I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Good to see you here again. If you are the kind of Audiophile whom enjoys rich texture within musical passages, the competition, will always result short. What gear is in your current system?
Hi jafant,
You may be sorry you asked!
I am still sorting things out as I feel feel my Theil setup lacks that "live presence". Got a pair of Tyler Acoustics speakers along with CJ LP66S tube amp. Pretty musical with the CJ 17LS2 preamp. Definitely different for me and a work in progress.
Current main system: PS Audio PWT, Soekris DAC1421, CJ17LS2, DNA-500, Synergistic Research Alpha inconnects, and Thiel CS5i's with thicker than lamp cord for speaker wire. Analog is on hold until cabinet/space logistics are worked out.
The Soekris DAC has about 100 hours on it and may replace my Theta ProBasic III DAC. I believe (I think) the Soekris is providing more detail that helps with overall sound quality including more bite on the front end of bass notes, better ambience, better liquidity, and deeper soundstage. I am in the $3000 to $5000 budget range for a used DAC and the Soekris is meant to educate me about current discrete Ladder DACs. Sounds pretty good for 900 dollars and about 3 pounds. Will spending the extra thousands result in better sound or just in owning another thirty pound DAC?
I have a Don Sachs preamp on order with different output capacitors to manage the 10K ohm input impendance of the DNA-500. The experimentation with the tube amp convinced me to sell my Prima Luna Dialogue preamp and I wanted to try another preamp. The PL just came across as too analytical for my taste/setup. I have been told that the Don Sachs will be like lifting a veil from my speakers. We shall see. Might give me the liveliness for which I am searching.
I am toying with making the plunge to try tube monos with the Thiels. Will not be a cheap endeavor and flies in the face of a lot of advice on this and other threads. I am thinking about Carver 350 monos as place to start as they are supposed to be stable into a one ohm load. Otherwise, things become much more expensive.
Feedback about any of this is desired and appreciated!.
Dspr - I’ll jump in and ask for any and all detail you might develop around this exploration. The ’come alive’ characteristic is something of considerable note in Thiel’s history. After "New Thiel" bought the company in 2013, long-time industry supporter Steve DeFuria came on as sales manager and acting general manager. He experimentally stripped down the XOs of some models (don’t know which) to lose the tight tolerance control that Jim applied to all his drivers. Those simplified crossovers had less stringent frequency response tolerances with less than half the parts count. The listening panel results included "more alive, especially at lower volumes".
In the case of the CS5(i), there are 32 elements in the time delay circuits for the lower and upper midrange drivers. I speculate that removal of those bucket-brigade lines would make the speaker more responsive, but at the cost of time focus. In the 1988 development of the CS5, I wanted to sculpturize the baffle to geometrically time align those drivers. Jim liked electronic solutions - that being his wheelhouse, and we got bucket brigade delay - with 32 extra coils, caps and resistors.
I recall the first Stereophile review by John Atkinson and Larry Archibald who made the 'not alive' complaint. I recall (vaguely-perhaps another product) that substitution of Goertz flat wire raised the veil, as did short cable runs.
I will speculate that bi-wiring would help this problem. Those 3 woofers take tons of current to nearly 10Hz. The electromagnetic propagation effects of that current on the higher frequency time domain reactivity would be substantial. If you split the signal, I suggest ganging the 3 woofers separate from the other three drivers. Jim would disapprove only if you used disparate cables for the two runs. Of course the ultimate configuration is with 4 amps - two pairs of Benchmark AHB-2s would do nicely. We can always dream.
Your present experience points to a big disappointment in Jim’s career and a prime motivation to adopt reflex bass alignments in the upper end products. From the peanut gallery, I see serious merit in further development of his first approach - sealed bass with various means of augmentation. Perhaps a more refined equalizer? Please keep us informed of your experiments and comparisons with other gear.
I find my 3.7s very lively and satisfying at low volumes. I've read that the superior drivers didn't need the very complex crossover that earlier models did. I also run stereo amps bridged mono so the gain is high and I have found that to result in a livelier sound. It might just be that I find the increased distortion pleasing but whatever it is I prefer it.
Thanks for the detailed response. Despite my "live presence" complaint, to my ears the CS5i's are wonderful speakers and I would hate to mess with them too much.
Having said that the bi-wiring idea seems like something that could work without too much triage. Is this the type of thing that can be done by a relative novice (I have replaced woofer surrounds and installed new capacitors in old Large Advents)? I suspect that it is more complicated than simply cutting a wire in each speaker and then rerouting through another set of speaker cable connectors.
When I first got the Thiels, the big concern was finding an amp that could manage them. That took a couple of years to figure out and included lugging around 150 pound amps on loan from my area dealer. The first problem was finding enough current to satisfy the bass drivers. I thought I had it solved with a Coda amp (300 wpc) but I discovered that it lost steam and sounded harsh and constrained at high volumes. The DNA-500 solved that and powers the CS5i's effortlessly at any volume. And it weighs only about 75 pounds.
