Congrats. I have similar same size small room with Kef ls50s and one game but measly Klipsch sub 8” albeit with two additional 8” passive radiators for three drivers total facing side forward and side and I know how good even that sounds.
I bought that specific compact sub with the 3 drivers facing different directions for reasons similar to why one would run multiple separate subs. I have the bass dialed in at my main listening spot and it stays fairly consistent at other locations as well. I suspect the 3 drivers facing different directions helps.
I can’t envision 4 separate subs in such a small room but once set up well why not? |
Hello mizike,
RCA cables are only utilized to connect line-level outputs from other components to the Swarm’s Dayton SA1000 sub amp’s line-level Left/Right and LEF inputs. Single lines of speaker wire are utilized to connect all four subs to the Dayton sub amp’s two sets (A and B) of pos./neg. speaker-level output terminals in a series/parallel configuration.
Series/parallel configuration consists of a single speaker wire from the sub amp’s A pos. output terminal to sub#1’s pos input terminal, a single speaker wire from the sub amp’s A neg. output terminal to sub#2’s neg. input terminal and a third single speaker wire from sub#2’s pos, input terminal to sub#1’s neg. input terminal to complete the series/parallel circuit for subs #1 and #2. Subs #3 and #4 are also connected in series/parallel configuration to the sub amp’s B pos.and neg. output terminals in the same manner. Any signal loss caused by long speaker wire runs are compensated for through increasing the Dayton sub amp’s volume/level control. Series/parallel hookup also allows the Dayton amp to be under an overall single 4 ohm load, even though each of the individual 10” subs are rated at 4 ohms, and therefore the amp is able to output a total of 1,000 watts to power them. The overall result in my system and room is mono bass from 4 relatively small subs at 12”x14.5”x28” and 40 pounds, that Is sufficiently fast, smooth and detailed to blend seamlessly with my very fast, smooth and detailed Magnepan 3.7i main speakers. At the same time, the total bass output is capable of being as deep, powerful and dynamic as the source material calls for, down to 20 Hz +/- 3 db and at an output SPL of up to 115 db.
The 4-sub DBA concept has proven to be an excellent complement to my main speakers, since it provides the high quality, powerful and dynamic bass below about 35 Hz that my main speakers, having a rated bass extension of 35 Hz, are not capable of providing. I also realize that my main speakers having a bass extension of only 35 Hz is actually a blessing in disguise. This is because I’m certain that having 4 independently positioned subs in a distributed bass array in my room results in superior bass quality performance than 2 bass transducers, being restricted to being positioned in the same relative room position and panel as my main speakers’ other transducers, would be capable of producing, even if they were planar-dynamic dipole panels with bass extension down to 20 Hz +/- 3 db and capable of doing so at a 115 db SPL
Tim
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Just got a swarm debra system, using dayton SA1000, questions for those who have set these up.
1) What are the effects of blocking the ports, why would you want to do that?
2) I'm setting the amp at 90 degree phase, 75 hz freq, not using the EQ. What settings do you use and why? Playing with gain around 10-11 oclock.
3) Does anyone wire 1 of the drivers reverse polarity?
4) All my drivers are facing the wall, about 1-2 inches out. One of them is corner loaded. Just initially set them this way, I know the instructions/procedures, but I wanted to see performance by just dropping them in place based on my room diagram, Jim gave me positioning based on that. Thoughts?
5) SA1000 thumps on shut down, gain control all the way down. Preamp feeding it had been set to an unused input, 0 volume. Not sure I like that. Shouldn't do this?
This DBA system integrates very smoothly, and does not smear the mains. In fact it compliments them much more then other subs I've tried.
Thanks for the help.
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@dnicolCongrats on the Swarm!
Yes, the DBA does integrate very smoothly. By far the best subwoofer solution I have experienced.
I will try my best at this using quotes from Duke LeJeune (Swarm DBA inventor):
1) Sealed mode is generally better for smaller rooms, and ported mode is generally better for large and/or open-floorplan rooms. I use one sub ported (the one that's in a front corner) and the other three are sealed, and the sealed sub in the very back of the room is in reverse polarity – just to give an example.
My room is 14 x 17 and this is what I do.
2) As a general ballpark starting point, I suggest the parametric EQ controls be set for minimum effect: Frequency at 18, Bandwidth at .1, and Level at 0, or about 2:00 on the dial. On the low-pass filter controls, set the Phase at 0, and again as a ballpark starting point, you might try Frequency between 8:00 and 9:00, and Gain at perhaps 10:00. On the back of the amp, turn the Subsonic Filter ON for now (and consider keeping it on if you listen to vinyl), and turn the Bass Boost OFF if you plan to use the subs mostly or all ported, and ON if you plan to use them mostly or all sealed. These are ballpark suggestions just to get you started. You will have a lot of power and output capability on tap, and there is no combination of settings that will overdrive the woofers unless you hit them with very high power signals below 18 Hz in vented mode with the subsonic filter disengaged.
