I am running a pair of Martin Logan ESL 13A speakers (24-23,000 Hz). I would have thought with two 10" woofers there would be more bas (the base level dial on the rear of the speakers doesn’t seem to cut it either).
In the past I had a pair of ML Spires (29-23,000 Hz) with only one 10" woofer that had so much base, I sold my pair of ForceField 30s. Not the case with the 13A’s.
I don’t have a lot of room, maybe 16" or so square and I was wondering about a pair of SVS Micros. Do you think they would complement the 13As or do I need something bigger?
Martin Logan has come out with a few new subs lately; do you think I should keep in the ML family?
Hoping to come in under $2K, so used is fine. Thanks all!
I should also mention I’m limited on space so placement would likely have to be on the inside or the outside of the main speakers (same back wall).
@grislybutterThe Balanced Force series are much better. They are not perfect, but they are better than most. The enclosure creates distortion in two ways, shaking and vibrating. Both types occur around certain frequencies. Shaking is caused by unopposed driver forces. When the cone is pushed forward the enclosure is pushed backwards. This is completely cured in balanced force designs. Then there is vibration in the walls of the enclosure. This is not so easy to stop. It takes intelligent design, over construction and the right materials. The problem for commercial manufacturers is this is expensive to do and makes their products uncompetitive in the markets they serve. The Magico Q series subs cost $36K!
@big_gregYou are right, this is a diversion, but @navyachtsproblem has been successfully addressed and his interest has been diverted to the subwoofer question. I am nowhere near the most intelligent person on this website, but I have been using subs with ESLs since 1978 and building subs since 1987. Experience being the teacher that it is I feel qualified to deal with his situation. ESLs are like the most beautiful girl you wish you never met. It is easy to make them sound terrible putting additional requirements on associated equipment, particularly amplifiers and subwoofer systems.
@mijostyn I can't continue to look at the link you provide, it disappears on its own and goes to a rattle snake and other photos! Are your subs dual opposing one in each end? How much volume is in the boxes? What's that stack of lumber you have in your shop? Actually you have several stacks. Lumber is expensive unless you source your own like me.
@mijostynThat's really neat that you like going down rabbit holes in pursuit of what you consider perfection, but that doesn't sound like what the OP was asking about.
Making deep bass accurately is very difficult because the laws of physics are stacked against us. Bass is also vague relative to midrange, it not as easily localized if at all and the timbre of bass instrument is determined by their contributions to the midrange. I cross to my high frequency transformer 500 Hz 2nd order and with everything else turned off you can still clearly make out most bass instruments. Synthesizers are the only exception I know of. A great subwoofer system is felt rather than heard. To get the maximum "feel" out of a subwoofer system you have to run it up to 80-100 Hz, painfully close to it becoming obviously audible. Doing so requires very steep slopes, above 10th order to minimize the subwoofer systems contribution to the midrange. Such steep slopes are only practical digitally. You can cross to the sub much lower and use a shallower slope, but you miss out on a lot of the feeling that goes with percussion and bass instruments. Anyone who has been to a live performance in a smaller Jazz club like the Blue Note or Birdland in NYC knows what I am talking about. Recreating that kind of bass in a residential environment takes a lot of power, a lot of subwoofer and digital equalization. Most systems are down by at least 6 dB, usually much more when they get down to 20 Hz. This is at the listening position, not one meter. To get realistic bass in most rooms requires adding at least 10 dB sloping up going down to 20 Hx. That requires 10 times the power! Another big problem occurs in the time domain. It is important that the signals from the various speakers arrive to you at the same time and in phase if that "feel" is to remain intact. You can move speakers around till you are blue in the face,you will never achieve the accuracy of a measurement microphone and digital delay capability. In many cases the correction is done by computer, even better. All this tech is now readily available and at a reasonable price. A $950 MiniDSP SHD Studio and two good quality DACs like Benchmark Media Systems will do the job for most systems. Such a set up will turn a run of the mill Mid Fi system into a stunning performer. Going up the ladder is Anthem and ARC followed by Trinnov and finally DEQX.
