I actually bought my new sistrum rack WITH the brass rods pre-installed (small fee for this). I love my rack, i think its beautiful and the sound improvement is great. |
Wow! Almost two months has has gone by since the last post on this controversial , emotional and finally, I am so glad , humorous thread, originated by Twl. I am digging this original thread up because of a lazy man's implementation of a not so recent product update. I am the lazy man... Some three years ago I purchased what I believe was one of the first Sistrum racks. I had been using The Original Audio Points for many years prior to this purchase. Sistrum platforms followed and allowed me to hear further into my music. When the Sistrum rack first became available I felt from prior experience that this rack would be a major step over and above my Michael Green Clamp Rack. It was, and has recently become to my system, and ears much the better! The rack has tubes to which the shelves are attached. These stainless steel tubes are hollow with which in are placed threaded stainless steel inserts surrounded by steel Micro- Bearings. These functional materials I believe to be the conductive path to rid my system of the electro-mechanical pollution I now know is so detrimental to the audio and video experience. A couple years have passed with which in my system several updates have been implemented. Crossovers, cables and room accoustics all which are passive all of which are appreciated. Well I am not now so passive! Robert of Star Sound, maybe a year ago informed me of an update of what he described to be the center conductor of the Sistrum Rack. The steel inner conductors could be replaced with ones of brass. Me being some what lethargic and complacenent at times, new the better, and having heard prior improvements of brass over steel as an audio conductor simply blew the swap out as to much trouble. Skip three years ahead to the recent. This past Sunday after mom and mom went home from their day with us. I began the replacement of the steel conductor with ones of brass. Damm I suppose I needed some relief from the large family tribe. Some three hours latter I succeeded in the transfer replacement of the center conductors. 3 am ,I was still up and listening maybe in a haze but one of glorious 2 channel envelopement. Now a few days down the road my euphoric audiogasim has not subsided. The brass innner conductors has brought the music to me! All the old is also the new! Tube texture, with solid state speed and authority! Soundstage never lacking and always large became tactile! Specific yes. Faces of artists you always wanted to see! Yes! Only wish I had replaced the steel with the brass a year ago! Tom |
There is hope!
This is proof of what a *friendly* reminder that not everything is audio can do... |
Those appear to be direct coupled devices that transfer the textural feel of the visual reality rather than the overdamped silicone type that mask and compensate for thinness and lack of body. |
Well I wasn't wowed by the audio racks, but the other pix on that site were pretty awesome! |
Hmm, this looks like a Sistrum:
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=1769 |
Reading comprehension problems, once more... 1) I have not "railed" against the Sistrum: This is not to say that the Systrum is not a step in the right direction. It is a step in the right direction. Whether it's worth the money is another story. Can I make something better looking and better performing for less? Ask a psychic!
I think the Sistrum does one thing right and that is an advantage over an attempt at doing several and not a single one right. I still do not know how much it costs, so that bias has not been introduced in my brain... 2) I have posted that floor standing racks are not practical in my new place: In the dedicated listening room I'm about to set up, any floor standing rack is out of the question, BTW. 3) Jahaira's rack is not based on IKEA Lack tables--you go back and read again. 4) Now that you asked, Leftie, I will say that the Systrum has a very strong marketing component behind it, indeed. It caters to people like Lak—it suits his system, most definitely. It would look really corny with my rig. It would not be able to properly support my two Clear Image T4 transformer based filter arrays nor my modded 1200 TT and would be a waste of money, using single ‘shelves’ for all the outboard power supplies I have and little Channel Islands DAC I use. People like me have lots of stuff--big and small--lying around… |
True, threads are not owned. They take on a life of their own, sometimes, owing nothing to the original. That's the problem, for me, when it's "my" original post. I love the Sistrum products, and I base my comments on actual listening experiences. There are those who rail on, adnauseam, from nothing other than the theoretical. The ole tympanics are the test. I have yet to hear experiences, from other audiophools, where the Sistrum products were returned because they did not deliver. Let's put this baby to bed. I am...peace, warren |
Psychicanimal - try the product or start a new thread on the benefits of Ikea-based, brazilian wood racks. Unless you try it, your comments railing against the Sistrum product are theoretically-based, and dont reflect what MY ears hear. I really like it. I'm sure there are other solutions, but I REALLY like this one.
