Subwoofer advice sought

The Totems do not go to 28hz to any meaningful degree although that's noted as an "in room" spec meaning room boundaries are needed to get anything close to that (another spec on the site lists it as 30hz). There might be a small amount of sound at that frequency but a sub is certainly the answer. I use 2 older RELs in my system but you can certainly start with one and add another later as I did, and it does make a big difference to use multiple subs for a more balanced room sound. A good sub (even only one) "charges" the room and provides a sense of reality to a system as music has ambient stuff lurking in lower frequencies that are lifelike and make everything seem more real, thus enhancing the main speakers sound.

As an owner of a REL S5 SHO I think REL's are amazing subs for 2 channel. Just make sure you match the right REL to your Totems. If your Totems go down to 28 hz as another member posted here, then you probably need to go up the REL ladder a bit. At least to a 510SE or maybe the 812SE. The REL website has a tool that helps you match the right REL to your speakers.

Good luck and be sure to post your thoughts once you make the purchase! :)

@big_greg I have not heard a DBA system and I was really commenting on the first response to the post stating:

Low bass improves the sense of envelopement, feeling like you are in the soundstage instead of it being just in front of you.

I think DBA is probably a good way to combat room nodes and help distribute bass evenly. Good to hear it doesn't envelope you and place you inside the sound stage which would be an unnatural presentation in my view. I would like to check it out sometime, although it would been completely impractical to integrate into my mainly listening space which isn't dedicated to listening - it's my living room. Life's a balancing act of priorities ;-)

That first response was of course me. There's people here for whom no amount of explanation or clarification will ever be enough but since you've muddied it up misinterpreting me yet again I might as well try. 

"Low bass improves the sense of envelopment, feeling like you are in the soundstage instead of it being just in front of you." In hindsight for those short on imagination it might have been better to have said recording venue instead of soundstage. 

Because it seems you've misconstrued me to having said DBA makes it feel like the instruments and singers are way off to your left and right and behind you like some quadrophenia acid trip. When all I really said was it increases your sense of envelopment. 

Which you will know when you hear one, and I would be happy to demonstrate, if we don't have to worry about killing each other being in the same room. Relax you will be perfectly safe. I'm BLS certified which will come in handy when you pass out from the shock of realizing I actually know what I'm talking about.

@three_easy_payments If you're ever in the area and we don't have to worry about killing each other by sitting in the same room I'd be happy to let you listen. My system is in my living room. It's not ideal, but it works. 

@big_greg  I have not heard a DBA system and I was really commenting on the first response to the post stating:

Low bass improves the sense of envelopement, feeling like you are in the soundstage instead of it being just in front of you.

I think DBA is probably a good way to combat room nodes and help distribute bass evenly.  Good to hear it doesn't envelope you and place you inside the sound stage which would be an unnatural presentation in my view. I would like to check it out sometime, although it would been completely impractical to integrate into my mainly listening space which isn't dedicated to listening - it's my living room.  Life's a balancing act of priorities ;-)

@three_easy_payments We're in total agreement that there's more than one way to get good bass and that different people will enjoy different things.  I've enjoyed good bass in my system with no subwoofers.  I have three other systems that all have one subwoofer.  One of the best systems I've heard had two subwoofers.

Using four subwoofers, I don't feel like the bass is enveloping in a surround sound way.  The soundstage is still very well defined, perhaps even better defined.  The performers are there in front of me, including the bass player.  If I'm listening to Yes for example, I can tell exactly where Chris Squire's bass is coming from.  It's not in surround sound, it's coming from a specific spot on the stage in front of me.  The sound fills my room though in a way that is the closest thing I've felt to live music in my system.  And yes, I enjoy it very much.

I'm not sure my words are adequate to describe the distinction between the surround type "3-D" listening experience you seem to think is created and what I experience.  Have you experienced a system with multiple subwoofers? 

@big_greg  You're exactly right...the bass is traveling throughout the venue even if it's originating from one side of the stage.  This is the effect of the venue or the room.  What you are experiencing is the room effect on bass.  They aren't creating it at the concert by putting bass signals in an array throughout.  You have a room as well that you listen to music within.  Look, I totally understand why a DBA would work and help counter the effects of uneven bass distribution in your room.  My point is that this technique is dealing with room acoustics and the whole point isn't to place the listener inside or "enveloped" within the soundstage. But like everything else, just pick what you enjoy listening to most and the way you enjoy it implemented most.  There is no wrong way.  

I don't often see 4-6 double bass players scattered throughout the venue to immerse you in their bass.

If you've ever been to a rock concert or especially an EDM show, the bass travels throughout the venue and you feel it as much as hear it.  That's one of the great things about having multiple subs is that it feels like live music.  I don't recall ever hearing the bass only coming from the direction of the stage at a live concert.  Of course it's been a while since I've been to a show, perhaps my memory is playing tricks on me.

