Tell about your experience with your old Audio-Technica SL-1200s..

Seems you've got the tt's naming conflated, and therefore confusing.  Do you mean a Technics SL-1200?  Or an Audio-Technica LP120?  

Here is a story:

I still have a pair of upgraded SL1210 mkII in my second system, I bought them in 1995. After all those cheap Ortofon, Shure, Grado (MI and MM) cartridges I finally bought Technics 205c mk3 then mk4 and I was blown away! I tried those rare Technics carts rebuild, re-tipped, with JICO SAS Boron and finally with original stylus (it was the best). And it was a huge impact to start digging for a better cartridges, I tried modern LOMC (it wasn’t better).

When I was ready for upgrade I decided to buy Technics SP-10 mkII and it was HUGE upgrade over my old SL1210mkII with all the tweaks. My choice of tonearm was EPA-100, but then I bought "12 inch Thomas Schick and finally Reed 3p "12 inch.

Then I discovered Technics SP-20, here you can see my SP-10 mkII and SP-20 (black).

After several years of searching and trying many direct drive turntables I ended up with this PD-444. I bought a pair and never looked back, clearly my favorite turntable. But my interest in vintage Direct Drive motivated me to buy Victor TT-101 and Denon DP-80.

I had to sell all my Technics (SP10 and SP20 series) turntables to raise funds for other turntables.

P.S. If you want to try something much better and DIFFERENT then I can recommend SP-10 mkII with EPA-100 tonearm (as much better turntable) and Denon DP-80 in original plinth with DA-401 tonearm as something different and better. Those are reasonably priced, so they are best bang for the $$$.

Audio Technica ancient history.

Yes, pardon me - Technics SL-1200 mkii, but not necessarily limiting the discussion to just that model. 

Fundamental: The plinth, platform: Rock Stability for stylus vibration to go only into the cartridge, combined with plinth isolation from the outside world, as that plinth’s rock stability will transfer external vibration superbly as well.

I strongly encourage you/anyone to consider a table that allows two arms,

Possibly one long, but even two 9" arms has the advantage of having two cartridges aligned/balanced, switch back and forth instantly in a listening session. One fixed cartridge, other removable headshell gives benefits and flexibility.

long arm was my initial motivation, next: one stereo; one mono for Jazz was the real advantage.

Lastly, I went overboard and squeezed a 3rd arm on, so I have MC, MM and Mono. Chakster also squeezed a 3rd arm on that amazing Luxman 2 arm deck, a beauty, (too rare for me).

https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/226605637_6255459961138785_8993343520540965874_n....

Using MM for LP’s I sell (less wear on MC). I just easily changed my MM to a friend’s re-discovered MC so we could hear it, easy as that arm has a removable headshell. Easily compare two Stereo Cartridges, enjoy either’s characteristics.

Removable headshell: consider adjustable Azimuth type, a whole lot easier than shims if a squeak of rotation is needed.

I went vintage JVC CL-P2 Plinth and TT81 Spinner. Solid 7 layer plinth on isoblocks worked for me at current location, I have springy wood floors.

Chakster also squeezed a 3rd arm on that amazing Luxman 2 arm deck, a beauty, (too rare for me).

No, since I have two LUX turntables I got 4 tonearms in use (2 per deck :)

A picture with 3 arms on one deck was made when I decided to swap 64fx with 66fx, so I put the long 66fx near the short 64fx to compare. Love these tonearms!

I had a fully KAB modified SL1200 Mk II and it was a very satisfactory turntable in every way.   When introduced, I bought an SL1200GAE and the two sat side by side for perhaps 6 months, one set up for mono and the other for stereo.  The GAE is sonically superior, more open sounding, cleaner somehow, more revealing.  This difference is pretty obvious on all kinds of music, but was especially easy for me to hear listening to Diana Krall singing and accompanying herself on piano.  Not everyone knows it, but all of Diana's recordings are done live and unedited, meaning she does not do dubs or voice overs.  What you hear is what you get.  Piano is very demanding on vinyl because any amount of wow is noticeable.  This is where some people get confused into thinking direct drive is superior.  Really the most important thing is that the hole is centered in the record.  Generally CDs are better than vinyl for piano, but Sony/Columbia and ECM seem to know how to make superior sounding vinyl records when it comes to piano.  But I digress, both the older MkII and the newer G series play Diana well speed wise, with the G being quieter, cleaner and more open.  Anybody will be able to hear the difference.