I also follow this but have left phase at 0.
I also found the need to alter the gain depending on the mains I run (higher with efficient speakers).
3) - See response to 1)
4) I have 2 subs elevated, each one an inch from the wall and facing the ceiling. The floor subs are an inch from the walls but only because I face them parallel to the walls. Otherwise at least 3 inches clearance is advised.
5) I had 2 Daytons thump on shutdown. One was a refurbished unit. The other was brand new. Still working with Parts Express on this.Will let you know what happens.
Do you hear
a mechanical buzz from your Dayton?
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I have dual Daytons and both are dead silent
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Yes, the Dayton is not operating correctly if there's a thump, buzz or hum. With my AK Debra, I found the overall bass sounded boosted if any of the subs were positioned within about 2 feet of a corner. It won't harm anything even if you put a sub in each corner. I just prefer my bass powerful, dynamic, smooth, fast, accurate, detailed and natural without overemphasis.
I tried wiring 1 of the subs in reverse polarity as the procedures suggest, one at a time, but without noticing a positive effect. I run all of mine in-phase and ported. My goal was to set the level and crossover frequency both as low as possible with the bass still sounding powerful, smooth, detailed and natural to me. My main speakers only have a rated bass extension of 35 Hz so I run them full range with the Dayton's level set at about 11:00 (slightly below half volume) and the crossover set at 40 Hz.
This results in the deep bass being perceived as seamlessly blended or integrated with my main speakers but the bass is still very powerful, dynamic, natural that can even be a bit startling on music and HT when the source content dictates for sudden powerful bass reproduction.
Welcome to the DBA club, dnicol, have you paid your yearly dues yet?
Best wishes,
Tim
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Not hearing any mech buzz from the SA1000 during operation, dead quiet, only thump on shutdown, a few times it did not do it though, might be because I'm changing the preamp out to unused output before shutting down the dayton that's doing it.
Also agree with Subsonic Filter on and Bass Boost off.
@noble100 I see you're running a 326S, (380S here) are you splitting an unbalanced out for the SA1000? I'm also going to try setting xover point lower as well. I do like the phase straight up at 90 though.
I tried setting 1 at reverse polarity, didn't do much for me. 1 of the drivers is loaded right at a rear corner, which was suggested to me. Ended up raising off the floor about 3 feet and against side wall like the others, much better.
No HT here, and no single listening position, trying to make the entire room sweet spot since that's how I listen, these really help that effect. |
dnicol: "
@noble100 I see you're running a 326S, (380S here) are you splitting an unbalanced out for the SA1000? I'm also going to try setting xover point lower as well. I do like the phase straight up at 90 though." Hello dnicol, The 326S has l+r unblanced outputs and I'm using those to connect to the SA1000. BTW, I'm thoroughly impressed with all the ML preamps I've heard thus far: 326S, 380S, 526 and No. 32. Tim |
This old thread popped up recent and its good, because this is still just about the best-kept secret in audio. Everyone needs to know, because where else in audio can you get bona fide SOTA anything for only about $3k? With bass you can! What everyone used to think was the hardest thing to do, turns out to be easy and even relatively inexpensive. Improves even million dollar Wilsons!
Sorry. Couldn't resist. But it does! 😂😂😂 |
Well it certainly improved my sub million dollar LRS, LS50s, Ologe5s, B&W Matrix 801S2s and now my new Harbeth SHL5+40ths.
A Harbeth 40.2 review in The Absolute Sound pointed out that while this speaker does not need subwoofers, it will greatly benefit using them because of it’s really good bass response.
I am still just wrapping my head around how the DBA does what it does.
But it makes sense that the quality of bass response in a speaker will only be augmented by a DBA (or any subwoofer configuration).
Trash in trash out?
@noble100 - Nice to hear from you! Thought you went elsewhere.
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Hello all,
You all know my excellent experiences with the Swarm DBA by now. I had spent an even $1 million on my system at the time but wasn’t quite satisfied with the bass performance. So, I splurged another $3K on the Swarm and suddenly my system actually sounded like a million bucks, plus at least about another $3K and tax.
I think we could describe how well it performs until we’re all blue in the face and few would believe us, it’s too good to be true. But I know almost anyone would be completely convinced how incredibly well it performs by even just a brief audition. One listen is probably worth all our words of praise combined.
