This Sistrum stuff works

Sean, as TWL has written in his Sistrum statements he heard more music with lower distortion and at higher perceived volume levels. You do not increase level by dampening or killing off dynamics. Green only used some of the tools at his disposal. The Green rack sounded better when you did not clamp and kill dynamics by compressing equipment between shelves. And it sounded way better when you replaced all the steel rods and hardware with all brass. Because he had the tools does not mean he had the science to apply these in a correct method. Yes he did try to tune his speaker with a tensioning system bolt, but again one major mistake in his method was to have a point of exit[ the Audiopoint} on the bottom and his tensioning method on the vertical panels. These are conflicting applications and are counterproductive. The only thing he had done was to retune the speaker, again by varing the storage time of the unwanted nasties he was properly trying to evacuate thru the use of Audio points on the bottom. Sistrum I feel is now a science. If you use it as long as I have and thruout your entire system it will become easy to understand what it does and thus how it works. The mysticism will then be in the music and not in the product. Sistrum contribution to the music is that it does not dampen and therefore does not retune your music. Again Sistrum does this by providing a high speed path of stored resonance to ground. Sean, do your self a favor and try this stuff, it works. Tom

Tom, I agree, let the music be heard. But to be heard, I guess you got to let the music be heard. I see some do not agree with this novel idea.

Sean, I have not thrown a stone at you with any attempt to harm. An opinion means little to me if one has not heard the products one talks about. I cannot or will not attempt to compete with you with words. I have not the skill or the knowledge of the english language that you are so blessed with. If I were, I would probably post as often as you. I just can't compete with you in words. But I can more than hold my own with you with simple logic. My logic escapes you. Your's makes little since to me. I mean no harm my friend. Please never think of me as throwing stones at you. This is a cowards way. I would be the first to come to your aid if i saw stones being thrown at you. Let us put this topic to bed. And if you have anyone throwing stones at you, I have a sure fire slingshot that I will lown you or teach you how to use. i wish nothing but good will to you and those important to you. If you ever think i am throwing stones, they are nothing more than a small ,lightly packed, snowballs.

I may be wrong, but much to do about nothing seems to have generated when Sean interjected his post which, intended or not, suggested that the philosophy and/or design concept of Grand Prix racks was "scientific" as opposed to the "gimmickry and marketing" of "audiophile approved" racks. Since this thread dealt with Sistrum, there is no other way to interpret Sean's comments except to conclude that he felt that Sistrum racks lack scientific basis and are only audiophile approved, as if this were some kind of negative trait.

Though I've looked at the Grand Prix website before, I went there expecting to see something new in the way of specific technical data or scientific support for their products. Sadly, all I found was a mildly interesting definition of terms with a "white paper" link that was still under construction. I'm at a loss as to what technical data currently exists at the website that in any way supports any claim that they have to offer.

Since I found nothing there to support their position or of the specific test parameters that were referred to in the text, I have nothing tangible to offer on their claims. They may have supporting data - shake table test specs, duration periods, impulse amplitude, or XYZ parameters, but I found nothing.

In contrast, I have experienced Sistrum products in a controlled environment, my home. I've done listening evaluations that support the positive attributes that others have mentioned. I find the basic scientific premise behind Sistrum to be in agreement with my sonic experience.

I'm sure that Sean didn't intend for this thread to be sidetracked over inferences and suppositions. Barring any technical or experiential data suggesting otherwise, I'm at a bit of loss as to why he felt inclined to post as he did. However, I think he has made it clear that he has no personal experience to suggest that Sistrum's claims are untenable.

The most disturbing aspect so far has been the comments suggesting that personal experience is somehow too subjective to trust in any evaluation. This is audio, folks! Audio is subjective! Electronics can be objective within the limitations of the tests and test equipment that are available to date. However, the sonic "quality", perceived by the human ear, is the final test. To suggest otherwise is simply foolishness. If a comparison is not performed "side by side" so to speak, giving each item the best possibility to exhibit its sonic strengths (whether this may take hours or days or weeks), then how else is a comparison to be performed?

