I’ve found that the SQ of my red book CDs exceeds that of streaming using the identical recordings for comparison. (I’m not including hi res technology here.) I would like to stop buying CDs, save money, and just stream, but I really find I enjoy the CDs more because of the better overall sonic performance. I stream with Chromecast Audio using the same DAC (Schiit Gumby) as I play CDs through. I’m wondering if others have had the same experience
We created the AudioFacts Pro modification for the Lumin D1/D2/T1.
The D1/D2 and T1 own the same dac as the Lumin A1. But the A1 uses better capacitors and other parts. So we created a modification with superior capacitors and parts what now outperforms the Lumin A1 on all the different aspects/properties of sound.
The D1/D2/T1 with AudioFacts Pro modification comes very close to the level of the Lumin S1. We compared it with many expensive dacs and other streamers. And it was no match.
The thing I love most of audio is shootout and comparing. A born perfectionist always wants to win and ouperfrom each individual competitor. This is how I was born. It is my goal to proof that I can outperform each person in the world in stereo, surround and in vision.
I think and work by Tru-Fi. This means that we create both sound&vision on all the aspects/properties it owns. Because this brings us so much closer to how sound and vision sounds and looks like in real.
A bron perfectionist has only one goal. To create the best result and quality possible. There is no other option. Streaming is just for hun and using and creating modified drives and powersupplies is the holy grail.
Music is all about emotion. And we are only interested in creating emotion in everything we create and sell.
The best will always win, and this is what we create. The sound will always tell the truth. And people will always choose what is superior to the rest. That is how simple it is!
I owned the best and most expensive cd-players in the world. And when I wanted to start with streaming in 2012 I was stunned that over 99% of all streaming products were all useless.
Now in 2018 in our world over 99% of all streaming products are still useless. We understand that many people still use turntables and cd-players. Because most digital sources and dacs are all very limited in quality.
The whole world in audio sells products. We create sound and vision. And that is a totally different world what is the opposite of the trial and error world.
We work with all our dedication, drive, effort, insight and knowledge to create sound. That brings people so much closer or how music and instruments sounds.
We are a Lumin specialsit and go into details further than any other Lumin dealer. Each single human being can sell a Lumin out of a box. We know the full DNA of each single Lumin product.
This makes us able to reach and use the full potential of each Lumin product. We often send new clients to shops to make them understand that how different the same Lumin sounds in our Tru-Fi world vs the limited trial and error world.
My question is do the streaming companies buy the tracks from the record companies directly, and if they do is it via hard drive transfer or software? Or is there a distributor (middle man?)
It probably depends on the company, but I would bet that 99% of them just get the same tracks that we can buy by downloading them. These are generally not masters because masters are 24/96 or 24/192, almost never 44.1. These are down-sampled for the streaming track.
This is why I almost never stream. I have my library of tracks on a RAID 1 and these are specifically selected for good SQ and tracks that I like. All are .wav files, uncompressed. This delivers the best SQ.
Your thread is where many people are interested in. There is still too much what is unknown.
The thing I love most about now is that there are options of which we only could dream of in the past.
On the other hand is that still most audio products will never make people happy for over a longer period of time. Because our emotion cannot be fooled.
So when products cannot reveal all the different apects/properties of sound it is impossible to become and stay happy with it.
Streaming can be stunning and really great. But you are still independent of too many different aspects.
When I judge the quality of recordings of the biggest music stars in the world, often these recordings are limited. I am even sure that these artists have no idea how limited their recordings are.
I found and bought music of artists who only have a few thousand hits on Youtube. But their recordings are really stunning. It proofs that it is not about money what the issue is when a recording is limited.
In the 20 years that I work in this business I have tried many times to bring people together. But the world in audio is sick like the fact that the whole world is sick. I was dissapointed when people reacted very hard and where not interested in working together.
At the end we humans are the ones who limit us self over and over again. Because we think that we can do it all by ourselves. In those 20 years I work in this busienss I made big steps thanks to all those different specialists in many areas. Together you will always be so much stronger.
Happy new year: I have been using a Berkeley Audio Alpha 2 Reference w/ MQA, spinning CD's on an Esoteric PO3 Transport w/ Shunyata Alpha digital AES/EBU. Jeff Rowland Chorus/PSU to twin Rowland 625's/Revel Salon 2 speakers. I love the system and prefer it sonically to Digital (borrowed a DCS Vivaldi to listen.) I think a very good system is as good as a digital file of equal quality. Certainly no reason to ditch a transport or such.
Streaming is fine for casual listening. In my opinion critical listening still requires cd/sacd dedicated drive/software. This may change in the future or everyone possibly will revert to vinyl. ;)
I agree. I only use streaming for parties etc. Most of my listening is using Ethernet renderer with tracks spooled from locally stored .wav files. Beats any CD or SACD player. Much lower jitter possible.
