Tekton Double Impacts

Hi Bill (Grannyring),

My post attempts to explain how the DI/MicroZOTL combo can produce **peak** volumes approaching 100 db at typical listening distances, as has been reported here. Most listeners, of course, do not listen at average volume levels that are even remotely close to 100 db. And as I’m sure you’ll realize an average level of a more typical 80 db, for example, would require the amp to deliver an average of only 1% of the amount of power it would have to deliver to produce a 100 db peak.

So my explanation takes into account the need to produce brief dynamic peaks that are much higher than the average level, for most listeners (not including me, as I said) on most or all of their recordings. Although as I said I can’t offer an opinion as to how the combo would sound in doing so. But in that regard I find the numerous experience-based reports that have been provided here to be compelling, and well within the bounds of plausibility.

Best regards,
-- Al

Al, what about dynamic headroom and the role it plays when listening to a particular style or type of music? Below is your explanation on how 1 watt can work with the DI speakers. However I see little mention of dynamic headroom in your comments below? Dynamically challenging music forms would certainly cause the 1 watt amp to show more of its limitations.

I have no doubt that this 1 watt amp can play less dynamically challenging music forms to satisfactory listening levels, but when far more power is needed for those short dynamic peaks on certain kinds of music, one would think the little amp that could would run out of gas. Love to hear your thoughts. Thanks Al.

"The speaker is rated to produce an SPL of 98.82 db at 1 meter for an input of 2.83 volts. Let’s call it 99 db. 2.83 volts into 4 ohms corresponds to 2 watts. So the 99 db becomes 96 db for a 1 watt input. Assuming that falls off with increasing distance at a rate of 6 db per doubling of distance, which is typical for non-planar speakers, at a typical listening distance of say 10 or 12 feet the 96 db would be reduced to about 86 db. If both of the speakers that are present are supplied with 1 watt, the overall acoustic power that is radiated into the room would increase by 3 db, relative to the output of a single speaker, but the increase would approach 6 db if the listener is approximately centered. That brings us to 92 db. “Room gain,” i.e., the effects of reflected energy in the room, would conceivably add something like 3 db or so. That brings us to 95 db. And probably another few db would be added as a result of some combination of dynamic headroom, conservatism in the 1 watt spec, and a small amount of clipping that would not be perceivable as such. Voila!

Here is a simple definition of dynamic headroom given by a fellow Agoner on another thread. 
" In plain English
...means an ability to reproduce a large interval between 'quiet' and 'loud'.
The sound system (mainly defined with amplifier and speakers for dynamic headroom) with large dynamic headroom does not compromise the sound quality with large increase or decrease of sound."

I totally agree with Charles. People LOVE the coloration added by tubes. And that is great. I  personally don't. I want my signal path to be as close to the proverbial "wire with gain" as possible. It it wasn't "warm" when it was recorded. I don't want it to sound "warm" in my listening environment. I want a clean sheet of paper, then if I want to add characteristics, I can do that digitally and totally control it. But to Charles' point, we should be buying what sounds good to us. And then throw in the varying listening environments, music types, listening levels. All our expectations are different and that's OK. The one comment in this whole thread that rubs me the wrong way is when it was stated that if you every hear a SET amp, you'll never like anything else, or something to that effect. 

Porscheracer, if you haven’t seen it already I would recommend that you take a look at a post I provided in this thread on 4-16-2017, in which I attempted to explain how the DI/MicroZOTL combo can provide SPLs approaching 100 db at typical listening distances, as has been reported. The post appears about 1/4 of the way down on this page.

Now not having ever heard the DI or any of the LTA amps I can’t provide an opinion as to how that combo would sound when asked to do so. And as I alluded to in my previous post, for me an amp/speaker combination that can’t cleanly produce 105 db peaks at my 12 foot listening distance would be a non-starter. But as others have made clear in the preceding posts we have seen numerous reports of great results from that combo here, from highly experienced audiophiles, which leads me to have little doubt that for most listeners on most or all of their recordings the results would be outstanding.