Say whatever you like, unless you try it, you'll never, ever know and might as well be recommending electrostatic speakers over dynamic speakers based on their specs alone...and I'm sure you were as amazed as I was when I heard just how different they are. Try it, try it, try it... |
It would have been beneficial to just ask sistrum for their technical explanation, post the exp. here, and analyze it. At least you'd be on the same page, ummm, or closer to the same page. But I get the drift that you all maybe a little too tired for that now. Nice back-and-forth, it has been interesting.
With all due respect, Twl, starting this thread doesn't make it your thread. |
TWL, I posted why I came in here: Lak asked me to check out the Sistrum and also to call the owner. I told him calling him would be pointless, as I would be bombarded with useful information interspersed by a sales pitch. I think the Sistrum does one thing right and that is an advantage over an attempt at doing several and not a single one right. I still do not know how much it costs, so that bias has not been introduced in my brain...
I told Lak that I think he would be better off with Jahaira's design. I find it way superior and more flexible in terms of how to address individual components. With this design one can choose to couple, decouple or use *resistive damping* of individual components. The rack is coupled by means of heavy stainless steel rods with spikes and bolted Brazilian Cedar plywood boards (12 ply) that have a routered rectangular cavity. It is a heavy rack and extremely rigid by all means. The combination of granite slabs, cork/rubber sheets and cones/DIYumas and or Moca wood will allow each individual component to be properly tuned. You could even use Neuance shelves, graphite boards, anything!
Warren, I had to look up that phrenology word. No, my grandmothers did not know that. I learned a few things related to metaphysics and the use of quartz crystals, and Central American Indian "reiki". Never messed with the bad stuff...don't want to go to hell! A lot of this stuff has to do with how we are in tune with ourselves and the environment. An analogy would be that our lives develop a *vector* in the metaphysical realm, much like what the Hindus call Karma; that vector gives our lives a momentum that is sometimes not good. That's why some people go to Psychics like my friend Milvia. I have this very very clear. Milvia's mother told me one day: "We pull them out of the cesspool and they jump right back in..." |
Starsound Technologies will refund your money if you're not happy with their products. Infact they give you 30 days to find your happiness. Whattaya got to lose? Shipping? Small piece of change, given the cost over 30 days listening. The Sistrum Systems have delivered. I'm coupled to the EARTH, and very happy. peace, warren
P.S. Let's see: The original thread started in January. Will it be too long, come July? It's too long already. Just listen to these ( Sistrum) babies. You'll be freed.... |
Gentlemen I feel I have tried to answer your inquiries as accurately as possible and with all of my personal integrity. I have stated many times before that I have used Audiopoints and Sistrum for almost ten years. It is and will continue to be my personal felling that these are the finest products available in there respective catogory. The controversy I feel can be answered by going to the Starsound web page and read the science presented for yourselves. Let me state that the Sistrum and the Audiopoint are two different devices. The Audiopoint is only a minor part of the actual device know as the Sistrum. I suppose the explanation is beyond my ability to geometrically as well as verbally articulate. Like I said I believe in and can demonstrate in my own personal system what I feel are huge sonic improvements with the use of Sistrum Science. My sincere apologies for trying to describe and failing to deliver the full 100% scope of the engineering behind these complex shapes..Tom |
TWL: My ONLY reason to be spending my time on this thread is because I'm interested in purchasing a rack better than the one I already have. In order to not throw one's audio dollars away on a rack which yields little or no improvement, or possibly is WORSE than what one already has, some research into the new products available in the marketplace must take place. These forums CAN be valuable, because objective opinions from helpful fellow Agoners can usually be distilled from the gang fighting and grudge matches taking place alongside them. If a member chooses to tackle complex technical issues, that's fine. He, or she, may or may not be qualified to make the statements that they do. But if they do make a technical statement- they should have the courage to defend their contentions in the face of logical, in fact in this case- obvious, arguments against their initial position. Most importantly-after it's all said and done- I will decide if, possibly, any constructive information was forthcoming. This information, if any, will be used as the 1st step in gathering technical data- not the last and definitive decision making device. In regard to contacting the manufacurer with ones questions- I agree that that can be productive, but only when armed with some amount of general, current, product knowledge. Otherwise you risk repeating the disturbing exercise of going to a car dealer for the 1st time to purchase your 1st car. Stated another way- If you have a SOME general product knowledge you will be better qualified to divine some reliable information when you ask the Ford dealer how his Explorer compares to Chevy's Tahoe. |
