Tekton Double Impacts

LP,

I read through today's posts and haven't had the time to answer any of your questions till now,but Al and Charles gave you the facts and their opinions that are spot on.

Some of the guys build the "Truth" preamp with 6 to 10 db's of gain and with or without a buffer transformer are you sure that yours has no gain.Your explanation of how your volume knob operates I do find kinda strange or different.

But I can say that overall you will have good sound and should have plenty of volume to enjoy the music that you like.

Kenny.

Corelli,

Yes I remember what I used.
You will have to read all 31 pages to find your answer.

Lol,just kidding let me send you a PM.

Kenny.

Charles,

Thank You very much for your kindness my friend,you also have a wealth of knowledge and you are a true Gentleman without question,that maintains a open mindness and is always willing to help someone when needed.

Kenny.

articdeth,

That's a unusual name could you elaborate.

Here is a more detailed description of the DI's that may help you understand the design a little better.

Even though these are tweeter transducers the six of them that form the circle, based on what frequencies they handle, radiate acoustically as if they were one six inch mid-range driver.  The transducer in the middle is being used as a tweeter and handles the high end frequencies up to 30Khz.  So, acoustically you have a six inch mid-range driver with a coaxial mounted tweeter which means it functions as a single point source.  Now, by Eric figuring out how to make this work you get all the advantages of a coaxial driver, however the mid-range array weighs close to nothing leading to blazing speed/dynamics/micro-details compared to a regular six inch driver, regardless of what materials it is made out of it cannot be as light in weight.  Yet, you still get not only remarkable transit response, but great control because each driver is small and well behaved.  The closet you could come to this regarding weight/control would be a ribbon or AMT which cannot be used as a coaxial design as a single point source.  Brilliant on his part!

The more I listen to the DI's regarding mid-range and high frequencies they easily rival any panel design/ribbon/AMT I have had in my system and surpass them in low end extension/dynamics and overall macro-dynamics.


Kenny.

Hi Kdude,

I just did some checking on the Truth. Arthur Salvatore has a long write up on it in his recommended components.

I have to admit I am confused by your comment that " some of the guys build the Truth pre amp with 6 to 10 db of gain." Are you referencing the Hornshoppe Truth?

As far as the volume knob, I am under the impression that all Hornshoppe Truths real listening levels is between 1 and 2 o'clock, which is maximum rotation. Perhaps another owner can chime in on that point.

Just now I noticed on A. Salvatore that he stated the Truth actually losses .5db. I sure didn't know that.

He also talks about it use of light as an attenuator.

Also something unique about the solid state that's used for the buffer is mentioned, but I did not focus on that part of the write up at all.

My educated guess now is that for my needs I believe the combo Truth, Triode Labs, and Electrons will probably satisfy my needs. But it comes at risk for me. No audition, no returns, and not a lot of margin for error. I need to figure a more comfortable way to proceed, especially since I do not sell on line as of yet, and no guarantees that I ever will.

If I understood Almarg thinking on this matter, he would opt for more power to guarantee a full performance under all musical circumstances.

    LP

Hi LP,
Keep in mind that Al’s litmus test is minimally compressed large scale symphonic music capable of peaks of   105 db at his sitting position 10 feet away. He knows the sensitivity of his speakers and then calculates the power needed to achieve this without strain or clipping.

My listening requirements are less demanding than Al’s and I can get by very happily with less power than would satisfy him. We’re both quite content with our respective audio systems. The key to success is truly determining what you ultimate objective is. Power requirements   (and Listening volume levels) obviously vary amongst different individuals.
Charles

LP,
Yes I'm referring to the horn shoppe "Truth" preamp,
It looks like from what I read on their forums that some guys are modifying their Truth preamps and adding Active gain and or transformer based Impedance buffers,possibly like a autoformer.

I read through all these posts again and analyzed all the specs again and I still come to the conclusion that this pairing in gear might work ok for you in a smaller room and being close to your speakers.

Now if you listen to symphonic classical and like it loud then I also would agree with Al and say that this pairing in gear wouldn't work without more amplifier pwr,probably at least 25 watts or more.

Even though I really like the 1 watt from the MZ2S with my DI's playing easier music,more pwr is needed to play more complex and dynamic music.

I hope this helps you,
Kenny.

@kdude66 

Kenny, thanks for the detailed post on the driver array and how it works. From an earlier post of yours:

"So, acoustically you have a six inch mid-range driver with a coaxial mounted tweeter which means it functions as a single point source."

I understand the single point source concept, however I don't see how that would work when doubled up as it is with the Ulfberths. Can you explain?

Thanks.