Preconceived ideas about a product can be useful I suppose. However, rarely do they benefit our sonic evaluations. We each look for certain aspects or attributes of a component to help with narrowing our focus to a manageable few for consideration.

Obviously, the specific triggers of interest can and will vary from person to person. It all depends on the "open mindedness" of the individual if he or she is able to set aside biases and give a product a fair evaluation before passing judgement.

Will one person's experience be true for all others? Of course, it won't. However, as more people come to share the same or similar experience and the experience level of the individuals of the group is considered, a greater measure of value may be assigned to the personal experiences as related to a particular product.

With this in mind, those on this thread who have experience with the Sistrum products and considering the level of the audiophile experience supporting such claims, I feel very safe in recommending the Sistrum products to those who might be in the market for racks and stands. Just one man's opinion.

I was not so much talking about the racks themselves, but the idealogies. Michael Green believes in "live" or "resonant" rather than "dead" or "damped". Your last response to me basically focuses on many of the same attributes that he seeks to achieve, but using different methods. He even allows one to "tune" his speakers so that the effect of box resonance can be added or reduced as one sees fit.

As far as that goes, are you trying to tune equipment and racks to become actual "musical instruments" and / or actual contributors to what we hear ? My thoughts were that the gear should be as neutral of a messenger as possible and neither add nor subtract energy from the recording being reproduced.

As far as i know, i thought that Steve McCormack was the "inventor" of component footers aka cones known as "Tiptoe's" and dampers known as "Soft Shoes". Are we talking about the same thing here ??? Sean
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Sean, I agree with your negative comments about the Michael Green clamp rack. Like all methods of dampening and so called isolation systems they serve to kill the dynamics and hence the music. There is only one parallel between the Green rack and the Sistrum rack and that is the Audiopoint. Green used the Audiopoint to collect and focuse resonant energy but then succeeded in dampening the exit of the noise . By having points at the bottom and a point at the top dampened by a shelf Green never allowed for the resonant energy to exit the device at all. As a result you had a system that was dark and dynamically depressed. You are totally incorrect in trying to say a MGD rack and a Sistrum rack are similar in any other way.. The Audiopoint is used in an entirely different method. Sistrum is a resonant energy transfer device it is not a music killing machine made of lead rubber or carbon fiber. Sistrum is designed to provide a high speed path for electromechanical as well as airborne resonance to exit the attached device. My daughter is quite a classical guitarist. I wonder how she would sound if she played a guitar with rubber and carbon fiber strings attached to a lead instead of rosewood body? Let the music be heard! Tom

Brent Riehl designed the original Audiopoint in 1989 not Michael Green. Green was a pretty boy front man smart enough to capitalize on a good concept when he could grab one. As TWL stated a company north of Detroit makes a try to be knockoff of the Sonoran cable, also a Brent Riehl design. Sistrum Platforms and The Science of Resonance Transfer a unique and controversial concept is also a Brent Riehl design. I suppose the fact that most people--------------- " have not gotten it" has protected Brent and Robert of Starsound from being ----- off again! As I understand it Brent and Robert are two of the principals of Starsound. Nelson Pass patented class A designs of the early 80's were borrowed by JVC and other Japanese companies. You have to have big money to protect your published ideas from becoming public domain so they do not become an unearned profit vehicle for the fasthanded.

Brulee: Why not discuss the matter in a logical manner ? I have presented my side of the how's & why's and all that you have done is throw stones. Can you not understand "any" of the logic or responses that i've posted to you here ? Sean
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Thanks Tireguy,Maybe a different sounding ring, but a welcome ring just the same.

Judit, I think we have come to an agreement. I agree, in fact my point has been as you said "I am only paying attention to what is going on between my ears". I don't think you can give a better answer. This may be viewed simplistic to those who rather blather on, and on, and on, and have all kinds of flimsey excuses or some pseudo intellect that serves no one. What i have quoted you on is all I was trying to say. Thanks for saying it so well with so few words. I reserve my time for those that like to write novels in a different forum. You know, things like books that take you somewhere than the big yawn.