Psychicanimal, does your grandmother have any experience with phrenology? I'm a coupler. Some of you are decouplers. Sistrum: we know where they stand. Mixing the two, however, is kind of like buying beauiful leather furniture, and putting plastic slip covers over them. One nullifies the inherent characteristics of the other. If you're a coupler: stay true to that, and get rid of your absorbing, ruinous, little, resonance blockers. If you're a decoupler? Hey, I don't care where you go. Have fun though. peace, warren |
Fransisco and FBhifi, if you want explanations of the technical performance of this product, why don't you contact the manufacturer and ask them? Attempting to draw conclusions of the performance of this product, based upon others' ability(or inability) to describe it, is nothing. If you don't like the idea or don't want to buy it, then don't. Attempting to create strife here by needling people about some complex scientific issue is not productive. If you really want to know, then call the people who know. If you don't do that, then I can only conclude that you have some underlying agenda at play, and I don't want that in MY thread. |
Audiotweak: I guess if you are a person that believes that science can explain everything and man knows all that there is to know, life becomes a lot simpler. You don't have to worry about any new discoveries or scientific breakthroughs ever popping up. As such, the Earth is flat. On top of that, the Earth is the center of the universe. As we all know, these statements were all taught as "fact" at some point in time. I'm sure that "scientists" back then used the same logic when making such statements i.e. "we've known this to be true for hundreds of years"....
Thank God for those that take the time to experiment, march to the beat of a different drummer and have ideas that fly in the face of convention. Life would be pretty boring living in caves and grunting to communicate.
Personally, i think that man knows just enough to be dangerous, both to himself and the planet. Only time will tell if i'm wrong or right. Sean
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Theaudiotweak: In an effort to keep this thread constructive, informative and focused on audio related issues- not personal- would you kindly comment on my 3/17 question to you. I will take the lack of any comment from you to be a concession that the contradiction I point out is irrefutable. |
Audiotweak, you're the one who has contradicted himself: "The geometry of the Audiopoint was designed as follows: The flat surface and or the shaft are collection areas. The tip is the exit point. The point was designed to be an exit point only, it is not a re entry point. The tip of the point is therefor a coupling point. This one way in, one way out purposeful design makes the Audiopoint the..."
"The Audiopoint in this application is only effective when mounted to the Sistrum shelf. It works like mechanical amplifier/megaphone, when mounted to the much larger Sistrum shelf.. If the point where mounted upside down directly to a much larger mass such as Earth the Audiopoint would be rendered totally ineffecvtive. Tom" ******* I did try some of Lak's Audiopoints, as posted earlier. They work. How much and if cost effective, I have to use them in house for a while... ******* I do have a Psychic friend of mine back in the Caribbean. Her name is Milvia (aka Mystic Lady). She's really good with magnets, crystals, Chinese metaphysics and reading the SanterÃa cards. I learned quite a bit from her. I'm sure you could send her some Audiopoints and she would *align them* for a fee... Guess what, my mother is even a better Psychic--she's an herbalist and reads Spanish cards... |
Only Voodoo to those who see earth and physical science as such. The same laws apply today as those of 400 years ago. It is all in your physics books of yorn. Wake up and actually turn the page, butt read it first. The science is there in the product.. If you do not believe it and you did not try it, well I guess ya missed out!.. Tom... PS coupling and dampening in combo are counter productive. |
I posted quite a bit about energy transfer and cone points over in AA about two years ago. Jonathan Scull compiled some of these posts and assembled parts of them into what became the majority of his February 2001 "Fine Tunes" column. Bare in mind that much of what i wrote was based on "logic" and "common sense" / "hands on experience" as i am not a physicist. So as not to confuse anyone out there, i don't play a physicist on tv either : )
Having said that, those that do understand physics have informed me that mechanical energy that can be passed from one device in one direction can in turn be fed back in the reverse direction. While i do not doubt this as the two points are obviously in contact with each other, i have to question if the level of energy transfer occurs at the same rate in both directions ? My thoughts are that a cone does act as somewhat of a "mechanical diode" ( a "diode" is an electronic version of a "one way valve" ) and the effectiveness of the "diode action" will depend on the shape, materials used and the mass of the devices. That is why there are SO many variations on cone shape, size, material, etc... and why some seem to work better than others in specific situations. I've never seen any studies on this subject but would love to. If anyone knows of any, please turn us onto them.