Sure they will, you are talking about $400 old Technics (still available at this price) versus $4000 new Technics with completely different motor and superior tonearm and cabinet. No questions that G is simply different class of turntables. 

Chakster you are correct, but let's put this into perspective even more.  An SL1200MkII with a full complement of KAB modifications and adjusted for inflation is probably comparable to at least any $1500 turntable on the current market.  It is still a decent turntable.  My GAE sits beside a VPI HW40, a $15,000 turntable currently.  And yes the VPI sounds better.  But the delta between it and the G is not as great as the difference between the G and the MkII.  I am not going to say that the G series is the best compromise between price and performance in high end turntables on today's market because I haven't compared it to every competitive offering in it's price range.  I am going to suggest, however, that it should be given serious consideration by anyone looking to invest in a new high performance turntable regardless of price.  It is quite simply that good.

All KAB mod, except for external power supply, is pretty cheap mod, I did it myself with better parts (cardas wires for tonearm, zu audio mission phono cable, isonoe feet). I removed KAB fluid dampers, they are not necessary if the compliance of the cart is not very high.

You can count inflation rate, but SL1200mk3 always available in Japan for $150-250 used and parts are very cheap. Restored units goes for higher price from resellers for sure.

But the G is another level, even it’s finishing. For those who can spend $15k on a belt drive this G is a great value DD at $4k.

I do not see a relation between SL1200 mk2 series and the new G series, internationally it’s completely different turntable, only dust cover is the same.

People should look for SP-10 mk2 if they want reference class from Technics classics, not the SL1200mk2 for sure. I paid $1200 for SP-10mk2 in mint condition including shipping, now they are a bit more expensive, but this is a great value, not the SL1200 mk2 with all the mods. The SP10mk2 is superior without any mods, the EPA-100 tonearm is superior without any mods.


The SL1200 mk2 is great for $450 today, at this point this is a great value.
For $900 Technics already made brand new Mk7 and for $1700 they made new GR model. The old SL1200 mk2 for higher than $450 is nonsense in my opinion (I bought mine in 1995 and still have them with mods).


But this is what I use in my main system now .

Very good, appreciate the information and pictures that everyone is sharing.  I'm always on the lookout to upgrade whatever pieces of my system I'm focused on at the moment, and right now I'm going through a treasure trove of used LPs I picked up at a Goodwill - my kind of music, and in pretty good condition, one of those they-just-rolled-a-cart-of-the-back moments.  I'm not sure I'm going to stay with Technics for my next upgrade even though there would be less adjustment to a new table - I did in years long ago use the pitch control to make mix tapes and slow pieces down to hear certain portions when learning songs in my band days, but not all in on going for an admittedly better GR (can't really justify the G right now after the money I've recently spent on other pieces) with the pitch adjustment/cue light/strobe - maybe one of used SP's or a VPI table might be the ticket.  Any SP models to stay away from or not worth the trouble?  I know nothing about those, except some have the separate power unit and others that do not.  I see used SP-10's going for not that much but they look kinda cheesy to me, like the ones with the separate speed control wheels.  Better to stay with the SP-10mk2 and above?

It’s not necessary to stay with Technics, but if you want to keep the cost lower than new G then SP-10 mk2 and EPA-100 tonearm is the way to go, you need at least ‘10.5 inch (or longer) tonearm for SP-10 mk2. You can look for ‘12 inch Thomas Schick tonearms (they are new) if your cart is not high compliance. SP-10 mk2 does not have a pitch control of any kind. You will have to make a custom plinth for this drive. 

You could look for PD-444 turntable if you can spend about $2k (probably nearly $3k with tonearm). Two arms can be used, you don’t gave to think about plinth or mods, and this is beautiful turntable.

For the record the VPI HW40 is also a direct drive turntable.  With that said, direct drive or belt drive in high level turntables is not a big difference anymore.  I would not encourage anyone to base a decision based on turntable drive mechanism these days.  

HW-40 costs $15k, but what do we know about that DD motor?

Technics made the best DD motor and SP-10R drive cost about $9k , there are $6k left for assembling a custom plinth and tonearm for SP-10R drive to make a total cost on par with VPI Hw-40, but it’s not necessary to go that high.

Direct Drive motors are not the same, there are very cheap dd motors and very expensive dd motors, high torque or low torque, old and new. The reference is coreless DD motor, now it’s Technics. 

However, I think even $4k for the G is too much for the OP (and I wouldn’t pay more for any turntable too).

