Tekton Double Impacts

David:

No, I am going with black for the sides. I am going white for the Atmos ceiling speakers. Those 4 will be the only white ones.

@evolvist:

"Remember, my Linn has Space Optimization, which is a unique room correction that doesn’t use a mic. So, you measure the speakers by distance from various locations in the room, tell it what the floor is made of, the walls, windows, etc, etc, and it takes the room out of the equation, as opposed to getting readings from a much more fallible mic setup."

Please expand on this sentiment. Why would a mic set-up be more fallible? I would be interested in reviewing any reliable source of information that would support this. 

Because you're relying on the quality of the mic, plus the ability to capture the readings in what is often, but not always, a USB interface at worst, or a small pro-audio ADC at best. Because of the above factors, not failing to mention the variable quality of the software in use, I've seen readings taken in the exact same spot of the room have differing curves from one reading to the next. 

Therefore, as audio is a game of inches, where most of us try to squeeze the last bit of sound out of our gear, within our means, this variance can be too much when dealing with small frequencies and time. 

I believe it took a radically different approach to room correction in order to allow the adjustments in the environmental domain as opposed to the theoretical, captured by like software, yet with too many variables to be as precise. 

That very same statement surprised me also. There are many variables involved such as reflections off of materials and shapes that simple dimensions cannot possibly take into consideration. Just speaking for myself, I would rather measure how the sound arrives at a certain location via mic rather than just note the dimensions and assume that the sound will reach that measured location perfectly.

Again, just speaking for myself, I would have to do some really critical testing before I would believe a distance based correction system is more accurate than a mic based correction system. Not saying it is not the case, but it is something that I personally would have to be convinced of.

@vitop,
Well said and I was thinking the very same thing. This is a big subject however and I am not an expert. 

Off topic, I know, but it's all in the ear of the beholder. It also takes into account furnishings, surface hardness of walls, windows, ceilings, floors, and in a lot of cases Linn has measurements of the speakers in use. Not the DIs, of course. 

Sure, this methodology has caused some controversy, but it must be heard to be believed, first, much like the DIs. 

@evolvist 

I, for one, don't think this is off topic at all. I'd say it is very relevant.

This thread has been about improving sound quality, as expressed through the Double Impacts, which all of us are working on in different ways. From our many posts and discussions that process is still evolving with excellent results across the board.

I'm quite interested in your findings and from those that have used other room correction approaches/software. 

@vitop :  That's going to be some sound system once you have it installed. 

Hope there is an open invite for an in person listen once all is optimized!

Evolvist and I are planning to audition my DIs and likely my DI SEs at his place sometime in the near future. (Hopefully that won't cost me $100K in upgrades.) I'm very interested in the alternative measurement based room correction also. Honestly, I've never been happy with Audyssey for full corrections in my HT environment. For Bass correction REW helps. But just manually inputting the speaker distances, setting levels by ear and adding Bass correction seems to work the best for me. Even with the Bass I always end up tweaking it manually.

David:

It always takes me forever to get stuff done, but yes, I'll make it available for a listen once set up. I want to get to 4K so I can get the benefit of the Atmos sound system. Not sure I can afford it after all of this!

Evolist, agree that you must hear and experience it to know! I know the Lyngdorf room correction helped me obtain sound improvement that was beyond my past switching and upgrading of all manner of gear.

True that. 

Well put. I'm also interested in the Lyngdorf solution. It seems to deal with many of the valid shortcomings that evolvist listed. To be honest, I wouldn't even consider tackling room correction that wasn't already proven and simple.  

Do folk here know of anywhere in the Los Angeles area the DI can be auditioned? I currently own Tekton's Lore speakers. Thanks!

@grannyring :

Assuming that you tried feeding a separate power amp(s) from your Lyngdorf front end, I'm guessing that there wasn't real improvement to be had over what the TDAI-2170 already has built in? Thanks 

Bill M

Great question and yes I have used the analog outs to try several SS and tube amps. Here are the amps I tried.

- highly modified Cary Rocket 88 R
- Von Gaylord Triode Legend tube monos
- highly modified Dynaco mk4 monos wired for both standard and triode modes
- Job 225 SS amp

I also used a digital rca cable and output to try Lyngdorf’s own 2400 amp. I wanted to see what more power would bring. Sure the room correction feature was still in use with all these amps, nice feature, but I kept going back to the 2170 on its own.