I have listened to a system that used a Sistrum SP-5, the sistrum amp stands many many times and it was nice- how ever the owner of that system heard a very similar system to his with a rix rax hoodoo and well needless to say the sistrum was sold and his hoodoo should arrive in a week or so. He considered the Grand Prix but neither he nor I liked the design- between the lack of support on the rear of the shelf(it must flex??) and the some what gimmicky isolation and the simple fact that he didn't have a chance to listen to one. The Rix Rax have a great reputation and I am looking forward to hearing it- and comparing it to the old sistrum. I was always impressed with the look and simple function of the sistrum- I do see how many like it. How ever I have found an isolation device that puts all others to shame, not only functionally but aesthetically pleasing- I have hired some of the girls from my old job ;) to lay my gear on when I am listening(I use 2 for my amp-its pretty heavy- and a spare to change my disc upon request) you would be amazed how good it works, it turns out humans make a great dampening/isotation device.

Sean- Angela is alive and well(the last I talked with her- about 1-2 weeks ago) she had some things to take care of on the east coast and then back home to settle in- she was sick and busy with the move so I wanted to give her a little space- I am surprised she hasn't been posting by now. Speaking of posting again, I am glad to see Brulee's participation again- he was MIA for quite some time- weather you agree with him or not its nice to see one of the original members back. He keeps us on our toes its sort of like having a cornfedboy light(low in carbs. and just one calorie :) on hand.

Brulee- All I can say to you is- and this is just for old time sake- "trust me I am a tireguy".......well it just doesn't have the same ring to it :)

Brulee,

I will try to be more clear. What I understand technically about a piece of gear and what I experience during a listening session are Yin and Yang - two faces of the same thing. Neither one is truth on its own. Both are invaluable to me.

Warrenh,

I have never seen my own DNA, and when I am doing the audio thing, I am only paying attention to what is going on between my ears. Wish I could give you a better answer to your question.

Brulee: While Judith is a big girl and can answer for herself, i'll only add that i was adding a comment to this thread. I did not state that one product was superior to another or that one should buy one over the other. I did say that i found the info presented on the Grand Prix website to be interesting and that i thought it was worth reading.

As far as your "taste testing" question goes, one can form opinions / ideas about a product without ever really "tasting" it. How something looks, is presented, is reported on, etc... can all help to form an opinion of the product. That does not mean that such ideas are accurate or will be applicable to everyone's individual tastes or experiences. However, without those initial thoughts about various products, we would show no interest in anything. Something has to "catch our eye" or "turn our stomach" before wanting to check it out or avoid it. As such, we ALL form "opinions" or have "preconcieved notions" about products prior to experiencing them. Personally, i don't think it is wrong to discuss those "preconcieved ideas" or why / how one formed the opinions that they do about a product.

Twl: I have used Michael Green products in the past. At one point in time, i had his most expensive rack and invested in several different devices that he offered. I spent a lot of time on the phone with his "assistants" and a couple of hours talking to Michael personally. To be 100% honest, i could not get rid of that stuff fast enough. I also have to say that the person who purchased the rack from me was VERY happy with it. They post here on these forums and i respect their opinions. We simply had different opinions / experiences with the same identical product.

This is not to say that i find the Sistrum products directly comparable to what i had from MGD. They are built very differently and i'm sure that they perform very differently. I was commenting that i think that the two companies share common philosophies even though some of their products are very different.

Warren: There are several women that post / read these forums. Speaking of that, i wonder if anyone has heard from Angela after her relocation ? Sean
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Yes, Sean thank you. Michael Green "borrowed" the idea from Sistrum. Sistrum has the patents on it. Sistrum just did not want to disrupt the industry by making a big issue out of that. The same thing happened when a certain Canadian cable company "borrowed" the technology that Sonoran cables uses, and now this company has a very successful cable line.

I'm glad that everyone is cooling off here. I was getting worried that this thread might be side-tracked! :^)

Judit, I think you are missing my point. To make an opinion on what tastes best, shouldn't one take a taste first before declaring which is best? Or maybe one should look at the recipe without tasting and decide which tastes best. Have I missed your point? If so, please explain to this not so bright boy exactly what you are trying to tell me.
Sorry if i can't quite follow your logic. However, i am all ears to your point I missed. Not faulting your view, just don't quite understand it. Please do not feel that I am being disrespectful. I truly do not understand. To be objective, shouldn't one know what they are talking about? Shouldn't one have some experience to be objective?