I am also of the belief that one can't "survive" or "fine tune" an audio system optimally by using one specific method ( isolation, coupling, mass loading, absorption, etc...) by itself. In my experience, some components respond to a combination of the above, whereas others might work best using only one method. Obviously, this will vary with the specific type of support structure / rack / shelf being used. What i found to work best with one type of rack failed miserably with another type of rack. One would only know this though if they had actually tried several different racks and tried various tweaks on each of those racks. I did this very thing and could not believe some of the differences that i heard in the process.
Personally, if i could, i would build an open structured rack(s) out of wood using as little metal as possible in the actual construction of the rack. I think that this type of rack sounds best. Obviously, one could play around with various types of wood used, how the shelves were suspended or anchored, etc... Personally, i do NOT like having the shelves anchored and / or part of the support structure of the rack. What someone else prefers from a structural vantage point or sonic preference might be very different though.
Having said that, i don't have all wooden racks as i could not achieve the versatility that i was looking for in such a design. As such, i had to deal with the fact that what i wanted would compromise the sonics to some degree. Such is life. With that in mind, I took an existing design ( Premier ) and manipulated it to fit my needs / desires as best possible. I did this because i could not find any commercial design that met all of the criteria that i set forth when shopping for racks. With the help of a few knowledgeable folks, i arrived at something that is both versatile enough to keep me happy AND is suitable to my sonic preferences. I am still experimenting and learning, but that is the great part about "tweaking" i.e. you can do as much or as little as you desire or can afford.
With that in mind, i hope that i have not discouraged anyone from buying / trying ANY product that interests them. Obviously, this includes the Sistrum's or other similar products. Learning via first hand experience is a great thing and taking the desire away from someone to do so is disgraceful. As such, i apologize and would like to encourage all of you to experiment with as many variables as you can within your system(s)and come to your own conclusions about what works best. If you end up thinking i'm a quack regarding some of my suggestions / comments, so be it. You'll never know what you like best until you try things out for yourself though.
Once again, i do apologize to those that i've offended / stepped on their toes in this thread. Sean
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Fbhifi, you need to understand Voodoo magic. If you use the point down it is a "one way drain". Flip it and it becomes a "megaphone"... |
Theaudiotweak- You state that "The point was designed to be an exit point only, it is not a re entry point." How then can it function as a re-entry point when attached to the shelf on the Sistrum rack ? It appears that it is not actually a "... one way in, one way out purposeful design..." How do you explain this obvious contradiction ? |
Fbhifi you are correct. The points on a Sistrum rack are with the point side up, facing the bottom of the equipment. The point itself is is directly coupled to a much larger tuned Sistrum collection device, namely the shelf. The shelf if it where simply a solid rectangular piece of metal, wood or resin would not act as a resonance collection device. Shelves as discribed would act much like any other branded shelf namely to dampen and store. The Audiopoint in this application is only effective when mounted to the Sistrum shelf. It works like mechanical amplifier/megaphone, when mounted to the much larger Sistrum shelf.. If the point where mounted upside down directly to a much larger mass such as Earth the Audiopoint would be rendered totally ineffecvtive. Tom |
Hey, I've got to laugh at myself. These threads on are so damn long, that I said just about the same thing 6 weeks ago, thinking it was a different thread. Got's to laugh. It's a beautiful day here. carpe diem my fellow audiophools. warren |
I'm confused about something. Tom's most recent comments about the flat side of the Audiopoint being the collection area and the point being the exit point- is consistent w/ my long term understanding of energy transfer. What I don't get is that the Audiopoints used on the shelves are pointed UP TOWARDS THE COMPONENT. This would suggest that these Audiopoints are directing energies INTO not OUT OF the components !! Can someone clarify this apparent inconsistantcy. |