Regards,
-- Al
(Porsche owner)

Hi Mac,
You raised such an interesting yet complex point, the very legitimate notion of science versus "art ". These are two serious entities that matter if one wants to create a superior quality and "sounding " audio component. Where does one end and the other begin? What percentage does science and art each contribute? One thing is certain, both aspects are required.

No question that solid engineering principles and application are mandatory for the good measurements, reliability, safety and quality of construction. I definitely believe that good engineering is a requirement for good sound as well. Yet when it comes to sound quality there’s undeniably more involved to complete the process.

For example Stereophile reviewers Art Dudley (particularly so) and Michael Fremer have raved about certain amplifiers that sound absolutely marvelous in their opinion. These amplifiers are subsequently tested by JA and obvious flaws in measured performance are inevitably exposed. What is going on here?

Is it the "art" factor that made these amplifiers sound so exceptional to the respective reviewers despite their relatively poor test bench results?
Then there are the amplifiers that test and measure in excellent fashion and yet disappoint when actually listened to.

Mac you raised a very compelling point. This is why I will just listen and judge what I hear. If we aren’t buying audio products based on how they sound reproducing music, what then is the criteria? I for one can't just rely on science and math alone.  If this were the solution the perfect amplifier  (or any audio product) would be available based on the proper calculated math equations.  Art is a profound factor. 
Charles

Porscheracer,

While it goes against convention I can confidently say the MZ2's one watt drives the DI's beautifully with no flatness, distortion or loss of dynamics or bass. Nelson Pass could probably explain how it does so but I can't. There's an art and science to everything. I can attest to the art and how wonderful the MZ2 sounds but not to the science as to how it does. Frankly I don't care about the science, only the sound matters to me. I was TOTALLY skeptical about the MZ2 being able to drive the DI's properly but figured I'd need it for a pre amp anyways so why not try? It's been eye ( and ear ) opening! I guarantee that if you tried it you'd be as shocked and perplexed as I. I'll let others here explain how one watt is sufficient to drive HE speakers but trust me when I say it produces some of the most musical sound within its limits.....which is a sound level of about 95 db in my room with my listening position 7.5' away. 

The DI's will sound great with a powerful quality SS amp, but don't rule out that they won't with one watt......physics or not. As good as my 220 watt Kismet Monoblocks were ( and they were very good) I prefer the MZ2 driving the DI's. You might prefer the SS amps but if you heard the MZ2 with the DI's you would be quite impressed. 

Has anyone compared the stock Double Impact setup to the $300 upgrade version? I was just curious if anyone heard a difference. I ordered the $300 upgrade......

What I am posting about has nothing to do with the "sound" of an amplifier. That is different than the power of an amplifier and what is considered "clean" power.

Let’s assume for a minute that the 1 watt is enough to drive the DI speakers with no clipping distortion. That means that they are only using .1 watts at their average level. Are you ready to go there? .1 watts???

This is when I start to worry about what people are reporting and have a hard time believing it. IF a 1 watt amp is working well for someone with these speakers, either the music has no dynamic range or their ears aren’t hearing the clipping. Or, they listen at whisper sound levels. Yes, tube amps do usually clip much less obtrusively than solid state. But there are limits......

I am not saying you need 400 watts per channel. But 1 watt, on paper when you do the math, comes up on the wrong side of what is enough power.

I don’t even have my speakers yet. They should be here on Tuesday or Wednesday. I will have two Vidar amps ready to test. I will try them in a monoblock setup that has 400 watts a channel at 8 Ohms (not rated at 4 Ohms) and with a single Vidar at 200 watts per channel at 4 Ohms. One Vidar has more than enough power but I like the advantages you get in monoblock mode. When using one Vidar you have to use SE inputs while in monoblock mode you use XLR inputs.

Porscheracer, Yes I see where you’re coming from and having people posting here with different perspectives is a good thing. I do accept certain foundational principles but only to a limited degree. I’ll admit that the further I’ve gone along in this endeavor the more I’ve come to rely on my ears. There’s been too many experiences where what "should have been" is defeated by what "was" the case based on listening.

