I'm very surprised as well as disappointed. I am always anxious to read the test report and measurements no mater if it's a speaker, amplifier or whatever. Maybe John Atkinson is winding down. If so, they should find someone else who is qualified to do the measurements.
Stereophile, no more bench tests????!!!!
Looks like Stereophile may be cutting back on expenses, no more bench testing for measurements and specs to keep the manufacturers and reviewers honest, it'll make you think twice on what to believe now, without the proof to back it up.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/mark-levinson-no534-power-amplifier
https://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-91-parasound-halo-52
Cheers George
50 responses Add your response
In the latest issue of Stereophile, there are bench tests for many of the equipment that are being reviewed. The Parasound Halo was reviewed by Kal Rubinson in the "Music in the Round" section and there were never measurements done on equipment reviewed in that section. The Mark Levinson am was reviewed in the "Follow Up Section" at the end of the magazine. |
I would like to present another point of view. In my opinion the measurements are meaningless. Long ago it was true that amplifiers and speakers had odd sounds and odd measurements. The measurements never told me what the unit sounded like. These days the amplifiers measure so close to each other. Class D is difficult to measure. Speakers have the greatest distortion of all the components. And the room is the biggest variable of all. An amplifier’s Sound in your room is totally dependent on the room, the cables and the speakers. I only read Stereophile for the opinion and perspective columns. I won’t miss the measurements. I trust my ears. |
tgrisham - I would like to present another point of view. In my opinion the measurements are meaningless..... If the measurements are performed correctly, competently, etc. the measurements would mean something. Albeit I understand what you are meaning, which is that the measurement data may not be indicative of the sound quality or lack thereof. The interpretation of the measurements is what would have meaning. In the case of my DAC, I've read on two different forums where one group states the measurements are exceptionally good and another forum where a different group states the same measurements are terrible. I'd like to see manufacturers publish measurement data in accordance with industry standards, like those of Audio Precision. |
The measurements are still there, IIRC, and I think John/Stereophile now possibly owns the audio precision test bed? Whereas he had it on extended loan originally, from reading his earliest comments on such... George, you are leaping to conclusions that don’t exist, looking for strawmen to prop up so you can punch them out. For those who wish to continue to rail, or take a flaming jog/slow run down imaginary rant road to some imaginary finish line, where you get high fives from all the crowd as you head toward the finish line..... try to understand that in reality, in the complex subject of moving reality, 97% of the population is wrong..and that the design of the brain is to not work -to not think. The human brain’s purpose is to think as little as is required and then go back to not thinking. This keeps the taxation of the brain upon the body’s resources to as low a level as possible. That’s the design spec. Rise up, come to conclusion quickly, then shut down. That’s it. To go back to unconscious autopilot on as much as possible when the moment of thought is concluded. If you pay attention, you can catch yourself doing it just about as often as you breathe. Which is why 97% of the population is always wrong. As the first answer or initial conclusion is invariably way off. Especially since it is tied to prior conclusions and projections of the unconscious as it filters and informs the conscious mind. We truly are a square peg being pounded into a round hole, and mostly unaware of it. Go outside, look out the window, walk down the street, and look for this. It’s right there. Everywhere. Only 3% of the population are truly the drivers of society, if the cow 97 can be convinced in the given scenario (in whatever way). But that is all a complex mess that takes many hours and book length lectures to flesh out. Imagine wearing a t-shirt that says "got cow 97?". Try explaining that to the people who ask....might meet the odd interesting individual. As, at 3% ...it is going to be individuals. And they'll be tough to find. Wear the shirt, give them a sonar ping. |
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A domino of thought conclusion, a nugget of a new position/view on reality... can be found in my prior post, ie...this is why there is such a high level of correlation between pathological religious adherence, and the dogged demands for overt scientism we tend to see on audio forums. The dark ages mid-level religious clerk unconscious mindset did not go anywhere in the past 1000 years. They’re still here.... and devoted to ’science’ and ’engineering’. Scenarios, backdrops, and circumstance change.... but the people and their wiring have not gone anywhere. FYI...that’s not religion and ..FYI, that’s not science. Bigtime bassackward. Read the T-shirt. It says, "Got Cow 97?" |
