Some of you may aware of my Garrard 301 project, it’s now very close to completion. The plinth finally shipped from Hungry after 3 months of long wait.
Given my last experience with Hana Umami Red, I would like to take things to the next level. Which brings me to mating low output cart with a SUT. Every review I’ve read so far suggests when the SUT-MC match is right, the end result is heavenly. The bass is right, the midrange is clear, and most importantly, the highs are relaxed and extended—not rolled off.
I am not saying you can’t get great sound without a SUT but it appears with a properly matched SUT, sound can be quite magical.
Thought this would be the right time to get input from experienced users here since I am still contemplating my cartridge and outboard phonostage options.
My preference would be to go with a tube phono…I kinda miss tinkering with tubes :-)
My system, Garrard 301 (fully refurbished), Reed 3P tonearm, Accuphase E-650 with built-in AD50 analog board ➡️ Tannoy Canterbury’s.
Cart and phono under consideration through my dealer,
If the individual stays the journey and has many musical encounters whilst on route. There is inevitably going to be a point where a discovery is made that they have worked out how to produce a end sound that is totally satisfying and unique to their preferences.
When the individual discovers the end sound that is the one that they want to be entertained by forever, or at least until the next hone is added.
I am certainly not going to be the one to suggest their discoveries and choices made are only showing how stupid they are.
I am certainly going to wish them all the very best with the method they have discovered and adopted, that is proving to be a great form of entertainment for them when listening to music, or any other form of healthy entertainment on such a matter.
Atleast 2 if not 3…next few months is going to be about experimenting with carts and phono’s. The only constants would be Garrard / Tonearm and Accuphase. I will likely invest in a SUT once I know my everyday cart.
not yet. but it’s on its way from Switzerland as we speak. It’s the last piece to my “Big Rig” puzzle. I knew when I purchased my Koetsu several years ago that I needed a step up (bad pun intended), but wanted to take my time and spread out the $ hurt.
Cartridge decisions are tough (for me). For my vintage system, I knew i wanted an SPU, so that was fairly easy. For big rig, I initially just bought a Hana EH from my turntable guy (for $475 I think) as a bridge. I subsequently chose Koetsu partly because of the magic and history associated with the brand. But what sealed it for me was when I learned that Sugano-San had voiced his original Koetsu designs on his own modified Garrard 401. So the cartridge picked me!
btw, for bang for the buck mc, I don’t think I’ve seen a single review that wasn’t a rave for the Hana Umami Red. Kat Ourlian, who was at Upscale but now reps SME in London, called me when she heard I was ordering a Koetsu. As I recall, she seemed to be gently pushing me towards the Red, I think in part because my suspicion is their experience working with Koetsu was not perfect. But she’s been a huge proponent of the Red from the day it came out. One other random thought while I’m rattling on, I met the UK rep of Gold Note in an Austin record store, and he was really high on their cartridges (i know. surprise!). But since then, that’s another brand that seems to punch way above their $ weight. (Btw, I have some experience with the brand - both their DS10 dac and PH1 phono stage are in one of my systems, and they’re superb). What Gold Note and Hana have in common is that before their brands were started, they were OEM producers for other brands. So that’s why I think they tend to be lower-priced than some of the competition - they’ve cut the middle step out of the supply chain.
@mdalton IIRC Sugano Sr. also used a Fidelity Research arm on his Garrard. Even "just" my FR64fx and 64S are stunning with Koetsu (I have 6 lol) - and I ended up liking them better with all my other brand cartridges, too (ideal mass compliance matching be damned). Modern arms end up sounding a bit "dead" to me.
Your Reed should be awesome anyways (have a friend who recently got one), just saying :)
Your room and system are absolutely stunning btw - and that blue Garrard is almost beyond this plane of existence
Dear @lalitk: I started to post in this thread in the page 2 and from there I was the only person that touched that " equilibrium " not one but 4 times, here the other 3 that confirm I'm in agreeing up on even that no one posted:
" don't try to help the OP and they do not like to analize the whole subject in objective/subjective equilibrium. "
" Objectivity and subjectivity in equilibrium is the name of my audio " game ". "
" hand tested each part, we don’t let nothing at random everything was measured. Along those chasing " numbers " we made really hundreds of listen tests in several room/system and always testing with the same LP tracks. "
@lalitk obviously that you know that 0.4 db deviaiton in the RIAA of your integrated and that number ( for an SS unit.) is unaceptable but been the design of the 650 was not main focus the phono stage because it's an integrated unit where normally designers look to the amplifier design.