I get the point of the many articles about clean amplifier power and low distortion figures etc. Based on that line of reasoning Halcro amplifiers should have been phenomenal sounding and the standard by which other amplifiers are judged. It didn’t work out that way, not by a long shot. Many variables matter in achieving superb sound quality from an amplifier.
Charles

I am not saying anything about my requirements room size or amplifier choice. The physics part is that it takes power to move the voice coils in the various drivers. Even if you listen at low volume levels.

Look at section 2 here:

http://sound.whsites.net/articles/pwr-vs-eff.htm

To quote:

"To reproduce a signal with a 10dB crest factor cleanly (without clipping distortion) means that if your average level requires 10W, the peaks will need 100W - a 100W (minimum) amplifier is needed to get 10W of clean undistorted average electrical energy."

That's the physics part!

Hi Porscheracer,
I have no doubt that a higher powered transistor amplifier is the right choice for your satisfaction and peace of mind. You must select what is most appropriate and reassuring. I’d however be wary of citing the laws of physics to make your case. You know what you want and believe high watt solid state will get you there, go for it.

For you to write that the 1 watt LTA MZ2-S will sound "flat" is in direct contradiction to what Mac, Kenny,Lancelock , Teajay and others have reported based on actually listening. Personally I will always place more weight on one’s actual listening experiences than on the one whose’s opinion is based on theory and conjecture

I’ll concede you could hear the 1 watt MZ2-S and may not care for it (simply not to your taste) but that would not invalidate what others here have reported. My gut feeling is that it is as good as they have stated.
Charles .

When is all is said and done, the one common finding is that the DI's sound damn good no matter what type of amplification is employed. Hi or low power, SS or tube, budget or elite. It seems like people have achieved different ways to get to the same completely satisfying end point. 

Porsheracer,

I'm not trying to disagree with the physics or anybody else's opinions at all,I learned most of what has been said on this subject about 30 yrs ago and I know what I hear in my system.

The question I have for you is what are your music preferences,volume levels and the size of your room where your going to put your DI's.

That would probably give us all a better understanding of your requirements.

The playback of music in the home has and always will be highly subjective and really there is no right way or wrong way,It all comes down to the individual music lover and audiophile to make his or hers own choices.

Best,
Kenny.

1 watt does generate volume...but simple physics tells us it is impossible from 1 watt to reproduce music in the best possible way. It has no choice but to sound flat compared to more appropriate power levels for the speakers. This is especially true with music recorded with more dynamic range.

Charles,

Right on,+1.

Gentleman,

I probably come close to trying more different amps,from 1watt to 700watts,than all the amps combined from the majority of DI owners on this thread.So I know without a doubt what kind of pwr that I need for my system,room,music preferences.

I stand by my statement that the 1 watt Micro ZOTL sounds absolutely beautiful and does not sound anemic in the least.

Lance made this statement and I totally agree with him,The MZ2 is quite remarkable on it's own in my system playing 90% of the music I listen to and will reach peaks of low 90's at my listening position 10 feet away,that is with the volume knob almost all the way up and I have'nt yet heard any sign of strain,compression,loss of bass or dynamics or clipping.It just simply runs out of volume and that should be a given I'ts only 1 watt but it's a Glorious,Sweet,and powerful sounding 1watt.

 I'm still in amazement that the little guy can pwr speakers the size of these DI's as well as it does.

Now If I want to listen louder or listen to classical symphonic music Obviously I'm going to need a little more pwr,Or if I want a different flavor in sound just hook a pwr amp up to it,The MZ2S plays very well with every amp that I have used with it.

And the pairing of the MZ2 with the Zotl40 is the best sound I've ever heard in my system and I have only played my worst sounding recordings so far,More thoughts on this in time once I sort this all out.

Best,
Kenny.