Brulee: I am sorry if my post came across the wrong way. I was not trying to belittle the comments / experience that anyone has had with Sistrum products and stated such in the first sentence of my second post in this thread.

What i was trying to say was that i thought that the approach being taken by Grand Prix has a lot of merit in my eyes. They are actually taking measurements, performing tests, i.e. trying to understand why / how things work and why we hear what we hear. I do not believe that we have the knowledge to fully understand all of the things going on in any given device ( be it a rack, electronics, etc... ), but i do think that the more that we know, the better off we are. Like any other "science", data can be interpreted / misinterpreted. It is from trying / studying / making mistakes and applying ALL of that info that progress is made.

I also stated that i did not agree with everything that Grand Prix had to say. They too have their fair share of marketing and hype taking place. However, they have seasoned such marketing with at least a hint of real "technology". That is why i said what i did about "audiophile approved products". Many are strictly based on nothing less than snake oil. Personally, i would not use the shelves that Grand Prix provides with them, so we are probably in agreement at least on that subject.

As far as commenting without having experience, i have done that many times. This is a discussion forum and one need not have hands on experience to process logical thoughts about a subject and / or ask questions. Unfortunately, i think that a lot of things get lost in the translation due to lack of voice inflection, body language, etc... I try to be careful in how i word things, but misinterpretation is inevitable in some circumstances. That is why i have always encouraged those that don't understand something to ask / post questions.

As far as relying on those with personal experience using a product, this also has pitfalls. One does not know their past points of reference, their level of experience with other comparable products, how far they went in trying to optimize the performance of said unit, how long they actually used the unit,etc... For that matter, one can have have a unit for a month and only put a few few hours on it. How usefull / accurate do you think those comments would be ?

It takes both a skilled and knowledgable audiophile / writer to convey all of that information in an easy to follow manner. If you doubt this, take a look at Audio Review and read some of the reviews of any given product. Everyone has opinions and even those owning / using the same identical product can have VERY different points of view / experiences.

To take this one step further, if we resorted to people contributing information strictly based on products that they only have first hand experience with, there would be VERY little posted on these forums. Especially if one wants to narrow things down to using Brand X with Brand Y type scenarios. As such, i will continue to post in the manner that i have and i hope that others will share their points of view, even if we differ on perspective. That goes for you too. After all, i would want to know the highs and lows of any given product / plan of attack PRIOR to forking out the money or making the effort to try it. Contrasting points of view with some type of background as to why / how we have those opinions can only help those inquiring about such subjects.

Since i'm hoping that we are all adults capable of individual thought processes, being able to read various points of view and draw our own conclusions is part of life. Audio is no different as far as i can tell. As such, i try to pass on usefull info that i've found and / or experienced. Along with this, i include personal observations based on my own individual thought process. Whether or not one finds the links that i provide, my comments based on personal experience or simple thoughts thrown out to ponder useful, entertaining, repulsive, etc... is up to them. As such, caveat emptor ( let the buyer beware ). If you don't like what i'm selling ( or saying ), don't buy it.

Twl: I hope that you understood where i was coming from and did not take my comments as a personal attack. Your thoughts / comments on this product are quite interesting and i'm glad that you shared them. Personally, i find many of the comments / ideas found on the Star Points / Sistrum website to be similar in concept to that of Michael Green.

Judith: Thanks for understanding where i'm coming from, or at least trying to : )

As far as your comments regarding side by side comparisons go, i agree that they can be of limited use as neither item is fully optimized under most circumstances. This is not to say that the experience isn't usefull, but that the information garnered from such testing needs to be fully absorbed and digested in the proper manner. Sean
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BTW: to change the subject again: Are there any women on the 'gon? Please ladies, let us know. Is this just a guy thing? Cross dressers, transvestites, or wanabee women, do not count. Must have the DNA.