Just adding in.  DBA setups do have the potential to give extraordinary bass.  If you have the money and ability to implement 4+ subwoofers in a sealed room with proper inverting cables or circuitry for the rear subwoofers, then go for it!  If you just want to beef up the bass/sub-bass on your Totems, then getting a nice single subwoofer is like a better choice.

I have heard Rel subwoofers.  They are nice and clean and have very good tonal definition down in the bass area.  Extremely clean.  But they are not powerful and meaty sounding subs.  If you want more of a meaty and gritty audiophile sub, I would look first at Rythmik ported subs.  There are others, such as Hsu and SVS.  SVS has a distinct tone that is popular with consumers of Best Buy, but it's kind of a one-note-wonder and doesn't have good resolution (in my opinion). 

The "subwoofer output" on your integrated is likely just a full range output.  I don't see any mention of a crossover inside and there are only 2 tubes.  The Vandersteen is an option if you want a try crossed over subs that blocks all bass from your main speakers.  The Rythmik would be if you were fine driving your Totems "full range" and just wanted a sub to fill in the missing sub-bass area.

Your Totems already reach down to 28HZ
What you need is impressive depth below that.

I researched subwoofers for over a year before buying.
What I learned was one big powerful cone is better than multiple small cones or passive radiators.
If I were buying now this one goes to 17hz or so they say.
Even if only practically 20hz... MUCH more oomph than the two referenced above.
https://www.svsound.com/products/pb-2000
Generally speaking you need a 12" cone to get to 20hz.
Listen to the attached video !

BTW I ended up going over the top with this;
https://hometheaterreview.com/definitive-technology-trinity-subwoofer-reviewed/
One of the best subwoofers ever.
Earth shaking in movies (literally) yet clean and pure for music.

Its just fun to watch peoples jaws drop ;)

I tend to agree with @erik_squires on this one (but I wouldn't call it a cult - we all have a preference for how we enjoy experiencing sound and music).  Are we trying to envelope ourselves within a soundstage instead of having it presented front of us?  I actually thought the biggest merits of a DBA approach was not necessarily to envelope yourself in the sound (like you may want in a movie) but rather to combat problematic room nodes....so it's really a form of acoustic treatment and not creating a fake soundstage that envelopes you in it. 

why stop with DBA?  Might as well just go ahead with full-on 3D immersive surround sound and go for the full monty of sound envelopment, right?  Afterall, if you aren't setting a reference at producing a live acoustic music sound stage then just immerse yourself for the experience.  We all like music presented in various way and there's no wrong answer....but being immersed in the music in an unnatural way isn't for me.  All venues have their unique acoustics and associated challenges...I don't often see 4-6 double bass players scattered throughout the venue to immerse you in their bass.

There is also Vandersteen.
His subs use a high pass filter between the amp and preamp and offloads all the power draining lower frequencies from the amp to the sub. The newest model, Sub 3, offers an equalizer to compensate for room aberations.
Mr. V also sees the beauty of using multiple subs in achieving natural sound.
Bob

I see the DBA cult has already arrived.  I've posted my thoughts here so I don't have to keep repeating myself here:

https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2020/04/how-to-not-buy-subwoofer.html

Please message me directly if you have any questions as the DBA cult has worn me down. 

Truly deep, accurate bass does indeed improve imaging, midrange, and treble, and contribute to a sense of envelopment. It improves midrange and treble because of the way the ear senses volume balance. Two speakers can easily produce enough midrange and treble, its deep bass they can’t do. Low bass improves the sense of envelopement, feeling like you are in the soundstage instead of it being just in front of you. This happens because our sense of space is tied in to very low frequency sound. At very low bass frequencies the wave lengths are much longer than any room you will find in any normal home. 40 feet or longer. So we hear that, our brains assume we are some place big. 

Okay so that explains the why.

Now, how to get this. The good news is its easy. The bad news is it can’t be done with one.

Every speaker no matter what is in the room which as mentioned above is smaller than the lowest bass wavelengths. Because of this they reflect and bounce back and cancel and reinforce. The areas where they cancel and reinforce change depending on the frequency, and where the sub is, and where you are. But they are always there. For every sub. No matter what.

This is why with one sub you have all these problems moving it around trying to get the best smoothest most even bass. You never can get there because all you can really do is move the modes around. You never can get rid of them. Its impossible.

So what you do instead is use a lot of subs. The more the better. Four is pretty good. Then you put them in different locations. This spreads the modes around. Lots of very small modes is way better than a few really big ones.

Its called a Distributed Bass Array. DBA. Do a search. Audiokinesis makes one called the Swarm. Doesn’t have to be a Swarm. Any four subs will work just fine. DBA. Totally the way to go.
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367