My post beat Kenny's by 1 minute 😊 but we've made the same essential point to LP. 90% of my music listening is acoustic jazz with groups of varying numbers of musicians.  The vast majority of these type of recordings are well executed and have very little  (sometimes none) compression.  Dynamic swings usually is 25 to 30 db and some are even 40 db.  That's very good but large scale complex symphonic can certainly be more demanding. 

I do quite well with an 8 watt SET amplifier driving 94 dB the sensitivity speakers with a 14 ohm load  (not a trivial factor).
Charles 

@lpretiring  There was so much back and forth today, that I overlooked saying: Congratulations on ordering the Electrons.

If you are having second thoughts about how they might work for you vs the Double Impacts, perhaps Eric can swap out your order?

I cannot see how you can go wrong with the Triode 2A3 amp. Triode is well regarded, not only in this thread, but to reaches far far beyond. 

And you may be surprised at how well your current preamp functions in the chain.

Many of us have been moving new equipment in to optimize our listening experiences and preferences since purchasing the Double Impacts. If a component isn't a good fit, it is far from the end of the world. In fact, I'd say that the beautiful part of the journey is just beginning for you!

I'd wait until you've had some time with the Electrons and then make a much more informed choice.

Charles, Kdude,David_ten

First and foremost, thank you all for your kind words and your sincere efforts in helping me to figure out which direction is the most logical step forward for me.

My musical taste does not include large orchestra. The closest I come to that I think is Loreena McKennitt, who I adore. In case you are not familiar with her group, it contains piano, harp, electric violin, cello, standard percussion, something like bongos, and a few middle eastern instruments that I have no clue what they are but they look while performing like something an organ grinder does. Along with that Peter Gabriel Genesis, Pink Floyd, Dire Straits, some Led Zeppelin, but I would venture a guess, not real loud.

How do you guys know what kind of decibel peaks and volumes are being achieved? Do you use some volume meter that I never bumped into. Right now I wouldn't know an 80db from an 87db if it hit me in the head. But seriously, you get the idea of what style I listen to.

Kdude, You hit the nail on the head, "that this pairing might work o.k. for you." At this point I don't feel I can buy the amp without some kind of fail safe in place. 

Charles, I would feel a heck of a lot better with 8 watts as your excellent system offers too. In fact that would be a no brainer for me at this junction.

David, Thanks for the kind thoughts, but to be completely candid, I haven't been excited as of yet at all with so much going on right now, plus the uncertainty of my amp issue.

It's funny because it's been over 2 days since I ordered them, and I received nothing. No receipt, no work order, no acknowledgement, nada. However, I know how busy Tekton is so that's really a none issue. I just find it amusing.

        LP

Dear all,

Every time I say to myself, "enough already."  I'm happy with my sound. I find it impossible to understand the fine points of amplifier design.. I'm ready to retire from the dialogue. Some of you post observations that encourage me to jump back in again.  Our fascination with 'absolute sound'  (pace H.P.) is so subjective that any observation has to begin with a bit of personal information so that all of you can take my observations with a touch of cynicsm: So here goes: 

 I believe I own the eleventh and twelvth productons of the Brilliance speakers.   I believe (from sources at the highest level ..as we say)  that my speakers enjoy some ot the higher end components of the PMD design, though that option didn't exist when I placed my order. 

My source materials  for critical listening are mostly lp's and sacd's, of symphonies, chamber music, and solo performances of piano, violin, trumpet, pipe organ, and the like.  I also love the human voice. In this area I'll listen to a rotten recording of a wonderful voice over a perfectly recorded mediocraty.

Because I have access to the audiogolgy department of the University of Utah I recently discovered that, despite my 77 years, I still hear 15,000 hz clearly, but I have a to slightly below normal at about 5,000 hz. 

My cartridge is a moving magnet high level  Sound-Smith. My amplifier (First Watt) puts out a clean 10 watts per channel of class A power. My pre-amp is an acive  buffer stage  coupled to a passive volume control regulated by Vishay resistors (Placette), whatever that means.

My listening room is 25 feet in length and 15 feet in width with a cathedral ceiling and a small circular rug in the center of this area. The room is relatively lively but not overly so.

With that as background, I'm happy to say that my system puts out extremely clear sound which is louder than I can bear in the loudest,  most compex of passages.  (The Great Gate of Kiev, the 1812 overture, Bach's Toccata and Fugue in d, and the like).

I put all this information out, not necessarily to brag), but to plead the case of low wattage and very clear, class A  solid state amplification.  (I used to have a relatively primative unmodified Dynakit and found that the sound did not sound natural). 