Reading a recent article by Mr. Fremer on ypsilon momo blocks running around $90K it was noted how well Mr. Fremer enjoyed the sound, yet JA concluded with his measurements saying something akin to: “… its too bad amplifiers costing this much do not measure better.” So now what does one do with conflicting info from two reputed authorities on the same merchandise? The same thing anyone does who is shopping ? for gear with that kind of money in their pocket. Look. Listen. Buy them or move on. Isn’t it always this way with anything audio related? Having compiled systems from both perspectives, strickly off spec sheets, and entirely from auditions, I’ll opt for the latter from now on. This is factual given one caveat, the amp in question MUST be capable, commensurate and synergistic to the loudspeakers they will push. Many here thru the years have vehemently debunked reviews and some reviewers as being inconsequential in the end for mixing and matching up equipment, saying ONLY first hand auditions and personal observations are the true key to conjuring . a high performing audio rig. In fact the slogan in years past around here was to muddle along with the Audiogon shuffle’. Buy, try, flip, repeat until its right or until you’re tired of the treadmill. In another article, on YG upper tier speaker model, an exceptionally well reknown tube amp with plenty of guts was simply not suited for the speakers. They performed better in the opinion of the writer with a far less lauded solid state amp with somewhat less power output. VTL 450 vs Halo JC Is? Dunno off the top of my head but it sounds pretty close. Essentially. JA did find anomalies in the YG models arithmetic yet still felt it was overall a very good measuring loudspeaker that simply worked better with SS power. As for JA general measurements, the thing I looked for was if the maker said one thing and JA discovered another thereby showing the maker to be either a bit too proud of their kit, or quite conservative with its ratings. Simply seeing his notes that it tested well was and is not the Holy Grail for me. In truth, I’m not so sure if I’ve ever used his tests in advance as a deal maker or breaker on gear so far. Once or twice I believe it came out coincidentally that something I bought was later found to have tested very well. It may have been the BC DAC 3 if I’m not mistaken. It’s the sound that butters your bread, and the bread you can spread that makes up the overwhelming majority of purchases anyhow. It likely always will. |
Specs and measurements are useful mainly as guidelines to determine what components are most likely to perform best together. Performance enables good sound but does not fully determine it. You still have to listen once you have decided what to listen to together. Nowadays, integrated amplifiers with DAC and phonos already integrated even can largely solve that problem. Then it’s just speaker integration that specs can still help with. At least that’s how I’ve managed to efficiently assemble multiple good sounding systems in recent years using specifications and measurements. Measurements provided in Stereophile proved to be very helpful with my buying decisions. |
Thst us a tragedy. John A was the best I know at listening, measuring and separating the truth from the B.S.. times Are a changing. I guess they too now need every ad they can get Online services are crippling everyone . The consumer needs even More so to be in step of what s going on . R.I.P Audio Gods of old . |
Both mags are influenced by the industry. Nary a bad review. If you want a system that works for you, then go and demo gear until you find what brings you pleasure. For those of you who do not have this option, I'm not addressing my comments to you and I'm only sorry you can't do that in your region. Specs can be nice for those who don't have the option of dealers. But for me, I'll let my ears tell me what works together and then go in that direction. |
+1 Mapman. As I’ve said in a number of threads here in the past, the main usefulness of specs and especially JA’s uniquely comprehensive measurements is in identifying and **ruling out** candidates for purchase that would be poor matches with other components in the system (e.g., due to impedance incompatibilities, mismatches of gains, sensitivities, power capability, etc.), or with the listener’s requirements (e.g., peak volume capability, perhaps deep bass extension, etc). But not in selecting among candidates which make that cut, where listening is essential. By doing that preliminary screening based on specs and measurements, the randomness of the selection process is decreased considerably, as is the likelihood of expensive mistakes. A second major usefulness of specs and measurements is in diagnosing problems or sonic issues that may arise or become apparent in a system that has already been assembled. As evidence of these usefulnesses of specs and measurements, I couldn’t begin to count the