In the end I preferred the 2170 on its own. It just sounded more right. Most impressive unit really. I found it responds well to a nice upgraded power cord. Contrary to their literature, I found it also liked a decent power conditioner in front of it. I also use a dedicated 20 amp line with upgraded Porter Port cryo outlet.

I am always thrilled when I compare the sound of my system with the Room Perfect turned off and then back on. Such a great improvement with it on. I was never able to get this level of improvement with my vast array of properly placed diffusion and absorption panels in the past.

I am still open to trying other tube amps to mate with the 2170 as I may find one that l like as well and brings a different sonic perspective. Fun. However, thus far the 2170 on its own is my easy favorite. Something about introducing another box with ICs, another power cord, longer signal paths etc.....must play a role here. I know this is counter to our audiophile separate boxes for everything dogma. Even I had to break through this strong experiential bias when trying the 2170 initially.

Thank you for the details. Considering the components that it replaces, it's sounds like it's a steal. My Yggy + SS pre + $800 budget Kingko EL84 amp comes in at a higher cost. 

On paper, an Ulfberht variation + the TDAI-2170 could set the bar for price / performance. 

Yes we as audiophiles can now put together amazing sounding systems for reasonable money. Great options such as those from Tekton, Lyngdorf, LTA and others.  

I'm with imswjm, the TDAI 2170 seems almost too good to be true. No interconnects, 1 power cord, short signal paths, plenty powerful, RoomPerfect, and grannyring has tried to advance it's sonics with other amps unsuccessfully, the unit as is is top shelf. It can take HDMI in, so BluRays get included. Grannyring, have you any opinion on the  ICC (INTER-SAMPLE CLIPPING CORRECTION) ? I'm really surprised the TDAI 2170 hasn't gotten more traction/exposure given the stellar reviews? It's too bad he doesn't own DIs.

ICC, well it is always active and I have not listened with it off. I must say I don't know that much about it and should read more in my manual. My bad. I will do so now. 

Here is the explanation from the Lyngdorf site. I understand the point and just know it, the unit,  sounds very good:)  Someone smarter than I in these matters, such as Almag, can perhaps comment on the theory anyway. 

"ICC (INTER-SAMPLE CLIPPING CORRECTION)

When music is being mastered, the level is often very high; upon analysis, you will often find several consecutive maximum samples, indicating something has been clipped away from the original signal. Audio that exceeds 0 dBFS (decibels relative to full scale) will sound very compressed because the headroom is nonexistent. This harsh sound is an unfortunate trend in the music industry and is typically referred to as “the loudness war.”

In order to compensate for this, we have created ICC (Inter-sample Clipping Correction). With ICC, the TDAI-2170 can automatically adjust up to 12dB headroom in the signal processing to avoid clipping of the signal. Through this you will enjoy the full dynamic range and a more natural sound."

http://www.lyngdorf.com/media/43162/without-icc.jpg?width=1800&height=1350&mode=crop&qua...

http://www.lyngdorf.com/media/43163/with-icc.jpg?width=1800&height=1350&mode=crop&qualit...

Hi Bill (Grannyring),

I’ve had occasion to examine the waveforms and associated statistics of tracks from about a dozen or so CDs, encompassing pop, rock, and classical music, using a professional audio editing program (Sound Forge). Most did not have a single sample that reached full scale (i.e., the maximum possible digital value). A couple of them did, both being classical works having very wide dynamic range, but even in those cases that only occurred for a handful of brief instants during the course of a lengthy work. While on the rest of the CDs the maximum instantaneous volume of any sample ranged between a fraction of a db below full scale and many db below full scale. And I would expect in cases where the maximum sample value comes close to full scale that the original captures were made with much greater margins, and levels were subsequently boosted during the mastering process with software assuring that the maximum sample value would not reach 0 db.

In general, I would expect that with the possible exception of some works having extremely wide dynamic range any reasonably competent recording engineer would make a point of not over-driving (exceeding the maximum possible digital value of) the A/D converter.

So I would not expect the issue referred to in the ICC writeup to be much if any concern on the vast majority of recordings.

