that case, across most frequencies, the BMC is performing closely to that 0.011db spec. It only deviates that in the low bass regions, which are then able to be additionally compensated in the settings. I would say that in the least, I applaud BMC for publishing the performance across the frequency range, which most other manufacturers are not inclined to do.
It’s still worthwhile to hear what folks like, for others’ learning benefits.
@rauliruegas Wouldn’t a RIAA response of +/-0.2db only sway at a max 0.2db at any single frequency? What phono stage do you use that sways a total of 0.11db?
Dear @thiefoflight : +/- 0.2b means that the RIAA deviation has a maximum of 0.2b below or over the eq. then the swing is 0.4db. In your model that deviation starts at 40hz.
Normally the RIAA deviation spec starts at 20hz and due that Audionet decided to starts at 40hz that means that below 40hz de deviation is higher. Normally too phono stages higher eq. RIAA inverse deviation happens in the low bass frequency range.
You can read about the phonolinepreamp that I'm using in the Agon virtual system.
If you haven't considered the Rega Aura that's my current phono preamp and "end game" for me at least. I owned the PS Audio Stellar Phono Pre and traded for the Rega. The Aura is super refined, detailed without being strident and very musical. I have it paired with a Rega RP-10 / Aphelion 2 so all Rega may have some bearing on "synergy".
I had a Modwright ph 9.0 and had it upgraded to a 9.0x. I also had the Parasound JC3+ at the same time. The jc3+ and the 9.0 are very comparable in sound but with a slightly different sound signature. Any difference preference was purely subjective. The 9.0x was objectively better. Deeper,more authoritative bass and deeper soundstage and that’s with the stock tubes! With the right nos tubes (Philips miniwatt, Bel India, and Valvo 6922, Matsushita 7dj8, Valvo and Philips miniwatt PCC88 tubes) I can’t imagine a better sounding phono preamp.
@hifi59 I’m glad to hear you are enjoying the PH9.0X. It truly is one of the best purchases I ever made, and I still feel that way even if I’ve moved past it. I have endless respect for what Dan was able to achieve with it given the price point.
About three weeks in now with the Audionet PAM G2 and EPC combo, and has been performing admirably. The heavier weight in the delivery opened up a bit, and the bass performance has gotten tighter without losing intensity. It truly is an incredibly liquid sounding unit, incredibly involving and detailed. I simply can’t believe it is not a tube-based unit considering the beautiful harmonics and bloom, but the ultra-low noise and detail retrieval make it obvious it surpasses the performance of most if not all tube units on the market. So far no regrets purchasing it.
But now, enter the BMC MCCI Signature ULN, which arrived this past Friday. It is a gorgeous unit inside and out. The craftsmanship is impeccable. From an engineering perspective, it seems to be on an opposite side of the spectrum as it operates in the current injection / transimpedance paradigm. I want to give the unit the benefit of the doubt as it’s absolutely not broken in with probably 10 hours of play time on it max, so we’ll have to see how it plays out, but I’ll say my first impression with it doesn’t win me over the way the Audionet does. The tonal balance is tipped a bit higher and though with some records the BMC’s snappiness actually images incredibly with holography, other albums can sound too forward and almost fatiguing. Soundstage is also not nearly as wide and large as the Audionet, with more of the imaging happening between the speakers vs disappearing beyond
Again, I’m attributing any shortcomings to it not being broken in… from what I’ve read and heard from others, it takes quite a while I can break in. My plan is to keep spinning records using thus stage for the next 2-3 weeks and switch back to the Audionet at the end of the month for an initial comparison.
OP...Try a Sutherland phono stage at your price point. Give Ron a call, he's easy to contact and very friendly and informative. He won't try to sell you something that does not meet your needs/preferences. He's got plenty of customers to keep him busy. For my ears Sutherland gear sounds like music, simple concept that too often gets lost in the specs/wild-arse opinions of this crazy analog world.
@jeff1225 Did you mean the Aurorasound Vida MkII or a Viva Fono? The Viva Aurora is a massive set of 845 monoblocks. I’ve owned a Viva Linea preamp, and it was beautiful but somewhat obscuring. I did have curiosity about the Aurorasound Vida before.