@big_gregyou think? Just because your subs are not at max volume does not mean they do not resonate. Some enclosures are better than others, but the only commercial subwoofer that are virtually resonance free is the Magico Q series subwoofers and they are balanced force. There is no other commercial subwoofer you can integrate with ESLs satisfactorily. They all stick out like a sore thumb. All the subwoofers I have ever made except the final model have stuck out like sore thumbs. In addition you can not satisfactorily integrate subwoofer with a 2 way crossover and digital signal processing.
mijostyn continues to take the time to share a great deal of his practical experience gained from his interesting system and room relationship. Also well done. I have great admiration when it comes to his immaculately dust free well appointed shop. Absolutly stunning.
IME, if one uses the simple crawl test and low frequency test tones to locate their rooms best sounding room mode. Positioning even a modestly priced -3dB subwoofer with basic controls in, can have quite an entertaining low frequency presentation at least at the listening position. Cost? A long pair of economical interconnects.
With the exception of a four sub array, I've found poor room positioning to be the most common reason for poor subwoofer performance.
@mijostynI understand the principle behind dual opposing drivers. There are many ways to get good sound, with some better than others. That doesn't mean all other options are "wrong". I rarely listen at loud volumes and have 4 subs. They are never straining, which leads to distortion. They all have their volume at around 20 - 30 percent of maximum. They are well integrated, so that with most music, you wouldn't detect their presence. The same results can be achieved in a small room with a couple of smallish sealed subs if setup correctly, with great results and little or no distortion.
@navyachtsAbout 3 feet, but do yourself a favor and be happy with your newly programmed MLs. Don't stress your finances. Save up and when you have more than enough, go for broke.
@mijostynOK, I would have to sell the MLs first, then it looks like I would need to cough up another $5K for the 545s then another $4k for subs. I really don't know if there's any funds at this stage in my life to cough up. I could possibly downgrade my N200 streamer and my M1 DAC, that would help cover the upgrade to the new speakers....UGH!
@navyachtsIf you really are attached to ESLs (I certainly am) The Sound Labs 545s give you 45 degrees of horizontal dispersion without curving the diaphragm which is a very non linear approach. This is why ML has to cross out of the ESL portion at 250 hz, to prevent the diaphragm from distorting. The 545 does not have this problem, but IMHO still benefits from crossing over to subwoofers at 100 Hz. You will get better bass, reduce Doppler distortion and greatly increase your headroom. 105 dB is attainable this way with the right amplifier, louder than anyone needs to go. If you were crazy and wanted more, go with 645s. If you want a full range line source which gives you a more powerful system with larger more life like imaging go with 645-8s which is what I use. These are 8 feet tall and have a terrible WAF. The 545s will sneak by. You will certainly notice more detail in bass instruments. The journey never ends. Most of us are damped by finances, but as soon as the money comes in
@mijostynOK sure, so how do you suggest I go about this process of getting a pair of Sound Lab 545s? I was hoping to be near the end of this journey, but I'm still open to suggestions!
@navyachtsYamaha NS 5000s? What you really need are a pair of Sound Labs 545s and Subwoofers. If you get the subwoofers for your MLs the switch will be easy.
@mijostynLove Fourplay and Bob James, who occasionally comes to town. I always wanted to see Chuck Leob, but with his passing, I won't be seeing him or Fourplay any time soon.
I took my wife on a speaker demo tour for our 10th anniversary (yes, she is an awesome sport!) here around the Pacific Northwest and listened to numerous pairs of speakers and narrowed it down to Kef R11s and Legacy Signature SEs. I had both at my house and returned/sold them.
Having had Martin Logan ESLs in the past, I stuck my neck out and purchased the 13As unheard although I listen to a pair of the 11As on the anniversary tour and didn't like them at all, but kept my fingers crossed on the 13As. So, after all that, I don't think I'll be changing speakers anytime soon, although I would love to hear the Yamaha's NS-5000's, but nothing local, as usual.
@navyachtsThat is quite the combo, Alice in Chains and Herb Albert. The Grunge seems to be serious bad luck. There were suicides in all three bands. Probably a good thing to stick with Herb Albert. You should try Fourplay, Bob James band, Smooth Jazz at it's best.