The next issue was finding a DAC that did not sound bright or harsh with the tweeters. After a lot of in house auditions I found a Hegel HD25 that seemed to do the trick. However, I still was not completely happy. I had been reading good things about the old Theta DACs. I found a ProBasic III for five or six hundred dollars that was definitely superior to the Hegel in my system because it was much smoother and organic.
The aha moment came next when I replaced an AudioSpace CD player with the PS Audio PWT. The added resolution was an ear opener. The additional detail helped the music sound more alive but not more analytical.
I think this taught me that the tweeters were only as a good as the signal they received.
Fast forward to the new Soekris DAC and the same thing happened. I am hearing more detail and the CS5i's are inching closer to sounding like a "live presence" without being analytical. I want to stick with R2R ladder DACs as both the Theta and Soekris are R2R and have been positive moves for me. To my ears, the tweeters do not mate well with Delta Sigma chips.
I think finding a front end with the most amount of detail would be a good thing for the tweeters, hence my continuing DAC quest. I am also wondering if updating the transport would help. Figuring out which one will be another whole story.
So lots more work to do before tackling the analog side of things! In the meantime, the classic vinyl rock collection will have to be happy with a Technics 1200SL table with KAB mods.
Thank You for the follow up. That is quite a collection of gear. Conrad Johnson/McCormack will become a lively, sonic, match for the CS5i loudspeaker. Good to read that your employing Synergistic Research (SR) cabling. Are you using a full loom? A Don Sachs pre-amp is highly regarded. I did not know that he was still in business?
dsper - among my blue-sky imaginings for the CS5, you picked the one that is actually feasible. Bi-wiring is not only feasible, but easily reversible if desired. And it's quite simple; the wires from each circuit go all the way to the single binding posts. So, adding a pair of posts simply requires unsoldering and resoldering 3 pairs of wires at the input terminals.
Good to read that your employing Synergistic Research (SR) cabling. Are you using a full loom? A Don Sachs pre-amp is highly regarded. I did not know that he was still in business?
You will have to educate me about full loom. I know hardly anything about interconnects! The Alphas are probably about twenty years old and I tried them based on a suggestion made by a C6 owner. I purchased one pair for the DAC/preamp and felt they made a slight improvement. I added a second pair between the preamp/amp and that definitely made an improvement. I think going all Alpha was the key versus different brands. My old interconnects were Cullen Cable.
As of three weeks ago, Don was in still in business because I have an email from him confirming my order. Great guy! He is knowledgeable, straight forward, and passionate. He patiently answered all of my questions and was willing to tell me what I might not want to hear. Our email string has covered a number of weeks and Don shared his take on speakers, solid state versus tubes, and DACs. I am looking forward to the arrival of the preamp because if it lifts a veil, I expect that will move me closer to a live presence.
I am retired and listening to a remastered Fleetwod Mac cd "Tusk" while I write this. Can't do this all day though as I have dead shrub to remove from the garden. Anyway, sounds pretty darn good! Very resolving cd that clearly sorts the vocals in the soundstage, which is extending outside the speakers. Wow! Good ambience. The solidness of the CS5i's comes though in spades!
@tomthiel ...Bi-wiring is not only feasible, but easily reversible if desired...
Hi Tom, Now you really have me thinking. I set one of the CS5i's on its side (laying it on a throw pillow so I had purchase to stand it back up again. Heavy buggers!)
It looks like I can access the existing speaker terminals by removing the plate that is held in place by the eight screws. Assuming that is correct, I should be able to see the wires coming to the existing terminal.
If I can sort the wires out, I should be able to separate the woofers from the rest of the drivers.
Without actually looking at it (not exactly ready for that yet), then there must be some way to repace the existing terminal with a "two way" terminal so that the woofers go to one terminal and the rest of the drivers to the second terminal.
Am I on the right track with all of this?
At that point, I could keep the DNA-500 for the bass drivers and utilize, say, a tube amp for the mids and highs, correct?
Just changed out Fleetwood Mac for Heart. Hearing vocal nuances I have never heard before. Sounds like the Sorekris DAC is an improvement!
@jafant
I am not familiar with AudioSpace CD player? Tell me more.
AudioSpace is a Hong Kong company owned by Peter Lau. I purchased his CD8 cd player in 2010 from Underwood Hifi. It had a Phillips drawer and Burr-Brown PCM 1732 chip. There were two output stages so you could listen via transistors or three 12AX7 tubes.
I used it as I moved through the Magnepan line to their 3.6's. I could never particularly tell a big difference between the transistor or tube output stages.
After I moved to Theil CS3.6's, and then to the CS5i's, I started to play with DACs and used the CD8 as a transport only. I tried the PS Audio PWT as a dedicated transport and it brought much more detail and resolution to the sound.
I listed the CD8 on Audiomart and was surprised when I had three different offers and sold it within a week. Probably let it go with too good a deal! The new owner said he loved it and was rolling tubes. Different strokes I guess.
Dsper- remove the screws and the xo slides out like a drawer. Unsolder all wires from the post lugs and find the drivers with a 6v lantern battery. Install a second pair of posts for the new input.
Mixing amps is treacherous. Gain and other characteristics must match and blend well. Can you conjure two volume controls?
