Technics or Thorens, need suggestions
Many years ago I owned an SP 10 and never thought much of it sound wise but to be fair, I was using an early 1980’s Sony receiver and an entry level Grado cartridge. SP-10 or SP-10 MK2 ? First is from the late 60’s, second is from the mid 70’s. The difference between those two Technics models is HUGE Technics chronicle available on their website, there was so many models release between the SP-10 and SP-10 mkII Technics SP-10 mkII today is better than any Rega turntable and better than ALL belt drive turntables under $2k. Refurbished SP-10 mkII will outperform almost everything on belt drive territory up to $4k. Rega is simply not on that level at all. SP-10 mkII in some nice wooden plinth with Micro Seiki copper mat and modern high-end tonearm like Reed 3p is absolutely killer turntable. Upgrade is possible, but only to another Direct Drive. here is my ex SP-10 mkII. Even much cheaper SP-20 with some nice tonearms like these is better than all those funny belt drives. Add SAEC SS-300 mat and nice disc stabilizer and you're done, an excellent vintage Direct Drive in original Technics Obsidian plinth SH-10B3. |
Many years ago I owned an SP 10 and never thought much of it sound wise but to be fair, I was using an early 1980's Sony receiver and an entry level Grado cartridge. Currently, I have a very good phono stage and I'm using a Thorens TD 160 MK1 that I've been modifying. I've built a hard maple plinth for it, have dampened the chassis and sub chases, upgraded to Wireworld phono cable, added a Herbies record mat, grungebuster washers and isolation feet, upgraded the headshell and leads and installed an Audio Technica 33 mono anniversary cartridge. Eventually, I will upgrade to a better tonearm, probably a Jelco. Yes, it's a FrankenThorens but I'm unsentimental about its stock build and each change I've done to it has rendered a sonic improvement aside from maybe the headshell. It will stay as a mono table. If I were to buy a new table, I'd opt for an upper level Rega. |
As soon as I saw the title, I knew mijo would be here shortly to bash the Technics. I was using a Marantz TT15-S, and while I liked the sound and the looks, I don't like the way the belt and motor is setup. I have been eyeing a newer Technics since the release and I pulled the trigger 2 days ago on a gently used 1210GR with an Ortofon black and a few upgrades at a nice price.The table really sounds fabulous. Definitely no regrets. I also agree that the table looks much better in person(not that it looks bad in pictures.) I have a good friend that is generally a fan of belt drives, I bought the Marantz on his recommendation and the first thing he said is, I don't like the looks. I certainly don't agree, and he probably won't either when he gets to see(and hear) it. Anyone need a like new Marantz TT15 for a good price? :P |
I have serious doubts about the credibility of anybody who dismisses or recommends a turntable (or any other piece of equipment for that matter) on the basis of genre. Also bear in mind that certain reviewers can also be prone to be guilty of this cardinal sin to a varying degree. They are easy to spot after a while. Keep an open mind and judge the value of a component on its merits alone. |
The SP 10 is 0.015%. If you think you can hear the difference then you need to take Michael Fremer's place on the staff of Stereophile.@mijostyn Certainly you don't hear that in terms of pitch. But as the machine speeds up and slows down, it causes the arm to exert variable tracking pressures on the left and right sides of the grooves due to variable skating forces. This creates a bit of a 'shimmer' in the sound stage. To hear what this is about, sometimes its useful to compare the LP to the same title on tape. There is a 'locked in' quality about the soundstage with better speed regulation- its more palpable. BTW I agree that the arm is one of the weaknesses of the Technics, but its a lot better arm than was on the old SL1200s (it has superior arm tube material, better bearings and the bearings have no slop in them at all); not bad when you consider the price. But I've installed the Triplanar arm on a number of the new SL1200s and the difference is pretty remarkable. Seriously if you've not heard one in person, its an entirely new machine from the ground up, having only appearance and the fact that its a turntable in common with the older SL1200s; I've not heard a belt drive that can keep up. |
Looks like technics G is much more preferred here than a similarly priced thorens TD1600/1601. What about a higher priced Luxman TT? I could probably swing another 1-2k for luxman if it’s better sounding. I can’t audition a luxman though. I think I’m gonna get the G based on overwhelming positive reviews from this forum. Still curious about the luxman comparison though. PD-151 for about 3,2k, brand new open box, and 5k for the higher version almost brand new. Should I still go with the G? |