My comments are based on a lot of hours using many types and combinations of isolating damping materials and devices in several setups (the result of a nomadic lifestyle). They are not theoretical. My experience is such that Lak asked me to check things out for him regarding this particular rack. I would never care about an expensive rack, especially after seeing Jahaira's rack in action. If this guy that makes the Sistrum had a treasure he would have marketed his concepts to the global industrial/laboratory sector and would be making far more money. It's only logical. Sorry, but I can't separate myself from being a professional scientist, a psychic and an animal... Now check this out: The point was designed to be an exit point only, it is not a re entry point. The tip of the point is therefor a coupling point. This one way in, one way out purposeful design makes the Audiopoint the most efficient coupling device on the market. Is this original thinking or paraphrased copywriting? My Goldmund cones' literature say something very similar: the body being of steel, straight at first and then funnelling and the tip made of a different material (HSS) to drain vibrations in one direction even faster, blah, blah, blah..." This is simply a thermodynamic impossibility. This is not to say that the Systrum is not a step in the right direction. It is a step in the right direction. Whether it's worth the money is another story. Can I make something better looking and better performing for less? Ask a psychic! In the dedicated listening room I'm about to set up, any floor standing rack is out of the question, BTW. As for Lak, hell, he only uses 5 Watts...he doesn't pop up the volume like I do!!! |
I just posted this on another thread, so at the expense of being redundant, here goes: To couple or decouple? That is the question. Isolation? Not, nearly, possible. Airborne resonances cannot be isolated, and the very things you're using to decouple will keep those microphonous evil nasties flittering around, in your system. Coupling is the way to go, and Sistrum does it better than anyone, because they not only have an excellent product, they keep the principle of coupling "isolated" from decoupling. You don't mix the two--not, if you're trying to achieve a clear highway to the good ole earth, for those resonaces to go. peace, warren |
Audiopoints attached to the bottom of the support rods are singular directional transfer devices. In no way are bi-directional devices a positive in this design type. The geometry of the Audiopoint was designed as follows: The flat surface and or the shaft are collection areas. The tip is the exit point. The point was designed to be an exit point only, it is not a re entry point. The tip of the point is therefor a coupling point. This one way in, one way out purposeful design makes the Audiopoint the most efficient coupling device on the market.You do not want to de-couple you want to couple. You want to capture extraneous resonant energy and not store or dampen it. You want to capture extraneous and resonant energy and have it exit as quickly as possible. These devices are a kin to a heat sink or polarized capacitor. The previous have a defined entry area and a defined exit point. So do the Audiopoint and Sistrum devices. Tom |
Your comments are all academic, or should I say "psychic"? :) All are good, but, despite your thoughts, you still haven't tried it. Its like commenting on the handling ability of Austin Martin - if you haven't driven one, you wouldn't know except by making educated guesses from pictures and stat sheets. You might be surprised how well a 120398123098 ton vehicle handles! :)
I own a Sistrum rack. I posted my experience, which IS informative, based on real life experience, and maybe someone else out in the community will find it reassuring to hear my story, especially when Sistrum racks aren't easily found at my local dealers. I heard the difference immediately, and I'd put my ears up against a calculus or engineering book anyday. I'd recommend others try it. I haven't heard the rack you've discussed, but I'm sure its got its good qualities, besides just price, too! Heck, I would love a rack with a beautiful wood-finished look, rather than this modern time machine contraption in my living room...
The proof is in the pudding. Get the rack for a 30-day test run and try it yourself. Post your results, and return the rack if you dont like it. |
The stones used as vibration sumps work in both directions, Tom: from the earth/building to the component and from the component to the sump. Exactly that is what's so wonderful about Jahaira's rack: The granite slabs are floating on the EVA/cork pads and are not a structural component of the rack. José's design humilliates that $4,000 granite rack people here go crazy bidding for and it cost only a tiny fraction of that outrageous selling price...