Btw, and after rea ldozens posts by youin the thread you showed not aminimum minimum EQUILIBRIUM. Objectivity just does not exist for you because goes totally againts what you want and these are facts.
Thanks! Yeah, it’s a cool room even before the tubes warm up, lol! Love your stuff - I see you’re rocking Hashimoto HM-7s - feels like I’ve stumbled into another good decision with my Swissonor SUT…
I just looked up Swissoner’s HM-7s retail, wondering what’s sort of wizardry commanding such a steep price? I remember seeing an outlet in US with similar Hashimoto tranny’s for lot less.
There does seem to be plenty of opportunities being taken in the past year by an individual, to enter into a Thread a reference to a particular Phonostage that has been a Commercial Sale Item in the past and is once more being made known it is a available as a Commercial Sale Item as of the present or soon to be ?
Some of the following which is Bracketed is seemingly the posts from a individual with a Vested Interest in the Company producing the Phonostage.
With such a knowledge, I am to assume much being said is a cacophony of bias loaded statements to be used as supporting marketing sales spiel.
For myself being one that is an advocate of using a SUT, the sales spiel being purported, is strongly suggesting a SUT is liked by this Model of a Commercially Offered Phonostage, when married up to the MM Input.
The SUT info is sort of confusing for myself to fully comprehend, when the info is seemingly supplied by an individual spending much of their forum time advising on not using SUT's. Does likes to mean a very worthy challenger to the Phonostages MC Input ?
I know there is regularly references to Translation to American English being a weak point, which leaves the question ?
Is the following what is meant by "analize the whole subject in objective/subjective equilibrium " ?
" don't try to help the OP and they do not like to analize the whole subject in objective/subjective equilibrium. "
" Objectivity and subjectivity in equilibrium is the name of my audio " game ". "
" hand tested each part, we don’t let nothing at random everything was measured. Along those chasing " numbers " we made really hundreds of listen tests in several room/system and always testing with the same LP tracks. "
You are right, your 3160 came with the normal gain but the MC2000 it's not a normal output level MC.
Hmmm, what do you think it should run? Intuitively it doesn't seem out of line to me. I’d guess at $3k it’s probably about 2x cost of parts (includes attached interconnect to eliminate one set of RCA connectors). Compare that to EMIA, which is $3400, or Audio Note which is $4k. I don’t know what transformers they use so hard to compare directly. Definitely more than most that use Cinemag or Lundahl, but that’s not really surprising is it?
I wasn’t trying to knock down the HM-7.. just curious about your rationale to choose HM-7 over the other SUT’s in your elite list. There is very little info available about HM-7 online so I am certain you have done your research before pulling a trigger.
absolutely no offense taken my friend. Hashimoto has a pretty legendary reputation (like Koetsu), and I’ve read over the years lots of comments from Koetsu owners re the magic of the combo (like @mulveling for example). I also have corresponded with Constantin at Atelier 13, from whom I purchased. He’s a big fan - check out his website, he carries very cool stuff. Oh, and the HM-7 is their top of the line, above the 3 and X.
I agree with your assessment and looking forward to your feedback on HM-7. My Allnic phono just showed up. Unboxing tomorrow and some fresh pics. And to hell with Equilibrium and Objectivity 🤣
Just had an “aaha!” moment. Your dealer is Gestalt? Does that put you in Nashville, which also means Atelier 13? And have you ever listened to the Cessaro horns?
I’m in Texas but I did visit Gestalt couple of years ago. Had a great time with Colin. I was fortunate to listen to Cessaro - Opus 1 paired with New Audio Frontier amp and preamp, WVL - SON & Berlin paired with Tron 300B Integrated and Horning - Aristotle paired with Tron and NAF electronics. All great sounding speakers, match made in heaven for flea watts amplifiers. My personal taste, Opus 1 was bit ‘bright’ or ultra detailed. If I ever walked away from Canterbury’s, Berlin or Aristotle big brother Eufrodite Ellipse PM65 would be my preference.