That said @palasrand others - I’m now quite happy with the two stages I have and am still evaluating which I will keep for the main rig. The BMC MCCI has really come to fruition the last two weeks, but it does have a very different presentation from the Audionet. I relate the BMC to an OTL amp. It is incredibly clear, like nothing is held back in terms of presence and resolution. But the forwardness of the presentation inhibits soul from being at the core of the music. Not much, and I likely would not be picky if I didn’t have the Audionet as well… but I do. The BMC continues to be more forward, and over time feels slightly more fatiguing. The Audionet on the other hand is a bit more refined and confident sounding, like it’s not trying to prove anything. It just delivers music and has an incredible flow with incredible resolution.
I would say that the BMC does let me hear things that I wish the Audionet could do. The imaging at most times is incredibly holographic. The sense of space and separation between instruments is stunning. But sometimes, it makes it feel like a number of musicians playing separately and the gel factor doesn’t hit me like it does with the Audionet. The moment I put on the Audionet, I miss some of the presence from the BMC and it takes a while to get used to, but I feel the music more, and it most times gives me a stronger and more fulfilling emotional response.
I am still playing with the settings of both units. The capacitance and resistance settings of the Audionet do effectively fine tune tonal balance and presentation. The BMC has different types of settings for providing a warmer sound and standard RIAA vs Neumann RIAA curves. That combinations of the two do make notable differences in the presentation, and I need to sit with both units more.
but to be clear, while I love them both equally, it is not to say that they are anywhere close in their overall presentation to each other. They are completely different beasts, both whom deserve to be loved.
@thiefoflight I got the name wrong and the system wouldn't let me edit. I have the VIDA MKII and I'm very pleased. It's dead quiet but still extremely engaging.
@jeff1225 Thanks for the clarification. While I likely won’t purchase it anytime soon, I am still curious about it. What phono stage did you own prior, and what were the notable differences that the Vida brought?
I have on regular occasions been in in a position to experience two phonostages.
I have had the option to use different Tonearms and Cartridges, but experiencing these does not in my experiences, impact on the presentation in the same manner as changing the signal path via the Phonostage.
To work with the impressions that can be made, I have a few resident SUT's but have had the loans of other SUT's and Head Amp's.
There is something about the differences a Phonostage can have on a replay, and the want to learn much about this has led me to be party to numerous demonstrations of devices.
I have come to learn there is a small selection of Phonostages I would be happy to be with, would I like to have them all at home and select one that supersedes all. No I would not, I like the memory, the recollection and the want to get out and encounter such wonderment once more.
It is very satisfying to be in the company of a device that makes such a positive impression and creates a real feel good factor, but for all these strengths, is not enough to tempt one of their much enjoyed owned devices. The experience of being able to gauge where a system is and know that any alterations will be a change only, but mot a change for the better is a comfortable place to be.
The differences recognised between the devices, and the alternate usage of each device, is almost a selection to suit a mood, and ones mood is usually dictating the Genre selected to be replayed, the alternate usage is certainly not an attempt to improve the system. I am suspecting this is where the OP is finding they have arrived at with their options for the two devices available at present.
Thanks for the update. Honestly, your experience with both phono stages is a classic audiophile conundrum - what do I like better on any given day with any given recording? Apples and oranges as they say. Good luck!
I have a Moon 390P and it has an internal phono stage using some of the technology in the 810P and it's a shocking good phono stage.
I used to have a McIntosh C2600 and evaluated the 390 as a DAC/Streamer as an upgrade to the Node 2i and it ended up replacing them both because I was impressed with the phono preamp and it let me consolidate boxes.
I'd also encourage you to consider Moon's 610P and the entry Boulder phono preamp.
@vonhelmholtz I decided to let the BMC unit go. I have to say it is impressive in every way for its price point, and while it may have done some things technically better, the Audionet PAM G2 with the EPS power supply just delivered greater musical satisfaction and helped me to feel and fall in love with the music more. The Audionet has greater control settings for impedance, conductance, etc, allowing me to better tailor the tone and frequency response, and it does an excellent job of balancing soul, body, and detail.