As for the Moca wood, it is an awesome sump. Its effects are nothing short of stunning at absorbing and dissipating vibration. The resulting sonic effect is breathtaking.
Call me now for your free reading!!! |
Earth is the largest of sumps that humans have available to them. This is where I placed my Sistrum Sp6 and my Sistrum Sp101 platforms for my Harmonic Precision Mono Amps. Tom |
Is there any useful information here? Looks to me like the typical Audiogon circus act where someone posts a good issue and it then gets flooded with collateral opinions, haymaker punch attacks and experiences which are tried to be presented as validated scientific experiments. And all this is supposedly *moderated*...
Lak talked with me this week and asked me to check out the Sistrum stuff and give him my opinion.
I have used the Audiopoints on one of my T4 filters and saw Lak's amplifier stands, which gives me a pretty good idea of what the designer is aiming for. What I told Lak I will tell you: I think I would do better using my approach of light IKEA "Lack" tables (per Ken Lyon's DIY recipe) and Caribbean Moca wood boards with appropriate cones (I use Goldmund) or going Jahaira's route. Jahaira's got this stainless steel rod based DIY rack. Routered 12-ply Brazilian Cedar shelves compose the structural part of the rack. He then uses granite slabs resting on cork and EVA foam pads. He also uses his DIY version of the Darumas (DIYumas, he calls them). The problem I see with the Sistrum is that although it is light and rigid with vibration drains, it lacks a vibration sump, unlike the two DIY designs I've described. Vibration has to go to some sort of sump, IMO. If you ever get a chance to look at vibration sensitive equipment in industrial/laboratory setups, you will find big stones used as vibration sumps. Enough said.
Also, the Sistrum guy offered to sell Lak some brass Audiopoint feet for his Salamander rack. I told him brass is too soft. My Goldmund cones bave high speed steel points and they still get dull. I have purchased four Polycrystal cones to make the base feet of my DIY rack. Polycrystal is super hard and will be able to bear the load.
Once again...
With psychic power and primal intensity, |
I recently bought a specially upgraded SP-7, with seven shelves and special brass rods, and I can testify to the quality of the product, the customer service of the folks at the company, and sonic improvements. I must have over 300lbs of gear on it, and it holds rock solid. It looks great, too. I think the hardest part of using this rack is positioning 150lb components on the sharp, upward facing Audiopoints. It took a little time to assemble, but its about the same effort as Ikea furniture.
However, this thing is wonderful. It did make improvements to all my components. At first I had a SP-6, and had my turntable on small standesign rack with Relaxa's magnetic floation isolation device underneath the turntable. Then I received the 7th shelf and put the turntable on top...wow. Its that simple. I echo TWL's comments - its not going to propel a pioneer receiver into a BAT50SE, but it will help you maximize the performance of your components. |
Sistrum is great- am using the amp and speaker stands, but waiting for a year or two on the rack, as I hear they may take it to the next level with a version that actuallly plugs in to the wall! Apparently, it will be significantly better then even the already superb current Sistrum multi-shelf platforms (SP-4; SP-5; SP-6, etc.) many of you are now using... |
Okay, what I'm saying is that there is some sonic improvement to be had from this brand of platforms and points. How much is dependent on your system. Anytime a rack or support can offer sonic improvements, instead of just being a shelf, is a bonus in my book. It is not going to magically transform your equipment into state of the art stuff. It will help take care of whatever vibration problems you may have had in your system, and will improve the sound to that extent. The worst thing that can happen to a product in this industry is to be over-hyped, because then everyone is let down even if the product does a good job, because everybody expected too much. This is a good design and will do its job well. It's not going to turn an NAD reciever into a Boulder amplifier. |
I love their stuff. The price isn't terrible. I don't if it is better than sliced bread but it is good quality gear. |
OK, I'm genuinely interested and may take the plunge. But, I enter with eyes wide open, and won't be shocked if I end up on an episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit: "Audiophiles and Their Tweaks". |
I think we've beat this thread to death. Let's put it to bed, boys. There's more audiomania out there. Let's find it, and look out for each other...peace, warren |
Don't worry Brulee. I don't mind. Discussion is what it is all about, and people don't have to agree. God knows I disagree with a hell of alot of stuff that is said on these forum pages. And I'm pretty vocal about it too. I think most people know that if the statements are made with a helpful intent, then there is no problem. |
Sean, thanks so much for this invalueable information which serves you well. I think you are also partially wrong. Your anology escapes me. Not throwing stones. No need to worry, I will no longer respond to this thread.