Also, the major contributor to what is referred to as the "loudness wars" is not what is described in the writeup. That term is usually used to refer to dynamic compression that is intentionally applied in the engineering of the recording, to make soft passages louder and loud passages softer. That creates the perception of a louder recording than if dynamics were not compressed, and makes the recording better suited to noisy environments, such as cars, and more attention grabbing in such environments.

So the bottom line seems to me to be that **IF** the ICC is implemented such that it does nothing unless samples reach 0 db (full scale) it will make no difference on most recordings, and only an occasional difference on the others.

Best regards,
-- Al

The Lingdorf product that most interests me (but out of my league) is the MP-50. The thing I am trying to understand is that I understood that the shortest path between analog and digital is one of their hallmarks. The MP-50 is strictly a processor (as are most on the market that are not an AV receiver). So since this requires an outboard multi-channel amplifier, doesn’t that make the analog-digital path the same as any other product on the market? I am not getting something basic here I think. The Lingdorf products are excellent but not value like I perceive the DI or Vidar to be. Those are champagne at beer prices whereas the Lingdorf is champagne at champagne prices. Not to say it is not worth it, but not the kind of value I try and look for.

Thanks a bunch Al. Your post makes complete sense.

Vitop, the Lyngdorf is a killer value when one looks at it in its whole. It is not an amp. It is a complete rig with other add-ons and options. I replaced over $22,000 worth of separates and wire with a $4000-$4500 unit. That’s seems to me to be a killer value. Others are doing the same.

I sold the following when I picked up the 2170.

- Tube Research Labs preamp - Super Dude
- Luxman DA06 dac
- Von Gaylord tube monoblock smps
- all manner of room correction panels and traps
- 4 power cords
- digital cable
- 2 set of ICs
- various footers

That’s what going to a one box solution does.

I also gained many other capabilities that I did not have before. Room correction is the biggest one. So yeah, please consider the cost of a preamp, dac, amplifiers, cables, cords, footers, and physical room treatments.

I understand thinking of it as just am amp or int amp, but that is not what it is. My previous preamp alone cost more, much more, than the Lyngdorf. Many folks own a dac or amp or preamp alone that costs more than the 2170 system.

One could purchase the DI speakers for $3000 and the Lyngdorf for $4500.  Great system for $7500 new.  All that is needed is a streamer or computer as a source. Killer value all around when one spends under $10,000 for what is arguably a system that competes with many systems costing 4-10x that. The electronics/wire  driving the high value DI speakers in this scenario are of equal high value.......most spend a much higher percentage on the electronics and wire for their systems.  

I suggest buying the Duelund 16ga stranded copper wire in cotton or NOS Western Electric 10ga copper wire in cotton (speaker cable) for $2-$10 foot depending on the one you choose. No connectors needed and just use the bare wire which is tinned and will not oxidize.  

Great at times for an audiophile! 

Vitop,
The Lyngdorf model used by Bill is essentially a DAC, preamplifier and power amplifier. Assuming that it in fact sounds as good as he says then it’s a tremendous value proposition. If it outperformed his previous system of Luxman DAC,TRL DUDE line stage and a good tube or SS amplifier, this is genuine value and obvious simplicity,

"If" it could honestly duplicate the purity and organic rightness of my Yamamoto DAC (with Duelund CAST coupling capacitors) DHT Line Stage and DHT SET amplifier I’d buy it like yesterday. All that’s important to me is the sound quality. I have a breath of life quality that I won’t do without.
Charles

The Lyngdorf is certainly exceptional value. 

On another note, I cannot wait to hear the Double Impacts again. I have no idea what to expect in my environment, but...I don't know. Will it sound good?!!! I'm favoring, yes. 

Hi Bill, 
Your response posted before mine by mere moments,  same thought pattern however 😊
Charles 

I think there are two different value propositions here based on the Lingdorf unit under discussion. The 2170 has multiple units combined and the price point is $4500.
I am only looking at multi channel capability so although the 2170 would be something I would consider for stereo, it is a non-starter for me.
Their multi-channel offering is 10k and needs external amplification and so that was the basis of my initial question. How much of the Lingdorf "all in one signal path" that pertains to the 2170 really extends to the 50 processor when it needs external amps like the other AV processors?