The BMC does demonstrate greater separation of instruments and delineation overall, but for me it was to the point where it started sounding like the instruments were playing individually and not towards a shared goal. This is absolutely a personal experience and not an objective one. Should the rest of my chain have been less resolving or introduced a bit more bloom, I would likely have settled on it in a heartbeat. The well-known Agoner that I ended up selling the unit to is quite critical in his equipment and sonics seems to be very pleased with the unit.
I guess I should say that the evaluation is not over. @overthemoon and others who have encouraged my itch for the Simaudio Moon 810 LP, I am finalizing a trade deal for one and hope to have it in possession next month. I would like to demo that against the Audionet and will again keep whichever I prefer and sell the other. Should I enjoy the 810LP, I will not hesitate to purchase the 820S power supply to improve upon it further.
Try and source a Vendetta SCP2A - or derivatives - and don’t worry about a phono stage again.
I personally am not a fan of tubes although I haven’t tried enough to give an ipso facto critique. That said if you want a musical phono stage both those from Tron and the EAR834p are worth a listen
Kind of late to the thread, but I will just say I have an ARC Ref 2 SE Phono and demoed a Boulder 508.
It took less than five minutes of listening to the 508 before I had it unplugged and ready to go back to the dealer because though it was very good for a solid state phono stage, it clearly (to me) came nowhere near the ARC in a variety of different ways.
The best summary is it sounded rather “solid state.”
I’ve been trying to audition a Boulder 1108 for a few years now but my dealer could never get Boulder’s demo sent to them, even during COVID.
From my experience of having listened to New Devices be it a Home Built Design or a New Off the Shelf design, the ones regularly encountered usually takes about 100+ Hours to deliver close to their best.
Additionally, with a Phonostage, especially a valve, but I do know this extends to some degree to Valve Hybrid and Solid State a period of pre warm up, is without doubt beneficial to the SQ that is to become available.
To allow a minimum pre use time for an assessment on a Phonostage, is limiting to the experience that can be encountered.
A Valve Hybrid, I have as an alternate design of Phon', was quite ungathered in the lower registers for a few weeks before I got a hint of what was to come, later down the line the Bass is as enjoyable as the other owned Phon' even if a little different in the overall presentation.
Kucharsk, I have no opinion as to your ARC vs the Boulder phono, but if you truly gave it only a 5 minute listen, you never really heard it in your system. As Pindac notes , solid state gear needs to warm up (literally) to sound its best. In my experience with a different SS phono section, this can take as much as an hour and might take longer after being transported to your home from a dealer. My particular SS phono can take longer to warm up than my all tube phono.
I guess I have updates as well, which fit with @lewm's statement above. I used some funds from selling the BMC MCCI Signature ULN to acquire a Simaudio Moon 810LP. It is a very different beast from the Audionet PAM G2 / EPS which I documented through this thread, but also different from the BMC. In some ways, it falls between these two units, and part of me is still longing for just a little bit more. This is where I need to ride it out with break in.
I previously described the Audionet as balancing soul, body, and detail, but it surely does not have the snap and immediacy of the BMC. The BMC, on the other hand, I found to have unparalleled clarity and separation, but at times at the expense of the music gelling and flowing, and I found myself listening more analytically vs enjoying the music as a whole.
The Simaudio Moon 810LP definitely has more clarity and separation than that of the Audionet, but it is not as pronounced as my experiences with the BMC. The 810LPs tone is very natural, and the pacing and presentation is just wonderful and holographic. It is still just a tad bit dry for my tastes, but I would probably think differently if the bass and midbass filled in a little bit more. And here's where I hit the snag. For some reason, the bass and midbass is just weak, and it makes the unit sound thinner and more dry. I bought the unit as a distributor demo, but it never really had any use. What I've heard is that it takes up to 500 hours to fully break in and settle, and I'm only on about 60-75 of those hours. I may also need to play with the loading, which is a bit frustrating because it is under the unit and requires me to disconnect cables to adjust. What's worse, as Lew mentions above, it takes about 203 hours after powering the unit on before it fully warms up and sounds great again, so many have advised me to leave the unit on at all times.
The unit has only 40,000uF of capacitance reservoir, which is still quite high, but nowhere near the 100,000uF of the BMC or the 250,000uF of the Audionet. Perhaps the 820s power supply could help me achieve what I feel is missing, but overall the 810LP is a very admirable unit, and I'm betting the break in period will be revelatory.