Let's all go to a retreat together and bond. Then get naked, get into a hot tub, smoke some doobies, and talk about audio heaven, while we listen to Inagoddadivida, by Iron Butterfly, through outdoor Bose speakers. That would be a good thing. Keith, you too, jump into the hot tub with us...peace guys, warren

We all need to carry a cushion so as to dampen the fall of each others ego. All of us here put much time and energy into this thing called hi-end audio. We also put much of ourselves into what we would like to be our own recreation of live sound. Our ways and means and personalities define the system we own. Its is our nature and our right to disagree. Some times reading other opinions that I differ with make wants me to scream down the digital highway "hey ya just don't get it do ya". I find it difficult to bite my own sarcastic tongue. I welcome a good read and the friendships I feel I have kindled on these forums. Tom

Ah - the correct metaphor. That is what you actually get with side by side comparisons - a taste. Sometimes a bitter disappointing taste, sometimes a glorious moment. However, it is mostly subjective, not objective truth.

Hi Judit, What ever works is all that matters. Please forgive me if i disagree with your side by side bake-off theory. How else would you know what tastes best?

At the risk of being pounced on, I think Sean's argument deserves some consideration. Technically oriented people generally are swayed by strong technical arguments. I have visited many websites where the information is not only useless, it is outright WRONG. A recent example - the claim that electrons in wires can travel at or faster than the speed of light. It is my expectation that Einstein, Bohr, Pauli, Oppenheimer, Fermi, and Compton are forging chains for these people to wear in the afterlife - with no hope of redemption.

I can easily understand Sean's pleasure in uncovering good, sensible technical information in a world of largely misleading hype, and I am glad for his input. I do not think that "listening" in a side by side bake-off is all that reliable information.

I love maturity. Good job, guys. My hat's off to you both.

ksales and Twl, Point taken. I never like to get into arguments with the Audiogon members. My remarks were rather harsh. Sean, I apologize for not being a bit more diplomatic. You have been an excellent source of information to many. I am very sorry if I have offended you.I just have a real problem when people make claims of a product that one has had no experience with.
please understand my point of view. I will also try to understand yours. Again, I am sorry for remarks that should not have been said in this thread. I still stand by what I have said. I made a mistake of of the way I worded my post. Please accept my apologies not for what I said, but for how I said them.

Ksales, agreed. Killing the messenger is not a good idea. It's the message that is the key thing. I'm quite used to taking flak though. I hope others have thick skins also.

Guys some times these threads sound like the crossfire spoof on SNL where the guy's response is "Jane you ignorant slut". Frankly I looked at the Grand Prix Audio site and there stuff looks cool and they do have some tech support for their stuff, but it sure looks like a whole lot of marketing. I mean formula car names for racks and other race car illusions are fairly typical male marketing ploys. Plus some of their science is not very strong. Lead shot is ok but the micro bearings used by starsound are a step beyond. I am not particularly a fan of glass shelves although many use em and find them ok. The sistrum stuff is like a tank; the metal shelves fixed in place with screw in an integrated system. While I really like the looks of the Grand Prix stuff their are several other mfgrs. who make a very similar product. At this point sistrum is somewhat unique, which doesn't mean its good. I agree that their website although improved needs more detailed info. I have encouraged them to do so and anyone interested in the products should email them and urge the posting of their scientific data for review. Also we should all consider a critique of statements made rather than the individual making them.

Sean, Once again it seems you have given an opinion on some scientific information that you have read than have experienced. Have you listened to a Neuance shelf compared to the Grand Prix? Have you ever listened to the Sistrum products? Have you ever even listened to a Grand Prix rack?
Or is this just some more of your opinions without any experience? Another useless piece of information without merit because you like a particular artical you have read? Why do you seem to talk about products that you have never listened to. You have become a product that has little value for me. I know you and many others think the world of yourself. I gain little knowledge from those who have to give an opinion when they have never heard a product. This seems to be something you offer too often with no experience of sound. You seem to offer this kind of useless advice too often. Stick with the technical stuff. I have heard the Grand Prix alongside the Neuance on a Mana shelf. When you have done the same, then maybe you will have a clue how useless this kind of information is. There is nothing more valuable than experience. Your information is as about useful as me giving advice on how to play chess. I love the game but how dare I give anyone advice on something I know little about. I know I am not going to make many friends with this post. But I am very tired of opinions without experience.