Twl, i apologize if i have taken your excellent thread and have been the cause of more trouble than help. I am finding it very hard not to throw more of those softly packed snowballs. Again Twl, I hope you will accept my apology. |
Thank you, Tom and Twl, for your responses. Twl, I actually sold the LP-12 that I was trying to use in the bouncy living room. It was not on the Sistrum but rather on a Salamander Synergy doublewide stand. I just wasn't using the TT in that room, for the reasons you noted. My second (and now my only) LP-12 is downstairs in my big listening/music room, on the Sistrum stand, and down there, on a cement floor that is the ground floor of my townhouse, there is absolutely no bouncing or problem when the dog flops down or I stand up, etc. I never tried the Sistrum in the living room, since that isn't my main listening room. Thanks for pointing out what the Trampolin upgrade looks like on my TT. It definitely has a metal plate on the bottom, I don't see any wooden corner braces or anything like Tom describes. And yes, to me the Linn sounds better on the Sistrum than when I set it on a nearby table, on its rubber feet w/the suspension engaged. I just wanted to verify if I was bypassing the Trampolin or not.
I was sad to part with my other LP-12, since it was my original one and I had owned it for many years. But two TTs seemed excessive in a townhouse inhabited by one person! And the guy that bought it (a local) absolutely loved it, so I know it went to a good home. He even bought the van den Hul cartridge I had on it, he didn't want to change the sound at all. |
Theaudiotweak, I read your post, and it makes sense. But Sarah is using the Trampolin under her TT, and it is a large metal plate that's under the TT, with spring feet. I feel in her case that defeating the spring feet on the Trampolin, and grounging the resonances through the Sistrum stand is a good idea. That is, assuming that it sounds better to her, of course. |
Twl I guess I jumped into a question directed at you . Sorry about that.. Tom |
Sarah. I personally think that you are doing the right thing, because it is generally thought that the Trampolin is not a good upgrade to the Linn.
I read some of your other posts, where you have mentioned the difficulties you had with the LP12 in your room, due to the "bouncing" it has. I had the same thing. I am assuming that the Sistrum stand has eliminated/reduced this problem for you. I think that the Sistrum stand would be one of the best stands for your application, due to the nature of its design, and it's low weight. It has good point contact to the bottom of the metal plate, and should help immensely in reducing the vibrations there.
Have you found that it has improved things for you?
And I do know that you and Judit are girls, and as a guy, girls are my favorite kind of people. And I also have a nice dog as a listening partner. :^) |
Hi Sc53, I also have a Linn Lp12 and a standard Sistrum Sp 6 rack. What I have found to be most effective for me is as follows. .If you remove the masonite bottom plate you will see 4 corner braces. For the Lp12 to sit on the three Sistrum points you have to make a center rear support. I used marine plywood and glued this into a groove that is around the entire perimeter of the Linn. I used this groove because this is where the corner supports reside as well. You have to make your extra rear support as wide and as deep as a Starsound apcd disc. So from the bottom up you have a shelf a point a apcd disc and then the Linn which has three braces now residing on the discs. This technique does not interfere with the Linn Lp12 suspension.. Tom |
Twl: Sorry for sidetracking your thread. This was not my intention. I only intended to introduce another product of similar pedigree into the conversation. Some of my "generic" comments were misinterpreted as being specific and for that i apologize.
Brulee: I understand exactly what you are saying. In effect, you believe that only sonics matter, the ear is the final judge and personal hands-on evaluation "rules". I think that this is "partially" wrong and here's why:
It's kind of like buying a highly recommended car that only goes 70 MPH. You initially don't know about the limited speed and even if you did, you might not see this as a problem because that is as fast or faster as you normally drive. Other end users that recommended the product may not have ever pushed the envelope to find out exactly what the product was capable of. As far as they are concerned, it always worked fine for them so they are happy and recommend the product.