number of threads here in which I and many others have found it useful and in fact necessary to refer to the measurements JA provides in Stereophile. Where else is one likely to find, for example, the output impedance at 20 Hz of a tube-based line-level component, which is essential information in determining impedance compatibility with solid state equipment that it may be asked to drive. Where else is one likely to find how a speaker’s impedance varies as a function of frequency, which is not only important information in determining how much amplifier power is required, but can often be helpful in predicting whether a tube amp or a solid state amp would be the best choice for the particular speaker, or if both kinds of amps might be suitable. And where else can one find a **meaningful** indication of speaker sensitivity, rather than a manufacturer’s spec that may be optimistic by several db by virtue of clever but misleading "specmanship." For example, by basing the spec on whatever frequency produces the best number, as I’ve seen done in a number of cases, or by fudging the number in some other manner. Finally, it is also sometimes possible to rule out candidates from consideration on the basis that some of their specs or measurements are simply TOO GOOD. A classic example being Total Harmonic Distortion numbers that are extremely small fractions of 1%, which depending on other aspects of the amp’s design can be indicative of heavy-handed application of feedback, the likely result being Transient Intermodulation Distortion and excessive amounts of the most objectionable kinds of harmonic distortion. Best regards, -- Al |
Sorry, but I love TAS. I have had an uninterrupted subscription since Issue 20 (December 1980). I bought quite a few back issues before the fire in Sea Cliff and have found the rest, so I have every print issue. I started my Stereophile subscription in 1981 and have every issue since. Not quite a full set. Yes, I still read them cover to cover every month. Kind of a ritual by this point I guess. |
As always, almarg said it all (mapman too). I find especially useful and interesting---and necessary---the input and output impedances of tube pre's and power amps, and the modulus of a loudspeaker's impedance. The interaction between all three can be predicted from those figures, narrowing down likely synergistic pairings to be auditioned in person. |
I agree with Mapman, Almarg and bdp24. I enjoy Stereophile more than any other mag because in addition to the reviewer's subjective impressions, we have measurements. No wise audiophile should buy any component based solely upon measurements. The unwise audiophile ignores the measurements. I especially enjoy it when the impressions of the reviewer are at odds with the measurements which are disclosed after the review is in. Lastly, I think the Stereophile writers are generally very literate and engaging. I enjoy the Absolute Sound as well, but if I could only read one magazine, it would be Stereophile. I also enjoy HiFi News and Record Reviewsout of the UK. It is, in many ways, a distinctly different perspective on audio. |
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This place I use does even more measurements than Stereophile does, but doesn't talk about them as much, and you need to get a password to get into it. and there's not as many either. http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/avtech/index.html Cheers George |
@jmcgrogan2 I read the digital version of Stereophile on Zinio. Many magazines has a digital version that cost much less than the print version. I think it's in all our benefit if theese kind of magazines survives and can afford to pay reviewers to spend weeks or months listening to equipment and report their findings. |
@almarg great summary of the usefulness of measurements! I decided a Long time Ago that I would choose stereo items based on how they sound, or based on other people's descriptions of the sound, not in measurements. Unfortunately I haven't been able to afford many upgrades but the ones I have made has made me happy. |
You get so many (well meaning) here, recommending x amp for someone with x speakers. Without knowing if that amp can drive the impedance/-phase of that speaker. This is where it’s very good to be able to see and understand the measurements and the graphs of all equipment before any (crossed finger’d) recommendations are made to anyone. Because if you do your just ******* against the wind. http://chakranutmusings.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/8/7/11875364/pissing-in-the-wind-image_orig.jpg Cheers George |
I think readers should also take into account the hobby of RTA is a hobby all on it's own. Whether it plays a big part in the hobby of listening to a soundstage or not sometimes is irrelevant. Keep in mind that a lot of guys who are in the RTA hobby challenge if soundstages are even real. Your not going to run out of RTA type forums and on-line presence just because Stereophile makes a publication decision. The more discrete HEA shrinks (finding it's new identity), the more you are going to see parts of HEA go back to their original clans. Hopefully Stereophile can ease it's way back into the mainstream. For me, it's fun to watch it all happen in "real time". Michael Green www.michaelgreenaudio.net |
