Twl and Garfish, I have been using Audiopoints for the last 8yrs and the Sistrum products for almost 3yrs. I have found with much experimentation that Sistrum alone is the best way to play your hi-fi. You cannot mix and match dampening and resonant energy transfer. As a pair they proved to me to be ineffective and tended to mask and hide detail all the while limiting dynamics. Sistrum grows on you. Once you hear it make your system grow in size, dynamics and detail you will go on a feeding frenzy wanting to buy more. As for the Sonoran cables they are as Twl and KSales spoke, detailed dynamic, smooth as silk yet revealing of differences in program material. I also own the Harmonic Precision Mono amps. These amps are a beautiful extension of the whole theory of resonant energy transfer. The shape and chassis design are an evolutionary progession in to the extraction of electro/mechanical/airborne noise from the electronic siginal path. 110 watts per chn may not sound like much these days driving a pair of still almost Dunlavy Sciv's full range. The Harmonic Precision amps offered a more detailed and faster bass line than my Krell Ksa150 and a larger more detailed and focused soundstage than my before unbeatable Essence power amp. Yea this stuff works. All of these products are an extension of each other all apart of the same food chain adding up to dynamic coherence. These little guys are onto something BIG. Tom
This Sistrum stuff works
Hi. I just got a bunch of Sistrum products to add to my system. The package arrived, with 2 Sistrum Speaker Platforms, 2 Sistrum Equipment Platforms, 2 sets of AudioPoints, a pair of Sonoran Plateau Desert Speaker Cables, and a pair of Sonoran Plateau Cactus RCA Interconnects.
I wanted to try an entire line of products that were designed to work together, using the unique vibration management system that the Sistrum and Sonoran products have. I thought this approach could have some merit.
I put the products into the system, 1 by 1, and listened for differences. I started with the speaker platforms. I immediately noticed that the slight "boxiness" that was present primarily in the lower midrange was almost eliminated. And the bass, and midbass was much more defined than before. Overall clarity seemed improved, but it was already quite clear to start with. One of the more interesting benefits was that I could play louder than before, with less audible distortion. Then I tried the equipment platforms under my preamp and amp. This improved the focus of the entire presentation by several percent. And again, I could play even louder before noticing any distortion occurring. The next candidate was the Audiopoints under my Teres TT. This was where I noticed an increase in detail and lowering of the noise floor. I had already used BDR cones and Cocobolo Cones under the TT, and these beat both of those quite convincingly. The final thing was the Sonoran Cables. These need some time to break in, but after about 4 hours of playing, this package is giving me the best sound that I have ever gotten from this system. The cables, even right out of the box, were quite open and detailed, with no high-frequency rolloff that I had experienced with some other cables I've tried, like Cardas Golden. After just a few hours, the bass was really showing excellent tonality and control. The mids were as open as my DIY cables, which had previously slain all comers. I expect these Sonoran cables to improve over the next couple of weeks, and that will be a nice treat, because they are already sounding quite good indeed.
Now, I have to admit that I have not tried a boatload of different cables, but I have tried a few. My cone and support situation was in need, and I didn't have a very good vibration control system in place before I got this stuff. Maybe other stuff can do very well too. But I can say that this Sistrum and Sonoran stuff does exactly what it says it does, and I am very pleased with the results that I got on my system.
In addition, I really like the appearance of these products, and that never hurts, even though my audio room looks more like a workshop than a living room. I go primarily for performance, and not looks. The sound is the key issue for me. But good looks are always a positive, if the sound is also good.
I would say that I recieved an honest 15% improvement in the clarity, tonal quality(especially in the low end), and in maximum SPL that I can now attain. Although I didn't measure it, I feel that I got an additional 3db SPL over what I was getting before. And with the improved clarity and tone at the same time. With my low power tube system, this was a very big plus, because it was like getting more power out of my amp. Sistrum claims that when you use their products, you get better efficiency from your system, including amps and speakers, due to proper vibration management. I now believe that this is true, because I experienced that in my testing with my system.
I could heartily recommend these products to others, because I feel that if they work on my system, they will work on others. The technology works. I'm happy.