One would only recognize this as a flaw once they tried to exceed the level of performance that they now can't achieve. If they would have read the specs and done the math, they would have known about the limitations involved in such a design. Even if one can't do the math, there are those that can and could have helped prior to finding out the hard way.
Audiotweak: I did not use the MGD rack as a clamp-rack although i could have. It was the same basic rack ( Deluxe Adjustarack ) but not set up to clamp. It still suffered from the darkness and compressed dynamics that you mention. I attribute this to the massive amount of weight / energy storage of each individual shelf.
General public: As to the Grand Prix rack, my thoughts are that the company actually took time to measure, look at the results and refine a product using comparative evaluations performed in a scientific manner. I was not aware that such a product even existed until it was pointed out to me and I wanted to share this information and product just as someone else had shared it with me.
Although all of the design / research test curves might not be posted, some of the figures that were derived during testing were posted. They obviously have the means to do such testing and understand the results given their background. The rack is more "involved" than any other design i've seen, although i will agree, simpler IS sometimes better. Their design deals with resonance transfer, damping, absorption, etc... As far as i can tell, it does this all at the same time and seeks to do so with great efficiency. As i mentioned to Ken Lyon though, i think that the shelves are the weak point of the design and probably need to be changed for best results.
Other than that, buy and use what you want. I've never suggested anything less than that in any of my posts. I say this even though i may have negative personal opinions about a product and shared them. We all have different tastes, goals and ways of thinking about things. One has to do what they think best fills their needs.
That is what i did and why i don't have a rack that is a commercially available product. I can't say that it is better than everything ( or anything ) else out there, but i can say that it suits my personal needs better than anything else that i've tried. I think that is what Twl was trying to say and i'm glad that he ( and obviously, more than a few others ) are happy with their purchases and took the time to share their results and findings.
I'll shut up now and hope you can understand where i'm coming from. Sean
> |
Hi Twl, I have kept reading this thread because I own and love Sistrum products myself (like Warren, I use speaker stands, mine under my Genesis 500 floorstanders, and a 5-shelf rack for my components). I am not a scientist and speak only from my limited experience with various racks, shelves, points, cones and mats in my system over the years I have been listening to music and trying and buying gear. I have a question for you Twl: I have placed my LP-12 on the top shelf of my Sistrum rack, with Audiopoints lined up to rest evenly on three places on the metal bottom of the table. I have thus bypassed the rubber feet that engage the suspension system. I like the way the TT sounds, but wonder if you have an opinion on whether placing my Linn on the Audiopoints like this is a good idea? I have read elsewhere and certainly from Linn that the TT should just rest on its rubber feet. My Linn has the Trampolin base and Cirkus, by the way.
Also, thank you for your thoughtful review of what you heard when you installed the Sistrum stuff. I always value hearing what others thought when they listened to something, whether they are scientists, electronics engineers, or just plain dummies like myself. As someone said earlier, our hobby is rife with subjectivity! I take all opinions with grains of salt.
And Warren, like Judit, I am a girl. |
I think the basic information has been presented and discussed, pro and con, on these products. For technical information and patent documents, you can see them at the audiopoints.com website.
There will always be disagreements on what different people want. There have been some comments supportive of the Sistrum stuff, and some comments supporting other stands.
The main point that I tried to make with this thread, is that in my application, the Sistrum equipment worked even better than advertised, and I was happy with the result. I felt that their approach to resonance transfer was in keeping with my ideas on the subject. I wanted to try a whole system approach in applying this idea. I feel it worked very well.
What anyone else wants to use, is up to them. |
I know we have been talking about racks, mostly, in this thread. If you remember my review of the Sistrum Mini Monitor Support System, a month or two back: Starsound has applied the resonance transference principles to their speaker support system For those that have been following this badinage, about resonance transference,and have monitor speakers sitting on Sound Anchor stands or any stands that work on similar principles; take a look at their stands. Monitors aside, they also have systems for floor standing speakers, as well. Changing from the Revel M20 stock stands, to these babies was dramatic. |