After a couple of years with Tidal's and/or Deezer's premium tiers I went back to Spotify for casual listening. Like others here I've found the streaming services just don't measure up to my own library of ripped/downloaded files. I'm perfectly satisfied with this, Spotify has a terrific catalog and is a great way to discover music I'm interested in owning. I also enjoy Pandora and some internet radio streams.
@audioengr .. for quite some time I've read your posts about using WAV vs. everything else and was an unbeliever. I recently moved to a UPnP/ethernet renderer based audio solution and now understand. FWIW I only tried WAV out of frustration with UPnP, which seemed to stumble a bit with my uncompressed flac files. A suggestion was made to try WAV instead of flac and not only did it behave better but also sounded better to my ears. (Not trying to start a war here guys .. just my very subjective and non-double blind listening experience. YMMV.)
I have been demonstrating the difference in formats at trade shows for years. My equipment has always been resolving enough to easily hear the differences, even USB. I even hear a difference in AIFF and uncompressed FLAC compared to .wav.
If you are using UPnP, then you should try Linn Kinsky and Minimserver with BubbleUPnP as proxy server, if you are not already using these.
Also, here are some killer tweaks to make Ethernet sound stellar:
Thanks for asking. Aside from the new Arcam streamer which Is a big improvement over Chromecast, I’m getting a new power cable for my DAC and new speaker cables from Morrow. Interestingly, now that I have been extensively streaming, I have gone back to my original assessment that, on my system, CDs sound better: more detail and life.
As I said to a friend recently, the world of music open to you through streaming is akin to the era of free sex in the sixties and seventies prior to AIDS.
@rvpiano, did you listen to CD's and vinyl recordings in their entirety? If so I wonder i you do the same while streaming. One of the things I like about CD's and vinyl is that when I put one on, I always listen to the entire record.
rvpiano finally going to complete my system. I enjoyed an audition with Pass Labs X-150.8 power amp earlier this week. Considering cabling and pre-amp options now. I will keep you posted. Happy Listening!
I continue to see negative posts about how streaming quality is not on par with CD resolution. Please don’t expect to be wowed by plug n play devices (like Chromecast) and streaming providers that don’t offer CD resolution, case in point Pandora and Spotify. As one of the member pointed out, this kind of setup is good enough for parties not for serious listening experience.
Invest in a good streaming device / DAC, subscribe to Tidal and ensure following steps,
Never use WIFI for streaming music content to your network player,
Limit network traffic when playing an online stream,
Use software optimized for sound quality,
Use high-end network adapter & switch,
Upgrade your router,
Replace generic ethernet patch cords with audio grade LAN cables.
I can say unequivocally streaming in my system has surpassed all of my expectations and I enjoy streaming just as much as spinning my CD/SACD’s collection.
Those of you guys using Tidal as a reference to compare streaming to CDs, there is hope. Spent last night comparing Qobuz to Tidal and Qobuz gets you so much closer to CD sound than Tidal ever did. In my system, I use to think it was the streamer or cables that wasn’t up to par but it’s looks like it was always the music data source. At else in my system Qobuz via an Aurender N100h sounds better than CDs playing through my CDP transport. I will be switching over to Qobuz.
Are you able to stream Qobuz in 24bit/192kHz resolution? I tried the free trial that limits you to hear files in 24bit/96kHz resolution, which is quite good. And yes, from what I heard Qobuz streaming is a step forward than Tidal.
I too have been looking forward to the release of Qobuz in the US but was told recently that the full release (including 24/192 resolution) would be delayed another month or two. Are you in the US, and are you using the trial version?
@ron17, I’m based in the US. My subscription is showing as Qobuz Studio in the Aurender. I’m on the 30 free trial, but it did say that if I don’t cancel, the subscription will continue after 30 days. I’m currently listening to John Coltrane’s Blue Train in it’s full 24/192 glory. I double checked the DAC to make sure :). Beautiful sounding. I’m sure as Qobuz gets closer and closer to the full launch, features will be released in advance. I'm a happy camper! One thing to note is that since I'm using an Aurender to stream, the streaming options maybe different from the desktop beta released Qobuz app for windows/mac. In my Aurender, I see an option choice for HiRes - 24bits / up to 192kHz and that's what I have selected.
Thanks for the info. I went to their website to see if I could get more info and see a sign up tap stating
"Join the waitlist to become a US Beta tester" ..... Is that what you did?
I also have a friend (that uses an Aurender) in the US that ended up with a Qobuz account coded to the United Kingdom who can receive 24/96 but not full 24/192 resolution.
Not trying to go off topic here - but as mentioned earlier @kalali to add a reclocker between chromecast and dac to reduce jitter - question is why when your dac really should be taking care of the jitter (benchmark dac1)? Do you really need to add a reclocker?
@missingtime where does the ethernet cable go? My Apple TV is ethernet hard wired (like it better than Airplay) - going into OPPO105 (to split the HDMI sound) - coax out from OPPO going into Benchmark DAC. How can I use a better ethernet cable? Will a better HDMI cable help too since the sound is really coming from HDMI source?