Not to detract from the information included in this thread or the experiences of others, i found the information and design process of the racks at Grand Prix Audio to be a steeped in actual "technology" and "science" rather than the gimmickry and marketing that most other "audiophile approved" products resort to. This is not to say that i believe or agree with all that they have to say, but that i found it be a very good read as to how / why they developed the product that they did. Try reading through their website and see what YOU think as an individual. If it makes sense, so be it. If it doesn't, read it again : ) Sean
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Dekay, that's cool! I never tried the Stephens drivers, but one thing is for sure, you will hear what the benefits of directly driving the speaker, with no crossovers, can do.
If you like the coherency, then you could move up in drivers if you want to. There is something about single drivers that is unlike anything else. If you get addicted to it, you'll be a nut case like I am, with all kinds of weird gear.

I'm not bullshitting anyone about these Audiopoints cones. They reduced the cabinet vibrations in my speakers and reduced the midbass colorations quite noticeably, and allowed me to play louder than before. That is more than I ever expected from a set of cones, so I think they are worth it. When I moved the cones under my TT, and put the Sistrum speaker platform under the speakers, those worked even better.

YMMV.

Tom:

I still find a decent rack to be needed. The differences between footers and shelf material seem even more pronounced with my current setup. Many of the items that were OK when used in the listening room are no longer used as they just do not sound right anymore.

I doubt if I will be able to budget any Sistrum speaker stands in the near future, but I might consider their floor spikes once I build floorstanding speakers for the living room (have not owned floorstanders since the late 70's, but they will be a nice change as I am tired of looking @ metal stands).

I ended up with a pair of Stephens Trusonic 8" full range drivers that I will be using in BR cabinets (don't think that they would work in TL's like yours).

Hey look. I thought my report was quite fair and balanced, without the usual hype associated. If that was not suitable, then maybe I'll just leave it between you guys and Stereophile.

You can sort it out with your own wallets.

Hmmm...

The APCD2'S geometrical design draws energy away from the tip of the Audio Point™ and transfers it to the surface the disc resides on. In most cases the APCD2 and Audio Point™ combination will provide more sound quality when used in unison. - A.P. website

Well, I bet no one has accused you of being most cases :), but Sistrum seems like a typical retailer.

"On your second point, you got me."

I just wanted to clarify before members jump out of their windows and head for Uhrichsville, Ohio 44683.

"Nobody can really try everything there is, so that has to be taken into account as well"

But zero - your point was better without that sentence, but your report was definitely better than nothing. Thanks for your reply. I'm glad they worked out for you.

We can go on and on, with this whole closet thing. I have done that too. I can tell you more about Sistrum rack placement in your room. But I will refrain because I know if I post this finding it will only stir up more antagonism. Try the product.... money back guarantee... call Robert he is extremely knowledgeable and is fun to talk to, if you don't believe him or he cannot answer your questions ask to speak to one of Starsounds engineers or even the chief designer. My final response is simply that these products are above and beyond any thing else out there.. They are so unique they deserve to be in their own special catogory. Tom

Dekay. I used the closet technique before, a long time ago. My current situation does not allow that. But I think the idea has merit.

However, some of the best improvements I got were with the platforms under the speakers. These improved the coloration problems I was getting from vibration in the cabinet, and this cannot be solved by putting the equipment in the closet. Also the closet does have airborne vibrations present, because the walls and closet door will vibrate when the music is playing. I agree that it is likely to be of a lower magnitude, and I see the logic in your approach. I think that using a Sistrum rack in the closet would be a good idea, to take care of the remaining vibrations that make it into the closet. Or you could use nothing. It doesn't matter to me, one way or the other. I just choose to have these things because I like what they did.

Ohlala, I didn't use the discs under the points, because after my conversation with Robert at StarSound, he said the points would work better without the discs. The discs are to protect the floors or equipment, and actually get in the way, a little. I didn't have to worry about my floor, so I didn't get the discs.