But SO MUCH OF OUR QUEST FOR ABSOLUTE SOUND DEPENDS ON THE QUALITY OF THE SOURCE MATERIAL. Nothing is worse than a badly recorded lp and nothing better than the highest qualty record. Regular cd's range from mediocre to pretty good, but there's a certain point below which they do not sink.   I like them when I'm lazy or when the performance warrants .

As you discuss the relative merits of amplifiers, I'd appreciate hearing, as some have done, of  the context in which YOU listen.   Perhaps, down the line, a gathering of Tekton Design fans  here in Utah might be nice We could combine it with a live concert by our ample resorces for live music here in Happy Valley.

Mazikrav (a.k.a. Fred) 

Quick spelling corrections: 'mediocrity', audiology,' and 'source

Sorry, Audiogoners. Forgive a 77 year old fumblefingers.  BTW, I'd be interested in knowing if there are many other senior citizens on this mad chain?

Fred,

I've been in this hobby for about 35 yrs and I have mostly listened to analog and playing digital as a convenience since 1982 when digital first started but over the last 6yrs or so I've been more focused with digital playback.Since we all know that digital can be hit or miss in quality and some of your favorite music maybe some of the worst recordings,I've been focused on preamp and amp pairings that give me the sonic qualities I desire along with helping those bad recordings sound much better and then my best recordings also sound even better than I have ever heard them.

I really like the pairing of my MZ2 preamp with the Zotl40 or my Diy first watt Sit2,They both produce 40watts into 4 ohms,It's like having 2 different flavors.

I listen mainly to Acoustic and vocal jazz,classic rock,classical piano and the occasional symphony orchestra,mainly as a system test.

And Offcourse finding a dac that you like is going to help the overall sound as well.

I think I have found the "Holy Grail" in components for me that have great synergy and I will be happy with them for quite awhile.

Kenny.

Thanks, Kenny. 

Let's see how our budget works in the future and if Reno Hi-Fi will give a sufficient break on my F-3 to experiment.  Until then, I too am happy. I'm wondering where you live?

Kenny wrote "I think I have found the Holy Grail "
Well the key point is you know what you want. This is important as there are listeners who aren’t sure of what they ultimately want. Kenny I’d say that the chances of long term success and happiness with your current audio system are exceedingly high.

You trust your ears and this is a crucial point as this allows you to choose components and speakers based on the most important criteria, how do they sound reproducing music in my home? If you can genuinely say that this is the best I’ve achieved up to now then you’re in an  enviable position and that’s ideal.

There are a lot of very good choices of audio equipment available and we can’t own(or hear) them all. Once you’ve found that exceptional system synergy that yields what "you" determine is superb sound quality, stop right there and enjoy and appreciate what you have.
Charles

Hey guys. I know that I am really late posting here but I really wanted to say thanks. I had been looking at the Double Impacts for over a year and finally ordered them. I now have had them just over a month and have to say that they are amazing. I have only heard one set of speakers sound better but the whole setup cost 70,000. My chain was right now is a Denon usb 300 DAC, Shciit audio Magni uber pre, and Emotiva A-300. Im saving for the schiit audio Freya as my next pre. The sound that get out of these things is Huge. I dont know of any othe way to say it. I had Boston Acoustic VR 2 speakers for about 10 years before and have been shopping around for a long time for new ones. All I really knew was that I did not want a sub and I wanted to really jump up in performance. These fit the bill perfectly.

That's great sjwpwrpo (can I buy a vowel?)

Consider yourself just fashionably late to the party.  Glad the DI's are working out so well for you.  Once you get things settled in please share your  thoughts to help others like you who pondered and carefully gathered info before  jumping in.

DI posts---1515
Biking miles--1455

Congrats sjwpwrpro.........glad to hear you're also enjoying all that the DI's offer. Huge sound is definitely something the DI's can portray, the fact that they are so detailed and sound great at low volumes really amazed me.

I'm really interested as to how the DI SE's compare to the DI's. Someone here ( my memory fails me yet again as to whom) with the DI's ordered the SE's and I look forward to their impressions. 

Corelli.....I'm tired just thinking about all those miles!

This thread...Wow. Just, wow. Talk about legs.

Any of you guys in Texas? I’ll bring a six pack, or a bottle of good Scotch. Some high quality H2O, whatever. I’d love to hear these.
(I owned Lores when they were first released and thought they were a great value, but these seem to be on a whole ’nother level!)

DI Posts: 1
Biking Miles: 696 (lots of business travel this year, 3,444 in 2016)

@corelli  You may have to start reporting on calories burned per ride, since your mileage is being eclipsed. Kms will work for the short term. :)

Hi Sebrof,
This is a beautiful thread 😊😊
Charles 

@lpretiring  Loreena McKennitt is wonderful! I heard her for the first time in a coffee shop in Fredericton (that's New Brunswick Canada).