I picked up a used SL-1200 MK2 some time back.  It had the KAB RCA upgrade when I bought it.  I added some MNPCTECH feet to it (very worthwhile) and the KAB fluid damper (not much difference if any) and put some FoQ tape on the tonearm (again, not a noticeable difference) and use a Funk Achromat.  I currently have a Soundsmith Aida II cartridge on a LP Gear Zupreme headshell (another very worthwhile upgrade) on it and have been using the MM input on my Herron Audio VTPH-2A phono stage. 

The "lowly" MK2 now sounds nearly as good as my much more expensive main table.  It has responded really well to the headshell/cartridge/phono stage combination I'm using.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with stock Technics headshell, it's one of the lightest headshells on the market (and very cheap). However, for my pair of upgraded SL1210mkII I bought two GOLD Technics shells made for their limited edition gold turntable long time ago, and for my Grado cartridges they are perfect. I think Technics stock headshells are very nice for the money, using a lower compliance carts one may need to find heavier headshells for sure.   

I was using the LP Gear Zupreme head shell because I wanted to adjust the azimuth - problem with that is you can't use the Technics stylus alignment tool because of the way the end is configured.  Anyway, I just couldn't get my Hana SL dialed in, so I changed it to a replacement Technics head shell, and everything fell into place.  The Hana only weighs 5 grams, so maybe that had something to do with it.

Dear biker, I am amazed that you could walk into a GoodWill and find more than one or two LPs out of a hundred or more that are still playable on a decent system. And those one or two are likely to be Lawrence Welk or the like in my experience.

My SL 1200 MK2 came with a cartridge on an Ortofon SH-4 headshell and I bought another and tried a generic headshell.  I haven't tried a Technics headshell.  I've been using the lighter (10 gram) version of the Zupreme. 

85 bucks seemed like a lot to spend for a headshell, but when I looked at it the other way and asked myself why I was connecting cartridges that cost hundreds or thousands of dollars to wires in a cheap headshell, it was worth giving one a try. 

The Zupreme is engineered for rigidity and lack of resonance (according to their marketing material) and more importantly, appears to use much higher quality wires.  I'm not a big "cable guy", but with those small signals, I believe wires do matter.  I'm not an engineer or an electrical engineer, so take all that with a grain of salt. 

My cartridges do sound better on the Zupreme headshells.  

@bikerbw I think you're referring to the Technics overhang gauge when you say "alignment tool"?  It's not that hard to hold the overhang gauge next to the cart and eyeball it and get it reasonably close. 

The only cart I still have on an Ortofon headshell is my Hana SL.  I have a Zupreme waiting for it, I just haven't changed it over yet.  I'll see how it goes and if I remember, I'll report back.  Right now I'm really enjoying the Soundsmith Aida II, so it may stay on the turntable for a while.

As far as the Goodwill LPs - yeah, you won’t find much if anything good if they’ve already been put on the racks. The only way you have a chance is grab them when they’ve been wheeled out from the back and are sitting around, waiting for someone to put them on the racks.  The serious people watch for the carts to come out and pounce on them.  

I tried to get the Zupreme to work, but never could get it dialed in. It sounds so much better now with a silver Technics head shell that I’m afraid to touch anything until I figure out why. I spend a good amount trying to get all of the adjustments right. 

All these shells are aluminum, the main difference is weight and wires. Zupreme made by Jelco. Some other headshells made of magnesium, titanium, wood… One of the cheapest and best new headshells is AT Technihard series (fully adjustable).

There are so many great headshells made in the 70s/80s, my favorite are AudioCraft headshells, they made heavyweight too. Grace carbon-fiber headshells (HS-6) and Grace HS-8 are amazing. Ikeda headshells with overhang adjustment are very nice. Stax made lightweight headshell with azimuth/overhang adjustment. Denon made some nice headshells, Sony made nice headshells. Pioneer made carbon shell. This is the one from Kenwood for example. Technics made Boron-Titanium headshell for the EPA-100 mkII tonearm (unfortunately missed on my tonearm). There are many others. Basically, every manufacturer made their own headshells or ordered them from other manufacturers.

@bikerbw If it ain't broke, don't fix it!  Enjoy the music.  