If anyone else has an 810LP (hint @rauliruegas), I would appreciate if you weigh in on your break in experience if you had to endure it!
Capacitance alone doesn’t tell you much. Depends also on the B+ voltage developed in the supply. Tube devices develop high voltages, e.g., 250V and higher and require less filter capacitor. SS devices usually operate at or below 100V, but 100V would need less filtering than say 25V. Also Class A devices place different demands on the PS, compared to Class AB or B. That can be ignored since preamplifiers are nearly all Class A.
But manufacturers commonly tout massive capacitance as an unalloyed virtue and offer “upgrades” where adequate filter capacitance is replaced by even more than adequate capacitance. This can help in a Class AB amplifier but I’m skeptical how much it helps SQ of a preamp, providing the original filtering was adequate.
Bliss, I assume 203 hours means 2-3 hours. I keep the PS of my SS amplifier on standby at all times. Then when in active use it takes 30 to 45 minutes to bloom. (This is not about the BMC, which I keep on at all times.)
Not too long ago, I have made it known, I am a Valve Phon' individual who has come to this place after being a user of SS Phon's.
I do admit the change to a Phon' with a Tube Input/Output, took one to be Bespoke Produced for myself.
Over the past few years, I have been an invited guest to offer a assessment on a SS Phon' Design that has been undergoing R&D as a Prototype.
During this span of time, I have also been invited to be auditioned / demo'd a selection of Phon's, mainly SS, of which some are DIY Builds and one other being the being the Phasemation EA-350.
It was not until I was demo'd the Phasemation, that I could even suggest I was hearing a Phon' had a remote comparison to the Prototype Phon' I have been familiarised with. Without both Phon's side by side compared, my thoughts are only that, merely recollections of two produced sonics with quite some time between each of the experiences encountered.
More recently something happened as a result of having my first demo' of my Pre-Amp' that is being built for me.
The outcome being that I have now developed a curiosity similar to the Threads OP, where I am very curious, to learn how a SS Phon' will present in my system, when supported by my new pre-amp's.
For myself this is quite a profound shift, as I thought I was limiting myself to discovering how a few SUT's from the same designer/Brand were to perform as a home demo'.
The SS Phon' curiosity has evolved in recent days further.
I have discussed with the EE/ Designer and in my case Builder (This Phon' is already available to be purchased a Commercial Sale Item) a Bespoke end Build for this design of Phon'.
lt will be initially unique from the off set, in keeping with my Pre Amps, as the cases will be produced from Densified Wood.
Where the Bespoke will come, is that I will be suggesting a selection of Components to be used, that I have come to learn as being very valuable when added to a circuit. (I have yet to attain permission from the designer of these hooks for components to be able to use them). The end product will be attuned to my own preference using the design that has already thoroughly impressed as the measure for the changes to the sonic be put in place.
I though I was spent with Vinyl as a Source, where I had a arrived at a place where my only concern is for the care/preservation of the Source Material and the careful looking after of a Cartridge.
Hey Ho, no more rolled up trouser legs having a paddle, it is back in the water and having a swim, fortunately in trusted water.
I use three different phono stages in my systems, two solid state and one tube.
We did a shoot out on my main system recently - my Vendetta SCP2-D against a Herron that had been updated to Herron VTPH-2.
Signal came from a Koetsu Urushi/SME V/ VPI TNT V.
It was a stand off with the exception of the Herron being slightly better in the higher frequencies. I adjusted the cartridge loading and they were a dead tie.
It is a term used by Guitarists to describe their insights to produce a uniqueness to the sound they are capable of creating.
BB King once stated something like, " If a very well known Guitarist is Front Row at a show, turn your back on them, as they are there to steal your 'hooks'. "
Jeff Beck is renowned for being the Guitarist who has had most 'hooks' plagiarised.
EE's who I discuss things with use 'hook', it is this terminology that suggests there is experiences being used to produce a sonic, that is manifesting from the creation of a unique circuitry/topology or component treatments that are instrumental in creating a unique sonic signature.
This is where Bespoke Design/Built is difficult to describe, it is not something readily available to be heard in use. Assessments made are for the best, if an experience has been encountered, the impression being made on a listener is then much better understood.
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