You will get your Electrons. Eric always delivers. :)

Hi David_ten
I hope your right about my Electrons. 

Eric was in his kitchen when he took my order over the phone. I envision my credit card number being jotted on a napkin and subsequently wiping up a spill, or removing that barbecue sauce from the corner of the mouth.

But it's only 3 days now.

Loreena McKennitt, a voice like no other. An extremely talented ensemble. Superbly engineered recordings, along with music that reaches the deepest level of my soul.

   LP

@mazikrav  Fred, Thanks for sharing more about your listening preferences, your Brilliance speakers, and thoughts on the topics on hand.

A get together in the Salt Lake City area sounds fantastic.

Our very own "Tektonic Burning Man" if you will. :)

@sjwpwrpro  Welcome and great that you are posting in the thread and that you are very happy with the Double Impacts. Looking forward to hearing more about your system and how the DIs keep working for you as you bring in the Freya etc.

@sebrof  Welcome and hope you are able to audition the DIs. Where in Texas are you located?

@vitop Any updates on your end? Do you have your 'Mini Ulfs?'

@kdude66   Kenny, looking forward to your test results from today's MZ2S exam!

Sebrof:

Are you near Houston? I can recommend a dealer that has them (it's where I heard them)

Hi David:

No, not much of anything. I spoke to Eric last week and they were being painted. I am going to call him at the end of next week to see if they are together and he has heard and compared them to the full size Ulfs yet.

I have a specific sound target in my mind that I would like them to meet or exceed based on another speaker. I can't wait to get them and be able to see what they are like. The only thing I have to go on was on this thread where a pair of Ulfs replaced a set of DIs and they were better in the areas I am looking for, so I think I will be happy when I get them.

Go ahead and pull evolvist.  Can't imagine you would be sorry.  If you read this thread we all struggled with the parting of $3000 to purchase an unheard speaker.  Then, after installing a speaker not even broken in we all had big smiles on our faces.  And then marveled at what a sonic bargain this was.
Consistent feedback, in very different rooms, and very different equipment, should reassure you it would be hard to go wrong.

lpretiring:
I will anxiously await your receiving and listening to the Electrons. I have been procrastinating over which Tekton to eventually order for my winter place in Florida. I won't be there until December, so I haven't attempted to communicate with Eric as of yet. I also have a small room there....11x11. I'm concerned the DIs size will be a problem as well as dealing with its' abundant weight. The Electrons seem to be a safer bet. I'm still not sure what the sonic differences are. I presently have Zu Superflys in the Florida space with a small subwoofer. I'm using a Dennis Had Inspire amp which will drive the Tektons as well. I assume I wouldn't need a sub with either Tekton....I don't listen at loud volumes. My "taste" can probably be best described as a Koetsu lover....going back to the earliest incarnations.

@vitop:

About the Ulf jr's: How tall are they? I would assume they also have the 15 tweeter arrays with 4 low mid drivers.  What's the size and configuration of the bass drivers? Thanks
Bill M

@Corelli
...Yeah, my only reservation is whether to spring for the Electons or the Mini-Ulfs. My room is 13x12x8, so the larger models might not be optimal.

It’s just only that when @vitop mentioned Houston, and some available to audition my ears perked up. It’s always at least a fun excursion going to audition speakers. :-)

Hi Lula,
Yes, a lot of strong similarities to our quests.

Eric mentioned to me that aside from the frequency benefit on the extremes of the D.I.'s that the 2 models are about the same. I'm fine with a true 30 hz low end and in my case being 65 years old I'm told that old folk lose some high frequency extension as we progress. So if your o.k. with a 30hz low end, when you ripen up some more you will have nothing to worry about if you choose the Electrons is my early opinion.

I also struggled with the issue of size and weight. I think many do. It is a tough decision.

The one thing that really bugged me was the loss of sensitivity between them which is impacting my amplifier options. 

My room is 11X15X8 and I as well perceive that I listen at a senior level.

I will absolutely post my impressions, however my instincts are suggesting to me that it may be awhile before the delivery guy rings the bell.

   LP

@sebrof I am in Houston. If you're in Texas you could still be 900 miles away! LOL
I didn't search back as to what flavor of Tekton you wanted to sample in Texas, but I have DIs with the upgrade package currently. I should have DI Special Editions in a couple of weeks.
If you come, bring Scotch and your bike. Just got back from a 25 mile ride myself. It's a bit warm in south Texas today!
Lastly, I am an underachiever in the signal path vs the average on this thread. No SET amp. No multi-thousand dollar DAC or TT. But I think you can get a good idea of the speaker's capabilities from my rig. Just drop me a PM if you are actually close and are interested in coming by.