While other isolation products may be very good, and also other cables may be very good, I feel that these are doing a great job, and have good neutrality, but let the sound and dynamics come through crystal clear, and from top to bottom.
This package wasn't cheap, at about $3000 retail for all the items I got. But it is not anywhere near the high price that alot of other cables and racks cost. I think it strikes a very good level of performance for a reasonable price. I can't buy $8k speaker cables, or $5k audio racks.
I'd recommend them for anyone to try out. They really do work, just as the manufacturer claims.
I wanted to try an entire line of products that were designed to work together, using the unique vibration management system that the Sistrum and Sonoran products have. I thought this approach could have some merit.
I put the products into the system, 1 by 1, and listened for differences. I started with the speaker platforms. I immediately noticed that the slight "boxiness" that was present primarily in the lower midrange was almost eliminated. And the bass, and midbass was much more defined than before. Overall clarity seemed improved, but it was already quite clear to start with. One of the more interesting benefits was that I could play louder than before, with less audible distortion. Then I tried the equipment platforms under my preamp and amp. This improved the focus of the entire presentation by several percent. And again, I could play even louder before noticing any distortion occurring. The next candidate was the Audiopoints under my Teres TT. This was where I noticed an increase in detail and lowering of the noise floor. I had already used BDR cones and Cocobolo Cones under the TT, and these beat both of those quite convincingly. The final thing was the Sonoran Cables. These need some time to break in, but after about 4 hours of playing, this package is giving me the best sound that I have ever gotten from this system. The cables, even right out of the box, were quite open and detailed, with no high-frequency rolloff that I had experienced with some other cables I've tried, like Cardas Golden. After just a few hours, the bass was really showing excellent tonality and control. The mids were as open as my DIY cables, which had previously slain all comers. I expect these Sonoran cables to improve over the next couple of weeks, and that will be a nice treat, because they are already sounding quite good indeed.
Now, I have to admit that I have not tried a boatload of different cables, but I have tried a few. My cone and support situation was in need, and I didn't have a very good vibration control system in place before I got this stuff. Maybe other stuff can do very well too. But I can say that this Sistrum and Sonoran stuff does exactly what it says it does, and I am very pleased with the results that I got on my system.
In addition, I really like the appearance of these products, and that never hurts, even though my audio room looks more like a workshop than a living room. I go primarily for performance, and not looks. The sound is the key issue for me. But good looks are always a positive, if the sound is also good.
I would say that I recieved an honest 15% improvement in the clarity, tonal quality(especially in the low end), and in maximum SPL that I can now attain. Although I didn't measure it, I feel that I got an additional 3db SPL over what I was getting before. And with the improved clarity and tone at the same time. With my low power tube system, this was a very big plus, because it was like getting more power out of my amp. Sistrum claims that when you use their products, you get better efficiency from your system, including amps and speakers, due to proper vibration management. I now believe that this is true, because I experienced that in my testing with my system.
I could heartily recommend these products to others, because I feel that if they work on my system, they will work on others. The technology works. I'm happy.
While other isolation products may be very good, and also other cables may be very good, I feel that these are doing a great job, and have good neutrality, but let the sound and dynamics come through crystal clear, and from top to bottom.
This package wasn't cheap, at about $3000 retail for all the items I got. But it is not anywhere near the high price that alot of other cables and racks cost. I think it strikes a very good level of performance for a reasonable price. I can't buy $8k speaker cables, or $5k audio racks.
I'd recommend them for anyone to try out. They really do work, just as the manufacturer claims.