Off topic, but Chakster asked what motor is used in the VPI HW40.  Brushless Direct ThinGap motor, manufactured by ThinGap LLC of Ventura, California.  This is a world class motor.  For those who might be interested let me share some additional experience that might be pertinent and of interest here.  I compared the VPI with the competitiveTechnics, an Air Force One, and a Technics on an aftermarket plinth using a Shroeder arm.  All were stellar.  The VPI sounded better than the Technics by way of the arm (I suspect), but the Technics arm is much easier to set up, a clear trade-off and depending on priorities a decision could go either way.  In the USA the VPI retails for over $3,000 less than the Technics.  The Technics on the custom plinth with the Shroeder arm sounded better than the VPI be a small margin, but retails for between $4k and $5K more than the Technics here in the USA of upwards of $8K more than the VPI.  The Air Force One sounded perhaps different than the VPI and with it's vacuum hold down probably would prove the most versatile with damaged or warped records.  Although in an attempt to distinguish between the VPI periphery ring and weight vs. the vacuum hold down several us gave up the attempt and called it a draw.  This on one record.  The Air Force One retails for about $3K more than the Technics/custom plinth/Shroeder setup.  At this point let me say that the differences between all three of these turntables were not great.  Very slight differences is sound, ear straining in fact. They are all wonderful and would make any record collector one happy camper.  Ergonomically, which is subjective of course, I personally think Technics is the best.  But, bringing this back to this thread, none of these very expensive turntables is significantly better in any particular way to my SL1200GAE.  In fact, the G series would be my first recommendation and my first choice for anyone looking for a first class turntable.  Yes there are better sounding turntables, but only marginally better and at great addional cost.  No less an authority than Mikey Fremer has said as much comparing turntables costing six figures.  Yes they sound better, a little bit, but only a little bit.  The more I think about it the more impressed I am with the G series.

Technics can be purchased as a separate drive (SP10R) while the VPI is a complete turntable for insane price in my opinion (taking in count that it’s a local US brand). Buying separately Drive, Tonearm, Plinth everyone can find affordable gear combo, for example Technics EPA-100 tonearm for $1500 or luxury EPA-100 mk2 for about $2500 (one of the best tonearms ever made).


Great tonearms available for under $1500. New Technics SP-10R drive cost only about $7k in Japan, vintage SP-10 mk3 is cheaper (and probably better). Every component can be purchased used for less $$$.

Direct Drive motor from Technics (Matsushita) used under the platter of Neumann cutting lathe. Nearly all master lacquers cut with Technics DD motor since the ‘70s. It’s the Rolls-Royce of DD motors while the VPI is new to DD, it was a US manufacturer of belt drive turntables (with unipovot tonearms? ).


But even VPI finally decided  to use DD motor, it’s a good sign.

Chakster, I am not going to debate with you, but I think your lens is broken, or perhaps it is that you are looking at things from a distant land.  A reasonable comparison here in the USA would be a Technics SL1000R, which retails for a bit over $18,000 and is competitive in every way with the VPI HW40, which placed into it's proper perspective cannot be viewed as an insane price at $15,000.  Staying with new, comparable equipment, the Technics SP10R in an aftermarket plinth with a Schroeder arm, as I compared previously because it was in my comparison and under serious consideration, retails here in the USA for almost $23,000.  Comparisons, taken in context and fairly show that these are all competitive, and quite expensive.  They are all first level in quality and performance and can be expected to last for a lifetime or two.  My interest is to convey that the Technics G series works as well, will last as long, and sound so good that only very top level associated systems are likely to reveal the very slight difference in sound quality.  I ask myself, is the difference worth the price?

Chakster, I am not going to debate with you, but I think your lens is broken, or perhaps it is that you are looking at things from a distant land. A reasonable comparison here in the USA would be a Technics SL1000R, which retails for a bit over $18,000 and is competitive in every way with the VPI HW40, which placed into it’s proper perspective cannot be viewed as an insane price at $15,000.

Surely from a distant land, I am not in the USA and I can order directly from Japan where they are at least 35% cheaper (SP10R cost $7k, and I’ve seen it for $5k), I normally think before I buy and search for the best deals worldwide. The reason why new Technics is more expensive in USA (than your local VPI) is because SP10R was Made in Japan in imported to USA.

However, it was clearly stated by the OP than even SL1200G for $4k is too expensive for him.

This is my ex SP-10 mkII ($1200) with 12 inch Thomas Schick tonearm $1200) in a custom made teak wook plinth $700. Total without cartridge is $3100 and this is less than new SL1200G.

This is the same SP-10R with EPA-100 tonearm, but the total is the same.

This is my current setup with a pair of Luxman PD-444 DD for two tonearms each, this turntable can be found in mint condition for $2000-3000, but for higher price it's much easier to find, here is the one for sale.

In my opinion those turntables are better than really good new SL1200G for $4k with its limitations.

When I see a turntable for $15 000 (like VPI) I think this is insane price! My thoughts, exactly. 