Hello All,

The results are in,
I took my MZ2S over to a local friend who specializes in vintage gear and he has the proper test equipment.
He did a pwr output test into a "calibrated4 ohm dummy load" and we got 1.38 watts at 1% Thd,and that was with the volume control on the MZ2S at the 4 o'clock position.With the volume control all the way up we saw a soft clipping condition on the wave form on a very nice Oscilloscope that he has recently got.This test for pwr output was done at the Industry standard frequency of 1K.

I also got to pwr 2 different sets of vintage speakers that he has in his listening room,Jbl L-220 and Kplisch Cornwalls.
It was kinda cool and good but not great sound overall,I'm not saleing my DI's anytime soon.😁

Kenny.

What thread size and pitch are the threads for the speaker feet? I plan on buy some Herbie Gliders here soon.

I tried to search through this thread and could not find the specifics. I am sure they are there...I must have missed them.

Thanks!

@porscheracer : I'm using Herbie's Giant Threaded Stud Gliders.

1/4" - 20

I'm using the 1 inch length, but others have used 1.5 inches.

@kdude66  

Thanks, Kenny. I had a feeling it was in excess of a Watt at 4ohms. At the 1W level, a 38% increase is significant. : )

Not only did you ace the test, you went all in for extra credit. : )

Hey @Bullitt5094 I'm in Houston. Jersey Village, in fact. It's the DI I'm looking to hear, but I have no idea how to PM on here. Haha. 

I'm an HAS member, but I don't go to too many meetings. Dullsville. Haha. 

Can you PM me? 

Evolvist:

I have not figured out how to PM on here either, although I have had others PM me. SO I guess I'll just post the information publicly and maybe someone else can get something out of it.

I heard them at Raven Audio. Dave is the owner. You can reach him at 936-662-5100.

Great guy and has some good stuff there. Let him know that I gave you his info. I won't do anything for me but I do want him to know that I appreciated the time he spent with us and that I am referring people to him when I can. I owe him that. He was waiting for equipment to come in and some venders were slowing him down. He was setting stuff up in a huge storm that knocked power out and he came in early again the next day to keep on setting up, so whatever I can do in terms of letting people know, I will.

Hopefully you will like them. If you ever figure out how to PM, give me a PM.

Lmswjm:

I actually do not know the answer to those questions. I basically bought them after I had heard the DIs and Eric promised me these would sound even better. I do know they have the 15 tweeter/midrange arrangement because that was how I ended up going in that direction.

I was primarily interested in HT and was going to go in the direction of the Paradigm Persona speakers which had been the clearest speakers I had heard. I was going for accuracy and clarity as my primary goals. The last speaker I wanted to hear was the Legacy Audio line of speakers since like Tekton, the had a reputation of having much better sound than their price indicated. Basically a giant slayer. To add to that, they used a high quality ribbons and I own a set of Apogee speakers and a set of Final sound electrostats. I think ribbons and electrostats if done right have some of the best sound going. I found a dealer that carried both Legacy and had a set of DIs on the floor so I went to hear them. I did some critical listening between Erics tweeter array and the ribbon tweeter, fully expecting the ribbons to be better.

After listening to the DIs I was going to buy them but since so much of the HT dialogue comes from the center speaker, I asked Eric if he could make me a center that looked like a smaller Ulf turned on it's side. I was after the 15 speaker tweeter/mid arrangement for my center.

That was when Eric mentioned the Ulf mini which were more wallet and room friendly and would match the custom center better. That's what I ended up getting. It will have more bass drivers, but be smaller drivers. It will have the 15 speaker tweeter/ mid arrangement and beyond that I don't know much. I am just trusting Eric here.

Here's how to PM, one way at least:

Click on the member's name.

Click on Details.

Click on Market Place Feedback.

Click on Send Message.

You can also do this through the Member Lookup Link when you are in the Main Audiogon Site via the drop down menu > Explore > Member Lookup.

@Evolvist, just sent you a message with my email address. This forum software is not user friendly. I'm just up 290 from you off Fry Rd. near Blackhorse Ranch.

Hey, thanks guys! 

I had no idea that Raven Audio was an hour and 20 minutes away from my home. I had read nothing but good things about their tube amps. 

I'll give him a shot and @david_ten I'll try your PM suggestion. Thanks! 

Thanks, @david_ten 

Hi Kenny,
Thanks for the effort and time in testing your M2Z preamplifier and I'm sure that others here appreciate it as well. 
Charles