125 responses Add your response
Max, I have a floor that is very similar to yours. I have a wood floor on traditional suspended joists, over a crawl space under the house. I don't have a carpet. I use rugs on the floor in front of my speakers to keep reflections down. But my floor is just like yours. I think what is happening is, that somehow the vibrations in the equipment are carried down to the floor, but the vibrations don't go up from the floor into the equipment. I don't know exactly how they do this, but this seems to be what is going on. Something to do with the geometry of these cones and platforms. They work differently somehow. And the results are unmistakeable. My system really sounds better, and I can play louder with less distortion. That is a big plus for me. Some unwanted colorations were eliminated from my speaker system. That was really nice. If these items didn't work like they said, I wouldn't have gotten this kind of result. That's the bottom line for me. And if I didn't like them, you can bet I would have boxed them up and sent them back. I'm not a millionaire. |
I think the only way to protect your equipment from airborne resonances is to place everything in a vacuum. Yes? Problem is you should also place your speakers in the vacuum, because, they too, suffer from the deleterious affects of airborne resonances. Sand, and the like, unfortunately absorb the good resonances, as well as the bad. No distinction is made by the sand, lead, etc. I don't want to beat you, unbelievers, to death with this rap.. It works for me, and I'm very happy with the Sistrum products. Starsound Technologies offers a money back guarentee. You can't beat that with a stick. Put it to your tympanics, and then call me... peace and happy listening,warren |
Garfish, that's an interesting idea. I know Steve M. is a very knowledgeable guy. I wonder what the idea behind the dual-method is? Maybe he is just covering all the bases, in case one method isn't working, the other one will. I don't know. All I know at this point is, that what I have now is an improvement over what I had before. A pretty good improvement, and it uses the resonance transfer method. I previously tried all the typical things like tennis balls cut in half, and styrofoam platforms, and different cones, and all the usual stuff. This Sistrum stuff did alot better for my system than any of the other things. So, that's good enough for me right now. I'm not selling any of this stuff, just reporting on it. |
Twl; an interesting thread. Just a point re coupling vs decoupling: all of Steve McCormack's early DNA amps use BOTH. The DNA amps have big Sorbothane feet for isolating the amp from degrading vibrations at the front of the amp, and they also have a steel spike located toward the center rear of the amp to drain vibes from the amp into whatever it sits on. I've owned many DNA amps and have found this dual system to be effective, and of course Steve McCormack was one of the pioneers in the field of vibration control in high end audio equipment with development of his "Tip Toes". I've also found that additional vibration control with the DNA amps to be effective depending on circunstances. Cheers. Craig |
Twl, thanks for the reply. I do wonder if it is dependant on the type of floor you have? I have a carpet covered, plywood and wood joist floor, over a shallow crawl space, for my listening room. I can't imagine wanting to transfer any more vibration into it. This is why I asked you and Lak specifically to respond as I sort of have an idea where you both are coming from. I find MOST of the other posts to be of value as well. I asked this question because there seems to be such a high degree of polarity on this topic. Yes I am an isolation"ist" and can see from my system listing what I have been up to. Just trying to get as much info as I can soak up. |
As far as "cones" go, different shapes, materials and the placement of the cone under both the equipment being supported and the point that it makes contact on the shelf will all effect things. Try reading the article below. It is not an "end all" in regards to coupling / isolation by any means, but it is very interesting none the less. Sean > Stereophile article "Bad Vibes" by Shannon Dickson |
Max, from what I understand about the Audiopoints, they use a specific type of brass, and a special geometry in the cone shape that is designed to transfer resonances in a better way than just normal brass cones. I have used different cones of different materials, and read alot of copy about cones. Mostly the normal cones are working off of having a very small point of contact, to minimize vibration transfer from the floor. The Audiopoints are using a different idea, which is to transfer the resonance from the equipment to the mechanical "ground" of the floor and the earth. They may both be cone shaped, but there are differences in the shapes, and materials, and the idea is totally different from a normal cone, brass or otherwise. The design is patented, and I don't know everything about it, and the stuff I know is available from their website. However, they did work very well for me, and I have always been a proponent of "coupling" instead of isolation, especially with TTs. That was one reason that I decided on Sistrum and Audiopoints, because they have a similar philosophy on coupling and resonance transfer, as I have. I'm not saying