Sure- a full loom of cabling means Interconnects (IC), Power Cords (PC) and Speaker Cable (SP). Additionally, one could use a Phono cable for turntable plus the various Digital cable(s) for DAC, Server and/or Streamer, in any system. Enjoy retirement and the Music!
Thank You, for the follow up on AudioSpace cd player. I do recall seeing that ad on U.S. AudioMart (USADM). Good to read that the spinner found the next home.
Well, the little Belles Hot rod is officially retired from my main system. I pulled the trigger on a Threshold s/500 series II. It’s been rebuilt/refreshed by Jon Soderberg a few months ago. Wow what a beast! For the first time in 20 years I am hearing what the 2.3s can really do. The Belles is a great amp for the money, but the Thiels really wake up with a heap of current.
My pleasure. There is plenty of time to explore Power Cords. 10 feet is a good measure for Speaker cables as well. Additionally, an upgraded Fuse is not a bad idea. it can only better the Aural experience.
@dsper, In regard to the fuse you were recommended, flip the fuse in the other direction and compare. Usually one direction/position of the fuse will sound noticeably better than the other. A simple step but folks have noted the difference. Some hear no different with trying better grade fuses. I do and apparently so does Pat at McCormack. Charles
I'll assume that you upgraded the Mains fuse with the Synergistic fuse , may I suggest that you replace the other 10 fuses with Bussman or Littlefuse ceramic fuses ( $2.00 @ ) . When working on my DNA-250 I replaced all the glass fuses with the Bussman fuses and noticed an improvement well worth the $22.00 . I purchased a Furutech fuse for the Mains ( 1/2 priced at $35.00 ) and compaired it to the Bussman , yes the Furutech sounded better BUT not that much better than a $2.00 Bussman .
Unsound - lots of room for optimism there. Bill was director of manufacturing at CJ while I was same at Thiel. Our companies shared lots of common ground. We'll get the SCD-1 tamed and go from there.
Its good to know others can hear a difference with fuses. Hopefully, you are not pulling my leg:-)!
I am a pretty analytical "my glass is half empty" kind of guy. My view was pretty negative that there could be a difference, but when Pat suggested changing out the mains fuse.....
Still not quite sure I should believe what I am hearing....
Then again, I was pretty convinced my thicker than lamp cord speaker wire was fine until I tried a thicker gauge...and I could hear that.
I assume that one's system has to be pretty resolving to hear any of this?
From my experiences I am continually surprised , a fuse ! a resistor ! speaker placement change by 1/4 inch ! speaker wire gauge ( I resently doubled mine ) ! room acoustics ! power cord ! wall outlet ! TUBE ROLLING !!
You have a great system so keep trying to fill your glass the fun never stops and the music just keeps getting better and better .
Hi @dsper, My suggestion to flip the fuse direction/orientation is a simple step and a number of listeners note that one direction is better sounding than the other. I'm sure you're aware that some consider upgrade fuses utter nonsense. So be it. I've have heard definite improvement with Synergistic Research fuses in my audio system. Charles
@tomthiel, though c-j never made any balanced gear, I would imagine that making balanced eq's would be fairly basic engineering for someone with Bill Thalmann's chops.
JA - change of plans. I got sticker shock for transport cost and risk and decided to deliver it to him when I visit my brother's family in Virginia within a few weeks. I'm taking a 3.5 EQ and schematics along too and pick each others' brains in general.
Good choice on not shipping the SCD-1. The original packaging is likely no longer suitable for shipping. The foam degrades with time and no longer can absorb the shocks in shipping.
I threw out my foam packing on the SCD-1 since it was crumbling. The unit will be with me until it no longer works.
My packed unit weighs 70#, which kicks in additional overweight charges. And the risk is high. And hand delivery sounds like fun since I'll be in the neighborhood.
Excellent! Thank You for the update. Post here if Bill offers a tour of his facility. I have a feeling that it is a magical place. Safe travels. Happy Listening!
I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this. Thiels are sometimes described as very lively speakers. I would characterize my 2.4s as sounding lively. Sometimes I wonder if they are too lively. That is I can't get the black background feel of other speakers. I have no discernible buzz, hum, noise or anything of the sort when music not played. But when music is played, the overall presentation is lively which gives the impression that the background is not black as in other speakers. Anyone notice the same?
Good to see you here again. What gear is currently in your system? To your ears, which brand(s) of speakers present with a Blacker background than Thiel Audio?
The ad describes these PX05's as specifically configured for Thiel 3.7's. I downloaded the manual for the PX05. I realize the intent of the PX05 is for use with Thiel subwoofers.
My question is: Would there be any benefit of these PX05's interfaced instead with a pair of NOn-Thiel SVS SB 16 Ultra subwoofers?
The rest of my existing system is:
Thiel CS 3.7's - left + right 5- Thiel PowerPoint 1.2's - center, surround, rear 4 - Thiel PowerPlane 1.2s - Atmos ceiling Anthem AVM-60 PrePro Conrad Johnson Premier 17 LS2 Stereo Preamp Conrad Johnson 350SA Amplifier Anthem A-5 amplifiers for surround + Atmos ceiling speakers.
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