Given the caliber and experience of most of the posters here, those power requirement charts are nothing new and they do serve a purpose. The focus is on SPL generation which is relevant but ultimately but one factor (amongst many)  when the goal is "overall " sound quality and involvement.

Am I advocating the use of under powered amplifiers? No, I just find there are a multitude of sonic/musical factors that are more crucial and satisfying. Obviously one has to decide their own comfort level in regard to volume. That will no doubt vary individually. Ideally one would want an amplifier that does it all flawlessly and this is not feasible.

Tone, texture, timbre, harmonic overtones, musical ebb and flow, nuance, inner detail, tactile flesh and blood presence. These matter more to some listeners than "how loud can it go". It will simply depend on one’s priorities. There are many paths to musical contentment.
Charles

Hi Corelli,
The feeling is mutual. What draws me to this thread is the maturity and decorum of the contributors and the many informed opinions and perspectives (yet not homogenized). It has avoided (so far) the pointless trolling and people simply looking for a fight.

The topic of discussion is a fascinating speaker in my opinion. A seemingly very high end speaker that’s quite affordable and exceptionally easy to drive (noteworthy IMO). As I’ve written before if I were not so happy with my current system I’d definitely take a chance on the Double Impacts.

This speaker or the SE version driven by the Line Magnetic 508ia or the Triode Labs 2A3 SET is very compelling . This is assuming if I  were to assemble a completely different system from what I currently own. When it’s said that this speaker competes with others that are multiples of its cost I don’t believe this is hyperbole by any means.
Charles

Charles,
I must  say I really appreciate your  contributions to this thread.  Keep it coming!  How someone can post so much on a thread that involves gear that one does not own yet has so much insight in remarkable.
Craig, there  is just as much a place for you and others of differing  opinions.  Please share your experiences with the DI's.  I really an drawn to how we all reach our audio destinations (ok, so none of us ever really get there 100%).
I'm really impressed with the wealth of experience this thread has drawn from.

The DI's are the Swiss Army knife of speakers. I suppose any amp will play with them. I stand by my statement that the 1 watt Micro ZOTL sounds absolutely beautiful and does not sound anemic in the least.

"Let’s get back to reality " Again the implication . I get it 😊
Charles

Hello Corelli, 
Thank you for your kind comments and I thank you for initiating this excellent thread.  I want to be crystal clear,  I believe that the Double Impacts can sound terrific with solid state amplifiers.  My only point  (and Al as well) is the significant benefits of "quality watts" be they tube or transistor.  The Double Impacts affords one the opportunity to hear what high quality but low power amplifiers can do so beautifully.  Not many speakers can do this with such success. 
Charles 

Let's get back to reality:

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2012/04/03/speaker-sensitivity-dynamic-range-and-amplifier-output/

Charles,
You are always so polite.  My hat is off to you.  As Al pointed out, 400 watts is what the speaker is capable of handling. Nothing more, nothing less.  It makes no commentary on what sounds best. 
Craig, feel  free to use a high powered amp.  Your DI's will sound great!.  Just be careful of your hearing.  I use a solid state amp and am pleased as I can be.
Yet I must respect the thoughts of others on this thread that really have a wealth of experience that I probably never will (too busy riding my bike, landscaping,  taking care of my fish, etc)
When it comes to most things in life, including watts, quality trumps quantity every time.

Hi Al, You posted while I was still typing 😃
But yes I picked up on that same comment regarding speaker power handling capability. As usual your point was well made. The"required" used by Craig was not factual IMO.
Charles

The implication seems to be that because the DI can accommodate up to 400 watts this means that this is the preferred or optimal power requirement for this speaker. There is also  the skepticism raised concerning the adequacy of 1 watt of power driving the DI despite the (by now) numerous testimonials by owners who attest to this outcome.

Again as I have written previously in this thread, clearly the DI is quite sucessful paired with amplifiers from one end of the power spectrum to the other. If my inference to the several posts above is misguided then I stand corrected.
Charles

Craigl59 7-16-2017
There’s another way to look at power and the DIs. Eric specifies the power handling of the speakers at 400 watts. That’s what I use to judge how large an amplifier is required.