that there are no other good cones out there, but I am saying that these worked real well for me, and better than the other cones I used, including BDR. I also believe that using the consistent approach to vibration control all the way through the system, was a proper way to approach this problem. I don't say that everyone will want to use this, or should trash their existing stuff and rush out to buy this. But I do think that it worked for me, and if people are in the market for a set of points, equipment stand or a rack, then maybe they should take a look at this stuff. It performed well and it looks nice, in my opinion. That's what points and racks are supposed to do, and this does it. And they have a money back guarantee, so if you don't like it for some reason, you can return it. I don't see how it could be any easier to find out if you like something. I liked it, and I see from some of these posts that others do too. As far as air bags and stuff like that, I never was a proponent of that type of isolation on TTs. Every soft isolation I ever used under a TT totally killed the sound. I even have posts that are almost a year old about that in the archives. I now find that coupling works well on the other components too. It may not be for everyone, but it is good for me. |
Warrenh: I isolate my complete system (with the exception of 4 feet of speaker cable per side, the speakers and the stands), from "most" airborne vibration and doing so was quite a simple task (plus it did not cost anything). I have been using this type of setup since the early 1970's, but mainly in the past to isolate TT's (never thought that it would make much of a difference with amps and such before, but of course it does, especially with tube amps). Click on my system for the details. |
Trial and error. I have no opinion about the physics of it. In fact, physics is inscrutible to me, and consequently bores me to tears. I have used Audiopoints for years, but in various combinations. They always improve cd players, but they were not a winner under my preamp. I also use them under my amp and sub. But in the case of my dvd, I use them under the player and then I use an AirMass under the cones. With both my cdp's, the cones go into the rack, based on sound. Go figure. I don't think it pays to be dogmatic about whether one, ah, couples or decouples. Going both ways can work, sometimes even with the same component. I go with what my ears tell me is working. Full stop |
Max- The main difference between the applications is airborne vibration as Warren stated. I don't know of any lab situations that include a pair of speakers playing at 105 dB peaks in close proximity to the pneumatic tables (often with 300 lbs granite slabs). The pneumatic table that I used with telescopes was close to 10 ton. They work very well in isolating the equipment from ground based vibration. The question is which form of vibration is more detrimental during the listening event, the occasional truck rumble or earthquake, or the near continuous influence due to in-room airborne vibration? This is just my interpretation from a limited understanding of the subject. I'm sure that there are others that could provide a better comparison. Good luck. |
I have noticed a difference in the general soundstage of my equipment since getting the sistrum racks. How much is rather hard to quantify. Frankly I am not quite as bowled over by the cones as others, although for the money the rack is a great piece and worhwhile. Most high end speaker manufacturers reccomend spikes so to a certain extent the cones certainly have credibility. With my system it is more difficult to evaluate the full impact of the racks because so much else good is going on. However, the cable and amps without question made a huge positive contribution. When my wife, who prefers a boom box to almost anything, remarks at the difference in sound when the cable was added, and then noticed even more improvement with the amps without having any knowledge that I had done anything to the system, you know something good is happening. |
O.K., Lak and Twl, we have had some discussions in the past that have been great and very informative. Can you explain to me why the Systrum stuff is any different than any other cones? I have been playing around with cones starting with the Mod Squad Tip Toes for years. They do change the sound. The Systrum stuff appears to be just two cones, one pointed up and one pointed down. There's a guy here on AGon that pushes this stuff at me like the follower of a cult ministry stuffing literature in my face at an airport and parroting the Audio Point manifesto. Yet I am quite sure he has not tried the alternate method he so adimantly puts down. (you know who you are)I hate to say that this approach tends to turn me off and my reaction is to write it off as "kooky" talk along with everything else he has to say. I am trying to keep an open mind here and hope you two guys can shed some light on this for me. I tend to be more in the camp of an article written by Doug Blackburn in Soundstage, under the link, columns, "Exploding the Myth of the Cone Footer". Blackburn feels that they are(pun intended)somewhat pointless. He makes the case that the scientific community relies on pneumatic and hydraulic devices for use with devices like laser support platforms and microscopes and that no other apptication can be found for cone points other that in high end audio. To use another example to ilustrate the devide among some of us, who seem to agree on many other topics,I piont to Alan Kafton at Audio Excellence. You guys seem to be on the same page with him on many items, like Vouight Pipes, cryo treated Hubbell outlets,& tube electronics, yet Alan(though I can't speak for him) is selling and obviously belives in the Tounshend Audio products such as the Seismic Sink. I have no direct experience with the Systrun stuff so I am not syaing it does not do what you say it does. I don't have an unlimited budget to try every device, cable,& tweak out there(I wish I did!). I just wonder what gives here? |