I agree that The Absolute Sound is a much better publication. As an editor I can see that Stereophile suffers from poor layout and indexing of information. This is a sign of a failing publication. It lives for the adds. Anyway any buyer should consult multiple sources before purchasing a major product. Buyer reviews are very helpful. I wish Audiogon had more of them. I plan to post several this week. |
You can only hope that they remove them. IMO they are worthless. Good or bad measurements doesn’t tell you if the unit sounds good or bad. The manufacturers stats should tell you enough if it will fit into your system or satisfy your needs at the high level. You need to install the piece in your system in your room to know if you like it or not. I would never buy a piece of equipment from a reviewers comments or measurements. How often do you investigate your new cars internals: compression on all cylinders, vacuum pressure, etc.. before buying it? Never! How often do you see these specs delivered in trade rags for $100,000 to multimillion $$$ cars? Never! My ears will tell me if I like the audio piece just like a test drive will tell me if I like the car |
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All is good JA's still kicking, we've still got the bench tests and measurements. Sorry voodoo'ist for getting your hopes up, you'll just have to stick another pin in the doll. Re: Missing MeasurementsSubmitted by John Atkinson on May 3, 2018 - 9:27pm It wasn't possible for Larry Greenhill, who now lives in California, to ship this amplifier to New York in time for me to measure it. John Atkinson Cheers George |
Yes, I still read them cover to cover every month. I remember reading HP's TAS and JGH's stereophile cover to cover as well, sometimes 2 or 3 times over trying to read between the lines. This was before the bigger glossier versions, full of ads. These days it takes me at most 5 minutes to go through most TAS. |
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Lucky for you George! Yes, that in conjunction with listening, repeated and measured over and over if necessary is the only way to get the best. "snake oil" voodoo should be kept out of it, as most of it is only praying on the technically challenged, hoping they’re gullible enough to spend the big bucks on cheap fancy lable’d rubbish that does nothing. Cheers George |
Someone wondered if "people still read these glossy rags?" As TAS printed recently, due to someone 'writing in' and asking if TAS was doing okay, TAS responded that their PRINTED subscribership is actually UP, and that TAS was doing well with print. I read EVERY month, the printed copies of TAS, Stereophile, Hifi Choice Hifi+ and HiFi News. There is nothing like sitting in bed with a "glossy rag" (or 3 or 4 of them) and NOT having scroll through electronic pages that light up the night. (And yes, my wife is beside me with her tablet (I have one too) viewing Facebook). |
So, the reasonable and open conclusion is that reasonable thinking people tend to to find themselves always attacking and undressing/adressing illiteracy and it’s projections. 10x the work for almost no results. Over and over, explicitly so, as illiteracy and it’s projections does not have the capacity to stop what it is doing, until it reaches round and gets itself some minimal form of enlightenment ("is this warm soft clay I see before me?"*), so it can get past it’s dunderheadedness. Maybe. We can only hope, but the record constantly says otherwise. In the meantime, reasonable, thinking people... either put up with them, ignore them, or leave the forum, or some combination thereof.. *("I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown.....") https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOKn33-q4Ao It is interesting to note that intelligence can be described by that which is abstract in both view, tendency and capacity, whereas those who don’t know science but project the idea of it’s use, do so in a frightfully linear manner. Even an abacus or a small pile of rocks can be utilized calculate but that has squat to do with mind and abstract capacity. Science has no facts and no bibles - it has theory and potentials in projections. And that, in a nutshell, is the never ending ever changing advancement of humanity and the sciences. Not this junk we see in linear minded insanity - which is spectrally on the dense side. People play it safe when they reach limits in self, it is a human thing to do, based on the ape body and it's controls in place for survival. Dem rose colored glasses, they be in everythin'.... |
teo_audio: "In the meantime, reasonable, thinking people... either put up with them, ignore them, or leave the forum, or some combination thereof." Umm, you might want to wake up for your second of reflection and rethink your reference to "reasonable, thinking people" of which I'm sure you think applies to you. Honestly, I've always just put up with or ignored your type :) |