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Your C2600 has one of the best phono sections out there at any price point. Don't worry about that. At your budget level, I suggest take a hard look at SOTA turntables. Their Sapphire is one of the best performers available. 100% made in USA, superior support and an unmatched value. Far superior to either Technics or Thorens from my perspective. It's your money so you have to make your own decisions. Have fun checking the alternatives over and let us know what you decide. Happy listening & have fun! |
glupson5,057 posts05-24-2020 8:25pmoldhvymec, "I’ve used BOTH for 50 years. Mcintosh and Thoren. Thoren has some very nice units."I read somewhere, a few years ago, about Thorens basically being a different company than 50 years ago. Not that any company is the same. Their not, but they, have alway used a belt drive or belt, idler drive. I have 121, 124s I and several 160s, and one Super 160. I get a notion every now and then, and build a plinth. I tinker for a month or two, then off to the next one. My personal goto TT is Russco, I call them Garrard Killers. THEY ARE. Sparta, QRK, Fairchild (really nice, 16" platters), and Russco. Washing machine motors, 24/7 for 30 years. 100.00 parts, 30 more years. They have a gear shift to change speeds, A GEAR SHIFTER.. Adjustable thrust plates on the motor, and platter..Very easy to get quiet and keep quiet.They are a broadcast TT, new parts are ava, also.. I usually keep 6-8 here, all radio station pulls. I keep one within a days que. I just pick a tone arm and mount it. Easy with wood, plastic or alu boards THAT is a TT gals/fellas. Thoren is a step up, if you really want to go crazy.. You can spend 20,000.00 pretty easy.. TD 550, 2001, 3001, 126, 226, 121 124, 224s (auto). the 131 134 135 are fixed tone arms, but good.. Quiet, easy, lots of options. Micro Seika, is a great DD TT, and a much better tone arm..Few tweaks.. I have a TT project here.. 47lb alu platter with 6 pucks the machining done.. Any TT builders? 5 were made, one left, it had a flaw in a puck. (shot holder) Regards.. |
I made my choice in the mid-late 80s that belt drive was more to my taste. I had a Technics SP-12 How can you compare a very old entry level $100 Technics SP-12 to the brand new high-end $4000 Technics SL1200G with coreless motor? There is nothing similar between those two models, except for the look of the platter. This is what i often read from a belt-drive aficionados here, you’re comparing apples to oranges |
I made my choice in the mid-late 80s that belt drive was more to my taste. I had a Technics SP-12 in their rubber plinth with Audio Technica's best arm and Signet TK-9Ea ML after having been used to an LP12 with KMAL arm, and I was very disappointed. I then got into SOTA Sapphires, for a time and finally hit the end of the line with a Well Tempered Turntable and Arm. On your budget, look at the Amadeus, GTA, or if a wood-look plinth is a must, the Versalex. That said, the Thorens looks like a solid option in a less revolutionary, and undeniably handsome 'table. The resale value of the Technics is doubtless true, and I imagine the Thorens will be much the same...but what better value is there than buying the last table you'll likely ever want...the first time? |
Get the Technics. At that quoted price it's a steal. Even at the suggested retail price it's still a better 'table than the Thorens. I presently own a Thorens TD-160, a VPI Traveler, a Garrard 301, and have owned a Technics SL-1200 for about twenty five years. If Technics had released these new 1200's earlier I might not have gone for the refurbed 301 that I bought but that's water under the bridge and I like the 301 so much that I can't contemplate replacing it. However, I'm strongly considering selling both the TD-160 and the VPI and replacing them with one of the new Technics SL-1500's. Again, go for the SL-1200G. You'll be very glad that you did! |
The only thing you can say about the Technics is that they are well made and slick looking and pretty cheap which is why people fall for them. $4000 is cheap for you ? SL1200G cost $4k and it’s very expensive turntable, still not overpriced like almost everything in high-end world today, especially thos belt drive you’re using. Technics tonearms always were super high quality like EPA-100 series with ruby-ball bearings, VdH has been using them as his reference. The EPA-100 mk2 is the rarest and this arm alone cost over $3k. You Technics experience base on $1200 SP-10 mkII drive and nothing else, i assume you know nothing about Technics. First make sure your used gear is in mint condition and works like new before you will post comments based on your memories from errr 70s/80s/90s ??? I have tried many different models of Technics turntables, tonearms and cartridges in the last 5-7 years. I have some of them right here along with many top quality turntables, right now. I want to remind to anyone that NEUMANN cutting lathe comes with Technics Direct Drive motor SP-02. This is the motor under the platter when cutter stylus cut the lacquer disc for each record in vinyl manufacturing process. Look at the catalog posted by jpjones If anyone made the best Direct Drive motor then Technics direct drive is one of the best ever. |