Understand vitop.

@charles1dad

I have watched you build your system over the years. You have been very careful and deliberate in building exactly want you want and desire in a system. Your system is first rate and there is little chance throwing out all your wire and electronics for the Lyndorf in one instant will yield the same results for you. Little chance. Ok - infinitesimal.

I greatly respect your approach, experience, and passion for good music. I wish I could hear your system as I am sure I would connect with it deeply. Well done for sure.

Hi Bill,
I really appreciate your very kind comments (I know you only write/say what you truly mean). I do believe that the Lyngdorf is as good as you describe. Although it may not seem like it given my admiration /affection for DHT tube based electronics, I am open minded to the new and different.

Being the pragmatist that I can be at certain times, I just like to hear an audio product prior to forming any conclusions. Bill I strongly suspect that we’d enjoy each other’s audio systems very much.
Charles

Just another friendly reminder to tighten up your drivers. The bigger the driver, the more turns I was able to achieve. I finally got around to doing it today. 

@vitop  Before getting the Double Impacts I was focused on building a home theatre system. I was actively looking at Pre/Pros and the Lyngdorf MP-50 was a possibility, though a stretch for me at it's asking price and the fact that it was a brand new product. It had just been released and there were bugs that were being worked out.

I'm guessing you are following it over at AVSForums. If not, take a look at the dedicated thread with active dealer updates and support.

You are right in pointing out that the TDAI 2170 and the MP-50 are very different products.

The target audience / buyer of the MP-50 is very different than the 2170. And the applications are vastly different. 

If your concerns are around adding external power amps and cabling, I wouldn't be. 

I just read a really good review on the Electrons. It’s not posted yet, so I can’t cite the text yet; nevertheless, yeah, we’re talking the same sentiments that the Electrons fight well above their class against speakers that are 3 to 4xs as much.

One of the main themes of his review is to let them break in, as he wasn’t a fan right out of the box.

I have mixed feelings about speaker break in. I know there is a small physical element to speaker break in, perhaps 25-50 hours, but perhaps the rest is the ear/brain connection. But, I mean, I really don’t know. I had some full range single drivers once that I let play for 200hrs and I couldn’t tell the difference from before and after.

Still, in this case with the Electrons the guy is pretty happy!

David:
I'm not concerned about it. You have to do it on all other processors. The only thing is that having to do that negates the Lyngdorf benefit of shortest possible signal path. Therefore, whereas I see the benefit of the 2170 versus other products in the market, the benefits of the MP-50 seem to be more around their type of room correction. There are other in the marketplace that can do what the MP-50 appears capable of other than the proprietary correction system. The others only have 11 channels, whereas the MP-50 has 16. I did not even know that any playback system uses that many channels. Perhaps they are for remote channels. I kind of moved on after the price of 10k. I am very happy with my Anthem at its price point.

The only point I was trying to make (and apparently not very well), was that I see the value and technological advantages of the 2170, but I do not see the value or the technological leadership in the MP-50 to justify the price.

evolvist,

Nice info on the electrons,do you know when that review maybe printed or posted.

My opinion about speaker breakin is the passive parts in the crossovers need more time to settle and form and most drivers breakin quite quickly.Anytime that I have changed parts in a speakers crossover It's like starting over again in sound till they get some time on them.

Kenny.

@vitop  We are on the same page! : ) At the end of my research I ended up with the Anthem being the best choice for me as well, albeit with a separate chain for 2ch.

David:
I think the Anthem is a good unit. I used to have an Arcam and it really was very good. It only had a few HDMI ports and they did not make a new processor so I started looking at other units. I like the feature set of the Marantz. It is expensive but it can also do a lot. The 8802 is the one with the better DAC. I almost bought one, but while I like the sound, it has a signature warmness to it. It's not that I don't like it, but I value having the sound being as accurate as possible. I did not perceive that being the case with the Marantz processor. I ended up with the Yamaha. It really is also very feature laden. I thought the sound was more accurate. I ended up with the Yamaha CX-A5000 and believe it or not, it sounded better than the Arcam. Noticeably better. It surprised me.
I just recently decided to move to 4K TV and am now selling the Yamaha and bought the Anthem. I almost bought the newer version of the Yamaha because I was so happy with it and because it has a better feature set than the Anthem. In the end, the better sonic qualities of the Anthem and the better room correction won me over. The higher feature set of the Yamaha would have been nice, but I noticed a slight improvement over the Yamaha with the Anthem so I am glad I bought that. Having to use a PC for room correction is a minor pain, but I am glad I went with the Anthem.