Allnic H-6500 now unboxed, it’s a beautiful piece of hardware. Pics uploaded here,
I built my own SUT specifically for very low impedance cartridges. It started off as a nifty science project and initial results were pretty bad. I tossed it in a corner. A year later my phono stage had to go back to the factory for repair, so I dug out the transformer and started experimenting with different ground patterns and physical locations. My new digital preamp has a high output phono stage built in. The SUT has XLR inputs and the output ICs are one foot long and wired directly into the SUT. The case is made up of exotic hardwoods lined 100% with permalloy. After a few wiring iterations I finally obtained a very acceptable signal to noise ratio and very acceptable performance with one cartridge, the Altas SL. My others were awful. The lesson being that a SUT has to be designed for a specific type of cartridge, in this case very low impedance cartridges under 2 ohms. The sound is super detailed with excellent imaging. It is not quite as dynamic and vibrant as my Seta L phono stage. How much of this is due to the DEQX's phono stage I can not tell, but I have to say I am pleasantly surprised at the performance. I should also mention that the actual transformers are made by Sowter in England. The pair cost a whopping $400.
@pindacAtma-Sphere is an electronics engineer and his opinions are stated as such. He is a lousy sales person and insinuating he is acting as one is a slap in the face.
interesting. I’ve only heard Cessaros once, at Capital Audio Fest last year. Was Wagner II with a TW Acustic system put together by Jeffrey Catlalano of High Water Sound (NYC). Sublime. Have never heard Hornings, but they are intriguing. Heard WVLs at same show - Chicagos or Sons, don’t remember - but was surprised how much I liked them. Another speaker that surprised me at same show, and am guessing you’d like, are Rethms; not that expensive, but really easy to listen to.
IMO, Horns speakers needs way more diligence when it comes upstream electronics. You get that synergy ‘right’ and you”re in for a royal treat. Another brand that always impresses me is Avantgarde’s. I once heard their pairing with Phasemation’s MA-1500 (300B mono’s) and Control Meister Pre…sublime!
I have yet to hear another 300B amp that can rival MA-1500’s. And I have heard lot of 300B’s. Went all out and got one custom made with Hashimoto’s but did not get there, turned out to be a disaster :-)
Dear @lalitk : I'm sorry to insist and disturb you:
" On my last shootout with T+A and Dartzeel, I preferred the synergy between the Accuphase...."
As I said before good for you that your unit outperformed the very well regarded top Dartzeel elctronics but ( as you said ) after dozens of post you showed no single word about MUSIC and you will do some comparattion tests between all the units options you will have on hand.
The 650 outperformed the Dartzeel because?: better transient response? better tigth low bass? better mid-bass or low midrange? better dynamics and lower noise levels? better natural color of the MUSIC?, better resolution?, better harmonics or wider frequency ranges? better high frequency range?, using which LP tracks?
I ask again because outperforms the Dartzeel are " big words " and you follow staying " dead silence " about MUSIC ( not only you but all other gentlemans too. Only hardware. ) and its characteristics in a units comparisons.
SUT arrived today. Much bigger and heavier than expected - serious piece of kit. Rothwell has been fine, but this thing seems serious - I think it weighs north of 7 lbs! Hoping to get it in system tonight.
Raul, I thought you were “against” the Neumann pole. Many are against it. In my 3160, I turned it off. This has not much to do with the subject of the thread. Sorry.
Dear @mdalton : " this thing seems serious - I think it weighs north of 7 lbs! "
Seriously?.You have to know that the Denon AU-1000 weigths 12kg. ( not lbs. ) and has a frequency response from 5hz to 200khz, this is the important and critical spec for any SUT and MUSIC. Do you know the FR of the one you are " surprised "by its 7lbs.?
@doverThe Sowter transformers are a little bit larger than a golf ball and weight a few ounces, maybe 5 or 6. If I had known weight was so important I would have weighed them before I glued them to the permalloy.
With all else being equal (which it almost never is), core size can definitely have an impact on performance. Good luck getting an actual core weight sans all the casing, potting, etc.
EAR MC-3 and MC-4 add weighting to the box so stiff audiophile cables don’t wrestle it around - which is really nice. Almost all the CineMag MC variants use the same size can - but interestingly Quadratic (MC-1) has their CineMags custom made with at least double the usual height (presumably with a proportionally larger core). It featured stronger than usual bass response, along with a slightly relaxed treble (this behavior was consistent across MM stages and cartridges).