Back in the 70’s, when I was selling audio retail, I bought a Thorens TD125AB MKII turntable on a salesman accommodation at 50% off retail. I used it with a Shure V15 Type2 MM cartridge. I liked the table but hated the cuing with the Thorens tonearm. I ditched it and bought a Phillips GA212 Turntable. Come to think of it, I didn’t have the Phillips very long. Eventually, I bought a JVC Direct Drive turntable (I remember I paid $850.00 for it) in 1978. I loved that turntable. The Technics SL1200G is the best turntable I have ever owned, and just coming from a VPI Prime which cost me the same money, it is a night and day difference to me. The PRAT is much better, it is the first turntable that sounds better than my Esoteric SACD player and believe me, that is saying a lot. The cuing is so precise, you don’t hear any kind of needle chatter, the bass has true authority, and the music flows so easily. I expect that it is my final turntable. The best part is once you have the cartridge dialed in, you do not have to futz with turntable, you can just spin vinyl. |
oldhvymec, "I’ve used BOTH for 50 years. Mcintosh and Thoren. Thoren has some very nice units."I read somewhere, a few years ago, about Thorens basically being a different company than 50 years ago. Not that any company is the same. In any case, and you surely know better than me if that is the case, old Thorenses and new Thorenses may not be same kinds of animals. I have no experience with new ones, but old ones were something to admire. That TD 126 Mk III, used, would be a serious contender if I had posted the question from the original post. Now, could new ones hold a candle to those old ones? If you have any experience, could you elaborate? I am interested. |
I’ve used BOTH for 50 years. Mcintosh and Thoren. Thoren has some very nice units. If you want to spend money, Thoren can relieve you of some.. Lots of goodies for most Thorens. The vintage stuff is just wonderful, and hold it’s value. Technics is a good unit. Just not a Thoren, as simple as they are..very easy to work on and PLINTH ready. Mac has great phono sections, in all their units. You can tweak from there. They are known for their dual phono, MM, MC, adjustable gain (the newer). With an Amprex or Tellie valve swap, anything but the original, valves, you’ll be sittin’ in tall cotton.. I have 50 years of Mac Preamps, C8,11,20,22,2500, MX110,120,121. Valve or SS, all have good phono sections. Time to go feed the chickens. Regards |
I have the 1200G. It is amazing. The aesthetics are just a little too familiar to all of us but, as an industrial designer, I do have to say that it is a classic style and will always be. For what it's worth I was looking to get a better looking TT...but since buying it, I have pretty much upgraded all my components and need to admit that it still looks better than anything on the rack. You appreciate all the love that went into the 1200G everyday you use it. The arm and gimbal are stellar...it's a medium mass arm that will work with so many carts. almost 2 years on mine without a hickup. You won't be sorry with a 1200G. Too bad you can't listen to the Thorens and the Technics side by side. I'll bet the Technics will put it to shame. |
If you are looking for a wood TT that is belt drive, look at the Acoustic Solid, Solid Wood turntable.
Wood
or the Wood Referenz,
Wood Referenz
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You can always add weight to the magic wand. Thorens tonearm bearings are excellent. Low compliance cartridges dominate the Japanese market so they put boat anchors on all their tables. They also have a thing for S shaped arms. It must be because they can't pronounce their R's. The only thing you can say about the Technics is that they are well made and slick looking and pretty cheap which is why people fall for them. Americans love cheap well made garbage. Well, maybe not so well made in most cases. Buy American. SOTA is working on a tonearm by the way. They are running out of OEM manufacturers. |
Technics tonearm on SL1200G is really good one, vta on the fly, removable headshell, optional subweights. If you really need a $4k tonearm you can remove Technics stock tonearm, order custom armboard and buy Reed 3P tonearm or something else. The drive on SL1200G is one of the best you can get! In my opinion all those KAB mods was made for older $500 technics turntables, you don’t have to deal with is if you have top of the line SL1200G. |
To the OP, I am running the Technics SL1200G with a a Mac C2500 and MC302 amp. The Technics is the best turntable to grace my system. Previously, I had a VPI Prime, VPI Scout, VPI HW III and a Rega Planer 3. The Technics is the best of the bunch and if you just want to listen to records, it is a set and forget turntable. |