@kdude66 , no, I don't know when the review is going to be posted. It should be soon. 

Yeah, you're right about the crossovers and such. Whatever I end up with I'm going to pretty much play them 24/7 for awhile. 

Great to hear audio enthusiasts talking about value audio systems and room correction. Here's was what my road to value looked like.

When my receiver performing preamp duties for my 2 channel died, I switched to a used W4S dac-2 (doubling as pre-amp) fed with a home built pc with Live Dirac, Roon/Tidal,HQPlayer and Jriver. I stayed with 2 channel since I couldn't find quality surround dacs with room correction at affordable prices. I briefly entertained the idea of a Marantz 8802 pre/pro purchase, but realized I was more interested in hifi music - not spreading money over a dozen speakers. If I wanted to spend more money, that would be in the mains.

Basically, the dac and correction cost $1000 plus computer costs (everyone has one of those right?). The sound quality improvements with the dac were thrilling, but the once room correction was in place, my jaw dropped. Not sure how I ever thought my system sounded good before that. 

One thing I've learned (personal preference) is that audio system enjoyment is proportional to the quality and selection of your source material. A lossless music streaming computer based audio/video system that allows me to watch 2.0 DTS-MA blu-ray through Jriver, rip blu-rays, surf the net and play video games (super quiet PC build) is satisfying indeed.

That was value to me. $1000 + power amps which allows me to integrate tube sound (not offered by the Lyngdorf - just sayin'). The only drawback is that it takes a wee bit of tinkering on a computer, or a bit more for building a computer with the ideal quiet/gaming pc at reasonable cost trade.

So glad I didn't punch the "easy button". 

@bullitt5094

Please check your messages.  

I picked up a Calyx CTI this weekend. Sounds awesome with the DIs. What a wonderful little integrated. Very very precise with a hint of warmth and great flow or prat whatever you want to call it. 

@brotw

I too use Dirac Live room correction, but I can not play DSD files with the Dirac Processor running.  Have you experienced anything like this?  Run JRiver directly to my dac and the DSD files will play in their native resolution, but not so with Dirac in the loop. 

I have a non dsd dac and have not tried dsd. There can be streaming issues with Dirac due to the convolution time delays. I have to rip to mkv to avoid pops and set a large buffer in jriver.

Dirac may be a 90% soln as I still have to disable it for games and non roon\tidal streaming. HQplayer may output native dsd to Dirac. Thats how i run roon

Yeah, Dirac Live does not do DSD. It maxes out at 24/96 I believe. 

Looks like you can getter done through HQplayer via down sampling to 24/192 pcm (dirac filters up to 24/192)
http://www.signalyst.com/consumer.html 
but I digress, now back to the double impacts? 

I know this question has at least been partially touched upon, but I wonder if there is a consensus, to wit, how far is optimal placement of the DIs from the front wall? 

I generally have no more than 2ft or so from the front wall to work with, and roughly 2ft from the side walls if I'm to keep about 6.5ft between the speakers. 

My good friend Bullitt's DI were less than a foot from the front wall it seemed, yet I didn't hear anything too amiss in his setup. In fact, I emailed him today and told him I was jonesing to hear them again. Haha. Maybe with his new Schitt DAC he'll be getting in this week. 

But yeah, what is your experience with placement? 

@evolvist

 Bullitt's inbox must be full.  I asked him if I could come by to listen too!  I think he said his DAC came already and he was burning it in.  I also remember him saying his DIs were going back in favor of DI Special Editions, so if your going to hear his DIs again, you better hurry.

Evolvist

I do not have a deep room and I remember being concerned because Terry had tested his speakers quite a ways out from the wall and he felt that was optimal (at least if I remember correctly).

I did not have that kind of room and asked Eric about that. he told me that it didn't matter and you could put them close to a wall and they would sound fine. And that's what I plan to do, because.... well I have to :-)