You’re comparing something to $15k VPI, but let me compare to reasonably priced high-end turntables that everyone can buy for under $4000 on ebay and they are better than Technics in my opinion, because I owned Technics too (many of them).

If you personally can afford $15k turntable it’s fine, but in my opinion this is way too expensive for any turntable.

Chakster wrote "If you personally can afford $15k turntable it’s fine, but in my opinion this is way too expensive for any turntable."
We can all learn how to do a better job of editing.  The sentence above is all you needed to say.  Interestingly enough I agree.
Take Care.

I bought a Technics SL-1600MKII in 1979.  I used Pickering cartridges. It served me well for a very long time, until I bought a 1200G three years ago.  I gave the 1600MKII to my son two years ago with some other of my favorite vintage gear; it is still going strong.

2 SL-1200 mk II’s
1 SL- 1210 black version is all.

  Had the reg 1200’s mkII for well over 30 years now, 
REMOVE PLATTER, spindle, take apart, wipe clean add 2 -3 drops clean synthetic oil.  Plan on them going to family someday

 they will be good for another  15-20 years.

  No other turntable can say that.
maybe my Dual.....

 best turntable ever made, the motor is crazy reliable, 

can not afford the newer version of the 1200., isn’t it. Starting about 1K$

Thanks everyone for their comments/suggestions - even the ones that strayed a bit from the question because it made me think out of the box, and again I apologize again for hosing up the title.  Haven't bought anything else yet - was about to pull the trigger on a GR but then they evaporated here on the eastern coast, and almost snagged a VPI Classic 1.  Looked at the SP-10 MKII's available but the ones I saw were in the $3-4K range and the others had speed/spindle/damage issues.  Tried yet again to swap the aluminum Technics head shell with the Zupreme but still couldn't get it to sound just right (though I did get the azimuth dialed in near perfectly).  Did the calculations for resonance and came up with 9 Hz for the Technics tonearm and head shell with a Hana SL cartridge and 8 Hz with the Zupreme - not a big difference there but the Zupreme is a bit heavier - 12 grams vs 7.5 for the Technics.  Maybe the installed KAB fluid damper is coming into play here, not sure.  Can't get a definitive reading on the resonance freq from the Analogue Test LP.  I'm holding steady right now, it seems.

It is doubtful that the KAB fluid damper is a contributor to the difference.  I use one too on my GAE, but I prefer the Zupreme.  Like you said, not a big difference and probably comes down to taste.  I also had the same experience back in the day with my Mk II.

I don't understand all the hype about Zupreme headshell, there are probably 20 more amazing headshells available from lightweight to heavyweight, at least 2-3 models from each brand like Orsonic, AT, Entre, Stax, Grace, AudioCraft, Denon, Sony, Victor...  some of them with ovehrang/azimuth adjustment like AT, some with treated mounting holes (to avoid nuts) like AudioCraft and Grace HS-6/8, some are carbon-fiber like Grace HS-6 ... 

My favorites are Grace (HS-6 and HS-8) and all AudioCraft headshells.  

Not a big fan of the table or the arm, but you can work with the table. The arm is pretty bad, so this could be a place to start. 

I have the MK2, all stock, with an AT33Sa MC cart and I'm not going anywhere. Sounds brilliant to me.

Like to keep my options open - any issue with adding the EPA-100 to the SL-1200mkii?  I could take that arm and put it into another table down the line if the mood strikes me, and it would probably be better than any stock Technics arms I replaced.  Thoughts?

I too have my MK ll ( full mod) sitting next to my GAE, the 1200 mk ll fitted w/SME 309 & Hana ml, My GAE has the Zu head shell w/AT 150 mlx & both shells have Nordost Valhalla wire & both running into a MOD Wright 9.0. Now it's the SME gives the GAE, a run for the money. Rite now I don't see me switching arms, I'm too lazy. I feel if it's not broke, don't fix it & btw the new arm of the GAE is a good arm. Both decks have the Herbies mats, but I have the TEAC Washi sheet on the GAE. I'm a fan of Diana Krall & from both decks & different carts, the Hana plays a lil darker. Now I just changed the XLR's from my phono to pre amp (Zu missions to Zavfino fusion), so they still need to break in. 

Would love to put a 309 on my table but they're getting pretty expensive and scarce.  Add in the armboard as well.

The armboards are made from a few sellers. I haven’t seen a 309 for sale in a while. I’m not sure if it would be a major upgrade to swap out the 2 arms. If so, I could do it within an hour!