On your second point, you got me. I didn't have any other quality point or rack system that is available from a manufacturer. I only had my own DIY stuff, and I did use a couple of other cones like BDR. My recommendation comes from the fact that I liked what I got, and felt it was more than worth the money. Nobody can really try everything there is, so that has to be taken into account as well. These are just my impressions of these products in my system.

I respect Tom's opinions primarily because he understand this stuff better than I do. However in setting up my system I took great care to create a dedicated equipment closet. While it is next to my listening area and is accessed by doors from my listening room the doors are a heavy duty acoustical doors. Its unfortunate some of us get a little touchy on these threads, but such is human nature. I am sure everyone means well. This debate about equipment separation is ripe for a whole new thread. Tom's point is that the resonance created by nature is present in the separate listening area and in his view the total concept of the starsound stuff reduces these resonances or vibration. I obviously agree to a certain extent since I bought the gear. On the other hand I don't understand the physics enough to adequately weigh in. Personally I think it is helpful to isolate equipment and have always attempted to do so. I would say I was in a minority among high end enthusiasts in that most of the really good system I have heard place the equipment front and center. Frankly from a physics standpoint I don't know the answer. Someone else will have to address the issue.

Tom/Tweak:

Huh?

As you are either unable or unwilling to comprehend and/or to logically respond to the subject matter (content) of a post directed @ you, let's not chat anymore, OK?

People love your products, but how they also put up with the BS is beyond me.

Dekay,, To "get real" as you say is what it is all about. You infer there is no true form of isolation. Hey you are right! There is no true form of isolation. Every thing resonates and moves so why fight Mother Nature. Sistrum Science explains the principles of capture and release of electromechanical and airborne resonant energy, so why the conflict. If you use it there will be no conflict in your system. Everything will become perfectly clear, especially if you place Sistrum platforms under your speakers in a so-called---------- ( isolated listening room ) and your components on a Sistrum rack in a so called------------------------------ (isolated location ). Tom

Twl, have you thought about trying the coupling discs for the audiopoints? They're pretty nickel & dime compared your total, there :) (I actually have the discs, and your post has reminded me to get points for my electronics. They sounded better than thick carpet on hardwood floor for my speakers, but I don't think that says much here).

I couldn't heartily recommend anything without experiencing the like-priced competition. Is your praise for the platforms simply cost-benefit based on your total audio experience, or are there other platforms you have tried?

Tweak:

Of course anything in the listening room is exposed to airborne vibration. However the rest of the system (placed elsewhere) is not, to a much greater extent than if it were placed in the listening room and incorporated with anything that Sistrum produces. You need to get real and why are you even attempting to argue this point?

Draining airborne vibration once it effects a unit is far less productive than eliminating the airborne vibration in the first place (surprised that you have not figured this out, given 35 years to do so).

My speakers are wired with single runs of 26 gauge solid core wire which is contained in a very thick Teflon surround and the amount of energy transmitted back to the power amps is much, much, much less than they would receive if they (the amps) were instead situated in the listening room (common sense dictates that the difference is @ least 100 to 1 and it's probably considerably greater than this).

Again, I find it odd that one would go to the great expense of using special racks/shelving and then end up placing them in the listening environment.

Warren: In the dozen, or so, places that I have lived over the years there was a suitable closet (or adjoining room) in all but two of them (most rooms are located off hallways which contain closets and the next best thing is to use an in-room closet). I'm married, have had kids living in the home, etc., and as far as I am concerned most closets end up being filled with junk unless used for a better purpose. The hall closet was used for linens and a bit of my clothing which has since found better homes in a couple of bed chests and a shelf in my wife's clothing closet. We are planning on converting a living room closet to store LP's as 90% of it is also filled with junk. Power to the closet I use is supplied by my two power conditioners, though having a line installed would have cost much less tha the two inexpensive conditioners.

I am not dissing Sistrum products @ all, just the ridiculous claims which often accompany them, (guess Pogo was right afterall:-). I use Neuance shelving on a modified rack, so am not unaware of the basic pricipals, but instead am making the point that much better results can be had by placing such rack/shelf systems outside of the listening environment.

If you are attempting to address vibration then first do so (as much as is possible) at the source and then follow up treating the symtoms of what's left over.