Jumping in a bit late and admit I haven't read the bulk of the thread. Riddle me this. I am using a custom gaming pc as my source with an asus dsx soundcard outputing via AQ carbon coax spdif feeding a Bryston Bda 1 balanced out to a Krell Showcase then on to my Levinson 334 for stereo left right channels. Tidal sounds much more dynamic and better than my ripped local files that sit on a ssd. I am not even using hard wire networking I am using wifi. My Jriver is setup wasapi output and so on. This doesn't make sense.
I’ve found that the SQ of my red book CDs exceeds that of streaming
using the identical recordings for comparison. [...] I’m wondering if others have had the same experience
I’ve found that the SQ of my red book CDs exceeds that of streaming using the identical recordings for comparison.
One word, compression. Either by the streaming company to save on size when streaming. Or because they used the compressed later release version of the music they stream, even though it’s the same piece. The uncompressed harder to find versions always sound better. Prove it to your self, buy these two and compare http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Golden+Earring&album=Moontan
One word, compression. Either by the streaming company to save on size when streaming. Or because they used the compressed later release version of the music they stream, even though it’s the same piece. The uncompressed harder to find versions always sound better.
I would hope that the major streaming services that tout the quality of their music are not compressing the files during the upload process; ie, Qobuz who offers CD quality and hires. Although limited compression may be required and acceptable.
As far as the selection of albums available, it's getting harder to find an original release. Most versions are now over-compressed with poor dynamic range. This is the case for the rock/pop genre, even some jazz such as the ECM remasters. I can always find a better quality release in my CD collection.
Streaming files are no different than CD or Vinyl pressings. We have great sounding albums on CD’s or Vinyl’s and bad one’s too. I am not saying there is no truth here, there are plenty of rock albums that don’t sound good on Streaming but they also suck on other formats too. Some of us are fortunate enough to own good copies that sourced from original master tapes. IME, there are plenty of great sounding files on Qobuz / Tidal that sound as good as CD or better.
Some people loves to make unnecessary ‘noise’ about compression...funny thing is they don’t even have a streaming setup. They are just too stubborn to get out of their comfort zone and adapt to present or future.
Thanks for asking! I’m not sure if I mentioned it before, but I bought a Benchmark DAC3, and a GeerFab digital extractor. Both units made a big difference. How about you?
Lalitk, Maybe you should try a Top of the Line Spinner/Dac like Esoteric with a Clock and compare it to your streamer. Dealers that carry both streamers and Esoteric/MSB/Gryphon etc will tell you there is no comparison. Me thinks some people arent stubborn to change...they simply can afford the best and not compromise. Streamers are great for experimentation but not for sound quality. I think people are just too lazy to get off their butt and put a new disc in every 45 minutes.
“Streamers are great for experimentation but not for sound quality”
@riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook,
Comment like above tells me you have no experience with streamers or you’re too cheap / lazy to invest in a SOTA streamer setup. It appears you have yet to hear a good streaming setup.
My streamer / DAC setup smokes any $20K Esoteric CD/SACD player. I know so cause I have done the A/B comparison in my home.
Dealers are not making the profit margin on the few new "good cd only transports", that they can make on the multitude of streamers out there.
Whenever a streamer (doesn’t matter what) comes to my place for an a/b shootout, it can’t match the CD transports dynamic range, using the same MSB discrete dac level matched, this is as I’ve mostly stated, different compressed releases being streamed, as my cd’s are the best DR ones released (usually the first), http://dr.loudness-war.info/ or it "maybe" that the streaming company compresses to stream.
But if the CD with transport is recorded to a streamers H/D then replayed that’s another story, it’s a lot closer, almost undetectable.
What generation Esoteric are you referring to?? 20K doesn't buy you TOTL and Im guessing your experience is with one that still used chips. Hell the MSRP on the Clock alone is 30K-ish. Ive ONLY heard streamers when going over to listen to other peoples systems for your info. Ive spent north of 300K in the past 2-3 years on my gear alone and if streaming could come close to a 70K-80K Spinner/Clock combo I WOULD certainly pick one up. I could use the extra space.
I know, sadly some of these folks are just stuck in their ways. They shamelessly continue to peddle their archaic experiences. One of them here listens to Spotify and then make ‘noise’ about compression 😂
“put up the Spotify links showing they have the best DR versions also "with the catalogue number" so we can check it on the DR website.?”
And then those who makes ridiculously outlandish claims like “if streaming could come close to a 70K-80K spinner clock combo”.
They have obviously never heard a system consist of Aurender W20SE, Taiko Extreme or Pinkfaun 2.16 Ultra with MSB, Vivaldi or EMM Labs DAC’s.
Actually you can hear the Aurender W20SE with MSB/Vivaldi at Suncoast. Mike prefers the Disc Spinners/Clock combo himself...but what does he know. Might want to go to the AudioShark Forums to see his comparisons.
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