@big_gregTurn up the volume on your SVS subs with a bass heavy number and put your hand on the subwoofer. That vibration you feel is distortion you are hearing. Using two opposing drivers to cancel out Newtonian forces is one way to limit that vibration you feel. With proper enclosure construction and balanced force design you can create a subwoofer that does not vibrate at all excepting for the driver's cone https://imgur.com/gallery/building-resonance-free-subwoofers-dOTF3cS
Hmm, well I've been there a couple of times just not sure when I will be again.
I was just in Seattle this past weekend for a triple header. The wife and I took in the Jimi Hendrix memorial, dropped into the Central Saloon (birthplace of Grunge - first performances by Nirvana, Alice in Chains & Soundgarden). Then finished off the day with an awesome show put on by Herb Albert over at Jazz Alley.
Maybe if you're ever up this way you could pop in and give me some advice.
That sounds like bad advice. There are a number of different subwoofers that should work fine in your space. A smallish sealed sub (or better - 2) will fill in the bottom end and shouldn't create issues if set up correctly.
Are you in Washington? I have 4 systems in different rooms with different speakers. Some are SVS. None of them are "balanced force" and they all sound great. I'd be happy to have you visit and listen.
@rbull11@bottomzoneI was originally interested in the SVS micros, but I have since been advised that subs using balance forced s would be most beneficial in my circumstance. Kinda limits my choices and stretches my budget at present, so I’m going to try and live with what I have at this point. (see my recent post Subwoofer Update).
I use 1 svs micro 3000 and I placed it under the foot of my bed and can't be seen. It adds all the bass I need with my AE 509's. It gives me that little extra I was looking for.
JL Audio subs, while not cheap, can't be touched and their new Dominion subs are a steal for the price!! Also, REL(I have one in my system) makes great subs.
I was joking with the "exactly like mine" comment to point out that every listening space is utterly different. Bass is bass, and my suggestion is to get a couple of used RELs (that are returnable perhaps) as the high level input from the power amp is cool...no long runs of signal cable required. For 2K you can easily get 2 new RELs if you desire a warranty. My RELs are from a much older "Q" line..a Q150e 150 watt front firing (I own 2 of these, one is part of my video system), and a Q108MK2 100 watt downfiring. Had 'em for years, they work perfectly, cost about 200 bucks each used.
Bass goes everywhere...it simply cannot be directional by nature, and note that many subs (including a couple of mine) have down facing drivers...you could suspend subs from the ceiling (ha) but if bass gets to your ears, it's getting everywhere else. I have 2 RELs in my main rig and after reading something about WIlson suggesting the Loki's placement as having its voice coil in line with the bass drivers in the mains (makes sense), I adjusted a sub (front firing) to be in line with that suggestion. The other sub is off to the right...a standing wave defeater. This works and I suggest this setup to anybody with a listening space and gear EXACTLY like mine.
There you go. Do exactly what I said with the deep bass boost. You have to dive in. Just keep the volume low and you can not hurt anything. There is also nothing you can't undo.
@mijostynAnthem finally got back to me on this. It seems that adjustments can be made with the ML Perfect Bass Kit by enabling the Professional Mode. I'm not sure if I'll know what I'm doing once in the program, but at least it's a start. Here is their response:
There are many YouTube videos that exist to aid you with the ARC process, however these tend to be more product specific. You are welcome to share your ARC file so that we may take a look and make the adjustments you are looking for. Be advised flattening the response curve does usually result in "lower" bass, but there are ways to adjust this such as using the Room Gain and Deep Bass Boost settings in ARC Genesis.
The location of the mains has zero to do with the subs unless there's a phase issue. Position the mains where they sound good and then do the same with the subs. Done.
Hey navyacht, I failed to mention that new Hsu woofers are well within the price range that you mentioned in your post. Hope this is helpful info. Btw Hsu is pronounced "Shoe". That's easy:)
Just a suggestion that you may wish to speak to Dr. Poh Ser Hsu, owner/designer,builder of Hsu Research located in Anaheim, Ca. He has been designing and building subs for over 30 years and earned his Phd in engineering at MIT. It's still a family business and when I call Dr. Hsu usually is the one answering the phone. A very humble genius who is passionate about his work. I have two of his units and they are the bomb. I'm not sure if it is permitted for me to enter the website on this post but you can easily find him on the internet by searching for Hsu subwoofers. Give him call.
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