Lundahls (9206, 9226, 1931) use amorphous cobalt cores, rather than laminations, which must weigh differently - and I also wonder if this core material explains my aversion to them.
am on road for couple days so only got one lp side in. Way more dynamic, without losing koetsu magic. So very good initial impression. However, have a noise issue (hum at high volume no music). pretty sure it came at 1:30 ratio, 29 db gain, which is too much. Think In gonna have to pop it open and change setting to 1:15 ratio, 23 db gain. Waiting to hear from Constantin who reached out to Swissonor to make sure that’s how it was shipped before I open it up.
Cool!! From my perspective, SUTs actually increase the Koetsu magic. But that hum is not "normal", even at the 30x / 29dB setting, and even with the volume turned up loud (my preferred setting lol). As least, it should not be invasive from your seating position. Anyways 30x SUT's like the Hashimoto will perform well with the 0.3mV Koetsu Platinums, though it's pretty "hot" at that setting. 15x - 20x is ideal. For your Urushi, 30x is way too hot. The 15x setting is ideal for you!
There will be ample opportunities to correct the hum - through various grounding schemes, IC swaps, and making sure all connectors & jacks are tight. Hopefully that can be resolved easily.
@dover : Of course that the transformers are a fraction of those kg..The realsubject of my post is its wide frequency range. I still own that AU-1000 hard wired by me from the transformers to output connectorsandmeasured from around 3hz to over 300khz.
The Denon unit transformers are just " incredible " with no developed hum/noise and way low THD.
No one of the SUTs owned by the gentlemans that posted here comes near to the quality Denon performance even almost no one are flat in such wide frequency range that's unique and in benefit of MUSIC reproduction..
Several audiophiles on this " SUT's party " have any idea what I'm talking about when theyare so happy with those SUT they own that does not permits that the cartridge can shows at its best.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on gain settings. They will serve as quick reference when I am ready to further tweak my system with an SUT. BTW, have you heard of FonoLab. I am conversing with their senior chief engineer/owner on SUT options. Great exchange so far and I am intrigued by Tamura transformers :-)
Dear @mulveling : With all respect you don’t need to be " ironic " or post that kind of " taunt ".
I know who you are and your overall high knowledge levels and I know for sure that you undersand exactly what I posted that from my part was not a way to " taunt " of any one of you but only facts. You already know that no single of your SUTs has that kind of wide FR and you know too the importance of that spec in any SUT.
Btw, the AU-1000 transformers are not silver wired and were made expressely by Tamura exclusively by Denon order. No other Tamura transformers came close to the ones in the AU-1000.
In the vintage years Tamura and Altec were the best transformers as a line models. Some of them silver wired.
Several audiophiles on this " SUT's party " have any idea what I'm talking about when theyare so happy with those SUT they own that does not permits that the cartridge can shows at its best.
That's correct.
MC Step Up transformers are like candy - what flavour do you prefer.
They are not linear.
They have phase shifts.
The variations with different cartridges goes well beyond loading (input impedance) and gain.
If you talk to cartridge designers like JCarr you will find that different core structures as well as materials mate better with some MC's and not others, even if they have the same internal impedance and output. For example - with some cartridges a toroidal MC Step Up may be preferable due to the design of the MC.
For the end user they are a crap shoot. For every cartridge you buy you would need to buy dozens of transformers to trial and find the best.
Price is no indicator and "specs" are not always an indicator as to which is best.
But at the end of the day you can't avoid the shortfalls - distortion, phase shifts.
As I said above MC Step Ups are candy, they provide a rose tinted view of the world. I have a draw full of some of the most highly regarded MC Step Up's - I don't use any.
In the vintage years Tamura and Altec were the best transformers as a line models. Some of them silver wired.
And there are a few others. I have some vintage Altec's from the 50's that have individually annealed layers within the core - that is each layer of the laminated core has a specific annealing process that is different for each layer. Those Altec transformers also have teflon inserted between the windings. There are no transformers today that approach the level of intricacy within these vintage transformers were built and wound. Altec for example I believe had some 200 staff working specifically on transformer R&D, development and testing in the early years. No manufacturer could carry that cost today.
@lalitk : " You can buy SUT with a phase equalizer option. "
well and you can follow adding higher distortion and it’s not only phase but other kind of distortions too. If this is your reproduction system " game " just go a head. Remember my post?: shorter path for the cartridge signal.
Btw, @mulveling " SUTs actually increase the Koetsu magic. "
if for magic you means its quality level performance then your statement is totally false.
No single system link where the cartridge signal must pass through can IMPROVE/ENHANCE that signal in anyway only can degrades.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