I would respectfully but emphatically disagree with the use of the word "required." A more appropriate interpretation, IMO, would be that the specification of "400 watt power handling" provides a rough ballpark indication of the maximum amplifier power capability that is recommended as being reasonable for use with this speaker.

Also, as Mac alluded to, for a given amplifier type and topology it can be expected that everything else being equal more amplifier watts = more amplifier $. Therefore for a given amplifier budget paying for watts that will not be utilized would in general mean that a higher percentage of that budget than necessary will go toward watts rather than sound quality.

One of the reasons I chose my Daedalus Ulysses speakers, which like the DI have a very benign impedance curve, fairly high sensitivity, and high power handling capability ("recommended power 5 to 300 watts, peak power 600 watts +") is that I wanted the majority of my amplifier dollars to go toward sound quality, rather than watts. And even though I frequently listen to well recorded minimally compressed classical symphonic recordings which reach brief dynamic peaks of close to 105 db at my listening position, I have been very happy with my 70 watt VAC Renaissance amplifier. And perhaps its 30 watt smaller brother would even have been suitable as well, but I wanted to be sure that the margin between necessary power and power capability would be comfortable while not being excessive.

Regards,
-- Al

What is the law of physics and "facts" that proclaim that the High power transistor amplifier will sound superior to the low power tube amplifier? There is no such law or fact. What is true is each genre of amplifier has its strengths and weaknesses and individual listeners ultimately choose what suits them best
Teajay clearly preferred  the 3 watt 2A3 SET Triode Labs over his Pass Labs XA 60.8 amplifier. I strongly suspect that Craig and Porscheracer would opt for the big Pass Labs. Each of these fine amplifiers have unique attributes to offer and will obviously attract different groups of listeners.

I would choose as Teajay, nothing to do with physics, rather plenty to do with how we hear and interact with music,. This isn’t a right or wrong choice, it is everything about how people listen and what they key in to,.
Charles

No disagreement from me at all Craig. I agreed that using large amps certainly isn't a bad thing and that I spent many years going that route......and enjoyed doing so and that my current preference are small tubes amps. The great thing about the DI's is that they sound great going either way. As we all know its the quality of watts that matters more than the quantity.......my budget doesn't allow me the luxury of a quality 400 watt tube amp :) That would be something to hear with the DI's! I've always been of the mind that you can't have too many watts, as long as they are quality watts and I still have trouble believing how good the MZ2 sounds driving the DI's. It's as much of an endorsement of the DI's as it is of the MZ2......the DI's will sound amazingly good with any type of quality amp. I agree that physics and facts reign supreme and am not ignoring them but in the end it all comes down to our personal preferences. Here's a toast to enjoying our systems no matter the configuration.......I'll be doing so delving into the Leonard Bernstein collection tonight!

Mac: The power handling figure provided by Eric is not his preference; it is the result of the drivers chosen and his computation of those drivers sounding within the crossover design. It is clear that you like small tube amps and I have read and benefited from your perspective. But let's distinguish between facts and preference. Porscheracer is correct in referring to Physics and Eric's specifications are facts.

Agreed, overkill wasn't the right word to use, but 40 watts certainly isn't necessary with the DI's......that doesn't mean having more wattage is a bad thing either. The ZOTL 10 would be plenty for the DI's, yet Terry London prefers using the MZ2 alone over the MZ2/ZOTL 40 combination and prefers the MZ2 with the Triode Lab 2A3 SET amp the most. Until living with one watt driving the DI's I would have never believed it would suffice let alone outperform the 220 watt SS monoblocks I was using before going to tubes. While the big amps were certainly louder, more dynamic and sounded very good, to my ears they didn't come close to the musicality and realism of the MZ2......especially with good NOS tubes.

Youre right Craig, Eric prefers large SS amps with his speakers. I believe he recommended Bryston to me. I don't dislike SS amps, I especially like the dynamic slam they can provide, but over the years I've gone from the likes of the ARC D400, Levinson 333 and Odyssey Kismet Monoblocks to small tube amps. Eventually I'll have an SS system for HT and rocking out to in addition to my DI/tube system. 