I'm with Twl and Warren and everyone else on the value and performance of the Sistrum products. I have owned the Sistrum component rack and two speaker platforms (under my Genesis 500's) for nearly 2 years now and couldn't be happier. Like Brulee, I didn't want to overpraise, and overcontribute, about these products. I spent a LOT of time on the phone with Robert about Starsound products and technology before I tried the stand. I was stunned by both the looks and the sonic improvements to my system. All of my components are on the sistrum stand except for my power amp (ARC VT100 III) which is on a Sound Anchors stand on the floor--but I screwed Audiopoints into the stand in place of the supplied spikes! So I am trying to follow the philosophy as much as possible. The stand is cheap compared to other high end stands. I have not yet tried any of the Sonoran cables but may, based on this latest report from Twl and others. |
I want to jump into the amen corner. I have a whole line of star sound products. I purchased the Sistrum racks. Sonoran plateau speaker cable, interconnects all around, and harmonic precision 110 amps. Their performance is remarkable. The amazing thing is that over time I have noticed consistent improvement. I was skeptical of the gear at first considering that for high end equipment the price was pretty reasonable. However, I started by listening to a friends cable and was very impressed. After having been dedicated to nordost for years I found the sonoran to be revealing while still retaining a certain warmth I found very satisfying. I still use nordost on a second system, but may even change on that as well. The stands are as described by others. The amps are really the blow away factor for me. I was utterly committed to going to real big boy amps. I had demod many products including krell,spectral, and Mark Levinson. All were great and absolutely was going to get the ML 436 which was fabulous. My buddy convinced me to demo the hps and after initial bad impression because of the need for breakin was totally impressed by the warm tube like character of these amps plus the rather surprising dynamic range despite what appears to be a low power match for my Revel Studio speakers. To say I am sold on this as the others is an understatement. I have refrained recentlyfrom being quite as vocal because sometimes when you really love gear here people do accuse you of being an insider. I am just a buyer. I put my money into this gear. The cable I purchased was approximately 12 40-50 ft. runs. I paid a lot, but a fraction of what Nordost Cardas, or Kimber would have charged. My room is prewired for the future Tom 10+ standard. |
Welcome to the world of resonance transference. I've been there for a year and have been grooving. It's difficult spreading the word, when, for years, everyone seems to want to isolate, or decouple, and at the same time, throw in coupling devices. Most, mix the two; not having a clue that they are defeating the very principles envolved with coupling or decoupling. I love the Sistrum products. Perhaps you read my review on the Sistrum Mini Monitor platforms. I, too, use their points and racks. Unbelievabele. It is an attainable goal to couple equipment, rather than, isolate. In fact, it's just about impossible to isolate. I've said it a zillion times: how to you isolate from airborne resonances? You can't. And then the very things you use to isolate, keep those deleterious, microphonous meanies in your system. Maybe this thread will inspire more to check into the science/principles of energy transference. Good luck with your new toys. I know exactly what you're experiencing. It's cool, huh? warren |
I have been talking about Sistrum a little too much. I thought it best to to back off for a time. It seems when you find something that's so good as the Sistrum, you want to let others know. You keep talking too much and then you are accused as being a dealer or in league with the company. I feel that the Starsound (Sistrum) racks, speaker platforms, PCs, and their wire is as good as I have heard. In fact, I believe that you will never realize the full potential of your components and speakers without these incredible products. You have a 30 day trial. IMO, these racks are just as important as your audio gear. You also are dealing with a company that will bend over backwards for you. If your not happy, they aren't happy. You won't believe what these products will do for your system. I even warned Robert not to be surprised if I returned what I ordered. Now i have to get several more Starsound stuff. Talk is cheap. Try it out and you might find it to be the best gift you could give to your system. If not, ya get your money back. |