Lak, thanks that's about as good an answer as I can ask for. I am just wondering if you have ever discussed the matter with Alan Kafton, as you guys seem to see eye to eye on so many other things.

As for you Warrenh, it was simple question. But that is what I have come to expect whenever I see your user name appear in a thread.

P.S.I think you may be drinking way too much coffee already.

I should know by now when to get away from a post. The warrening signs were there very early on.

Thanks for the informative post & review Twl. I was hoping to hear a bit more from Larry as I value his opinion as well.

Like I said up front I am from a different camp. Time to go back there. I don't think Jimmy Carter can bring the two sides together on this one. I guess there is nothing more to learn here.

Latter guys.

Maxgain,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. The wife's business computer is down and she's using my computer; therefore, I had to wait to get online.

I cannot give you a better answer than Twl's. I think using audio points and some of their other products (sticking with them and not breaking the link) seems to add to system synergy.

I'm not saying it's the best product out there, but I've tried several others and I prefer audio points.

I hope this is helpful to you.

Maxgain, Ouch! In the 80s I was doing time in Sing Sing, for bludgeoning to death, a nasty, insecure, audiophool. I got off for good behavior. They ruled, eventually, that it was justifiable homicide. You can email me where you live and we can have coffee.... peace, warren

Max, I was just trying to let you know that my floor is very similar to yours. And the Sistrum stuff worked for me in that type of application.

It seems things are getting sidetracked onto personality issues.

Great picture improvement!! Place your DVD and Pig Screen on Sistrum. Yea, I can see a noticeable difference..If the science is right then it will work under most everything. And I do ...Tom

Dekay, If you place your audio in another room your speaker cables are still attached to your speakers and your speakers are attaced to the floor, which may or not be on the same floor but are still modulating your system. Are your cables immune from airborne modulations? Are your speakers immune from the modulations they produce in the room they are placed in? Are your speaker cabinets immune from the sound pressure feed back from room boundaries? Do speakers and cables feed back signal upon themselves and the amplifier attached to them? I know this to be so.. And so the continuim progresses. I feel that Sistrum and Sonoran have take these truisms into account upon their creation. After 35 years of being an audio enthusiast I have never before been so fortunate as to have been exposed to a product or product line such as the Sistrum Science.. Like Twl said... this stuff works.. Tom

OK Warrenh. So what other products have you tried? I assume that you have owned all of the Bright Star products? The Seismic Sink? The Vibraplane? You oppinion must be based on something other than just what propaganda you read on the Star Audio web site. I just get a bit weary of you telling me over and over and over how wrong I am on this topic as you said your self "beating you(me)to death with this crap", oh sorry, make that rap. I would just like to establish that you have some shred of credability. I, on the other hand have been involved in experiments on this topic beginning in the mid eighties. What were you doing then Warrenh? I bet you were busy watching cartoons. Oh, but the TV was on cones!

Dekay,what do I do with the clothes in my closet? My closet is not wired with dedicated lines either. I could use my daughter's room, but that would mean speaker runs of 30 feet of unsightly garden hose. Pretty costly. Plus, my daughter might be a little pissed at this idea. I could use my paint and tool closet, but the smells in there, alone, might have a permanent stink effect on my system. This would be kind of like my dentist, who goes out of the office, when he zaps me with some x-rays. So when I'm listening in my easy chair, I take my remote control, open up my closet, or go into another room and zap my cdp, and then go back to my listening chair. Ooops, too loud. Back I go. I run enough miles a week. Dekay, you got something there. Good luck with it. My clothes are staying in my closet. peace and happy listening...warren

Warrenh:

Looks like you missed my post One only has to place the electronics in a closed room/closet (outside the listening area) in order to do away with most airborne vibration.

If I had to choose between a special rack/shelf system (which I already use) and placing the electronics outside of the listening area I would definately go with the latter.

As I do not have to choose I do both.

Anyway, it seems a bit odd (to me) to spend thousands of dollars on an isolation system for the electronics and then place them/it in the listening room.

To couple or decouple? That!, is the question; and never the twain shall (should) meet...warren

Warrenh, why do you try so hard to provoke me? I am just trying to get some answers from people that I think know something.