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I’ve heard and seen the Technics 1200G and yes it looks and feels much better in real life. I haven’t heard anything else and likely won’t be able to. I’m in a position to get a new G for 2,5k, it’s an open box about 1 month old. This is amazing price for "G", go for it before it’s too late. It’s $4k new. $2500 is superb deal for SL1200G ! Don’t sleep. You could even sell it for higher price. Alternatively, I can get a Luxman PD-171A for around 5k, or PD-151 for 3,2k both almost brand new. How does Luxman G compare to the Technic models ? My Luxman PD-444 is Direct Drive from the 70’s, i have no idea about new LUX, never tried. To be candid, I am not crazy about the looks of Luxman either. I’d Love to have a wood frame but will not sacrifice quality. You can have a wooden frame on your G if you wish too, but it’s a custom made, see what people can do with older cheap technics, the frame is very easy to made. |
I heard the Thorens TD1600 at a show September last year (please let there be one this year!), and it sounded excellent through some all beryllium driver vintage Yamaha NS1000s. I remember posting on here some of my impressions (low noise and huge dynamics) from that show. The Thorens TD1600 also looked classically beautiful, re-appropriating and I daresay even improving their own original design over that one later infamously 'borrowed' by Linn for their LP12. Possibly still most iconic look in audio. In earlier times the Thorens would have been a no-brainer. It simply trounces the stylish Technics if seen as furniture. Some information on the 1600/1601 here from tnt audio's scribe, the one and only Mark Wheeler. https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/thorens_td1600_1601_e.html Having said all of that it's very very difficult to go against the technical phenomena that is the Technics 1200G. I think this is a classic heart versus head decision. Since I'm somewhat less sentimental than I used to be, I'd get the Technics. |
Noromance, I have nothing against Technics. I think they make a great cartridge for the money. I dislike all direct drive turntables because every last one I have ever heard on a system I deemed to be excellent sounded less than stellar and that includes older SP 10s. (Have not heard the newest version so I can't comment on it.) There are so many excellent belt drives out there with wow and flutter specs down around 0.03%. The SP 10 is 0.015%. If you think you can hear the difference then you need to take Michael Fremer's place on the staff of Stereophile. |
Hi, i fancy tts with suspension i prefer them over mass alone. 1200G is an improved design to its predecessor with much less motor cogging and a better constructed arm but still inferior to the one that Thorens supply. Both are excellent tts, more solidity and speed with Technics more balance and air with Thorens. TD6001 is even fancier with the electronic arm lifter. You have to listen at both yourself, don't buy something only from suggestions or interviews. |
@ei001h, I think either table would work fine for you but think you are worried about the wrong component. Think you would be better off finding an outboard phono stage to use with either table. Nothing against the MAC, well made stuff, but many of the newer stand alone phono stages handily outperform built in units in preamps. |
I've heard and seen the Technics 1200G and yes it looks and feels much better in real life. I haven't heard anything else and likely won't be able to. I'm in a position to get a new G for 2,5k, it's an open box about 1 month old. Alternatively, I can get a Luxman PD-171A for around 5k, or PD-151 for 3,2k both almost brand new. How does Luxman G compare to the Technic models ? To be candid, I am not crazy about the looks of Luxman either. I'd Love to have a wood frame but will not sacrifice quality. |
Mijo has a thing against Technics DDs. The reality is that the 1200G will sound better and hold it's value. However at your price point, you should listen to what you're going to buy. As for arm compliance, at this level, you're probably looking to use a low compliance moving coil anyway. This is where we need more info. Is the aesthetic more important to you than sound quality? What cartridge? What other tables? Is it down to these two? Is the C2600 up to the job of a higher end front end? If you do want to swap arms, maybe a different table is needed? |
Absolutely the Thorens if you don't like listening to oscillating eddy currents and other direct drive artifacts. The Thorens will also have a much more flexible tone arm on it. The one on the Technics is a boat anchor. If you plan on using a high compliance moving magnet cartridge like the Ortofon 2M back you have no choice. It is much easier to add mass than it is to take it away. |
This is what inside that Thorens. Yet another overpriced belt drive. Buy yourself a Technics "G" and forget about any other turntables. If you're comparing them by the pictures in the internet then you have to see and touch that SL1200G in real life. if wooded frame is what you like on Thorens then you have to look for Technics SP10R and some nice custom made wooden plinth. But it will be out of your budget. An alternative for lower budget (but not lower quality) is another vintage Direct Drive turntables (made in Japan), maybe Technics SP10 mkII. My favorite is Luxman PD-444 and i prefer it over Technics. You can definitely find it under $4K with tonearms, spare armboards and including shipping. I have two of them and this is my reference! |