Later,
Tim
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Ok, just got my swarm set up. Wanted to tweak my 2 channel first in the new room 27x17x10 all one room. Set up in a golden ration configuration Twin Dayton amps ( dead quiet) I have the 2 subs behind the listening position with the port plugs removed . Just by going by Dukes recommended setup sounds pretty good but know there is much more. Any recommended software for the IPad Pro, I phone ? I wouldn’t mind spending a few bucks on the program if it was easy enough to use. Any songs that make your swarm really shine? I was playing Malia and the Ozone percussion gang and it was pretty impressive. Thanks for any tipsRuss |
That was my experience, immediately excellent results from the first haphazard placement. Tried a lot of things- moving subs (including the crawl method), reversing and adjusting phase, even tried different series/parallel to get 4, 8 and 16 ohms. Tremendous amount of work to learn almost all the difference is in setting crossover and level. Next would be impedance. Then springs. Moving the subs around, phase, etc, hardly noticeable at all.
You can mess with apps, a lot of guys just love tech, but I wouldn't waste my time. The problem is the equal loudness curves. The lower we go the more the volume levels converge. And these things go low! What this means is you can tweak and do whatever to get perfect results by whatever meter you use, and even get it to sound absolutely perfect. At one volume level. The minute you turn it down, there went the bass. Or turn it up, oh now too much. Its like you need a continuous loudness adjustment.
Also some recordings have near zero really low bass. If you adjust levels using one of those, good luck, a better recording will blow you out. Or just the opposite, some are real bass heavy. This is not like trying to get midrange/treble right because those are there all the time every recording you can hear them just fine. Deep bass however, until you get a DBA its hard to believe just how much deep bass has been there all along, its just been in hiding.
So what I did, after zinging back and forth pretty dramatically in the beginning (because of all the above reasons) was just let it alone a while. Listen to a lot of different stuff at a range of volume levels. Then every once in a while make a judicious teeny tiny little tweak. Lather rinse repeat. Takes a while but got to where its been pretty amazing for quite a while now.
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I like the way you think!! I built this room with the idea of no acoustical treatments. Angled front walls , soffits gently sloping to a coffered ceiling , proper furniture , double 5/8 drywall with
green glue,etc. the swarm was going to be the room treatment. I am sure the amps and woofers need a few days to break in but I can already hear the improvement to an already great sounding system. |
Congrats on your Swarm setup benzman!
Glad to hear your listening room is done after all those delays! |
Going over this thread re reading it again @noble100 I run all 4 of my subs in mono because there’s no such thing as stereo imaging with deep bass below 80 Hz. Plus there’s virtually no recorded music with discrete bass channels below 100 Hz, anyways Hi Tim, thanks for clarifying on that, I was wrong, I thought the actual content my differ when I wrote that post but now that I’m getting into analog in a more serious way and understanding more about how recording are made, microphone placement, imaging creation etc I realize there is nothing wrong with mono (as I was taught to think). |
A couple of recordings with good low bass
Jump into the Fire - Harry Nillson
Pickles and Schizoozy (two songs) from
Appalachia Waltz featuring Edgar Meyer's acoustic bass
A shout out to Tim for posting and reposting to spread awareness of this approach.Especially for those of us with less than ideal rooms it's a remarkable thing.
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Hello benzman,
I'm actually an Audi man, but regardless, I wholeheartedly welcome you to the DBA club! Enjoy.
Hello jtcf,
Thanks for the shout out but I've always felt I had no choice but to spread the word on the DBA, to my fellow A/V enthusiasts and music lovers, ever since I first experienced how incredibly well it actually performs.
Tim
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the swarm was going to be the room treatment. +1 This is how to think about it. Vangelis- Conquest of Paradise soundtrack (LP)Global Communication 76 14 (LP)Massive Attack 100th Window (45rpm edition)King Crimson Islands (US Atlantic white cover edition LP)Emerson Lake and Palmer S/T (Pink Island edition LP)Gregory Alan Isakov with the Colorado Symphony (LP)World's Great Composers (Reader's Digest 12LP set- Rite of Spring) |
Hello, just about to join the DBA swarm club. I already have a two Vandersteeen 2wq subs (active) on my system. I just bought locally a pair of B&W CT SW10 passive subs which are 4 ohms each. A Dayton Sa1000 amp should be arriving in the next few days. I understand that the passive subs should be wired in series in order to not overload the amp. Any other recommendations in to completing this DBA into my system, My main speakers are Gradient Revolutions which have already a 80hz high pass between pre out to amp because of the way the Vandy subs work. I will be using the other pre output for the Dayton amp.
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["We got a guy here, every time this comes up he says EQ."] How gracious, thank you. Absolute Sound Fall 2020, a limited subwoofer list: 37 Brands
148 Models
72 With some type or association with signal processing. Diversity is a wonderful thing. |