@porscheracer - I agree now that I'm listening to another amp and have a decent amount of headroom.

@mac48025 - I will try out the ZOTL40 next.

There's another way to look at power and the DIs. Eric specifies the power handling of the speakers at 400 watts. That's what I use to judge how large an amplifier is required.

Just because 1 watts seems to work doesn't mean it is "best". I don't see how you can say that 51 watts is overkill. From a physics standpoint, this makes no sense.

Lance,

Still just using the MZ2 to drive the DI's or have you moved the ZOTL 40 into that system? While the ZOTL 40 would be overkill with the DI's I'd be interested if you find the DI's sound better with only the MZ2 as teajay did. As you know I'm loving the DI/MZ2 combination and am only considering adding a 2A3 SET amp to add more texture and SET tube magic, not for more power as the MZ2 is amazingly dynamic with terrific bass. It boggles the mind that a mere one watt can produce such glorious sound. Hallelujah!

@craigl59 - I found the set easily, looks like something to try out.

I am approaching the 200 hour mark on the DI's and with some new components in the chain the sound is sooooo good. Listening to Patricia Barber "cafe blue" and am practically having an out of body experience, so very holographic.  It is Sunday morning, perhaps I've found my new religion. It is glorious.

Useful resource for assessing file types.
Classic Sound Ltd. issued the complete Nielsen symphonies in 2015 with an interesting format -- all of the major music file types are made available in a 4-disk bluray set.
Individual SACD disks are provided for regular SACD playback. Then an additional content disk is added that offers the following downloads of the same original master in these formats:
5.1 DTS-HD MA 24/192
2.0 LPCM 24/192
Stereo DSD files
Flac files at 24/96
Wave files at 16/44.1
MP3 at 320k
SO, you can easily compare all of the popular file types on your system (and your DIs, of course) and see which you prefer. I was surprised at which type sounded the best on my system.
It's LSO/Nielsen or LSO Live and available on Amazon for only $22. These are good interpretations by a major orchestra and superbly-well recorded. Outside of the above comparison quality, the set offers, as well, a SOTA listening experience for the orchestral genre. This is the first time I have seen downloads available for SACD/Bluray content. Copies into JRiver easily.

me too

I'm Guilty of using some Russian Tubes before.

@Corelli, I will talk when I can. For now I am sworn to secrecy. I have never met with any Russians.

Grannyring:Very impressive -- must sound extraordinary. Thanks for the info.

Wow. If I do 100 in day I need some inspiration and a tail wind coming home!
Lance, the prototype you listened to--and details?  My hope would be for a MZ2 preamp/power amp/power supply all in one box.

I did quite a bit of cycling once upon a time. The most insanely dedicated cyclist I've ever met is David Berning (ZOTL designer). 150 miles in a day? No big deal. He once delivered an amp strapped to the back of his bicycle. The man doesn't own a car.

@grannyring - i bet getting rid of the speaker binding post made good improvement.

Craigl59

Mods performed to my Lyngdorf 2170, 

I installed an Audio Magic Pulse ZX and Mad Scientist Neo Kegs in the power supply. In addition, I upgraded the output caps to Jupiter replacing the Wima caps. I also used constrained layer damping material throughout the chassis and other key areas.  Lastly I bypassed the binding posts and "direct wired" the output leads to the speaker cables using the posts as a clamp only.

Watching the Tour and like how close the race is! I'm also a road cyclist. Lots of aphiles seem to like cycling it seems. 

Well I got about 2000 miles in this year so far on my bike. But ...... it's got a big ass motor! Maybe I should go the peddly route and I wouldn't be such a fatass! Lol 

One analogy might be how a normally aspirated 911 would destroy a Dodge Demon on the track when it comes to lap times...😏

I would say you are winning on both.

Wow you must ride a lot.

Best,
Kenny.