I have a couple of suggestions for those who would like to maximize the performance of the internal Dac of Preos-D. Try the Mutec MC3+USB either as usb interface or reclocker. Try to connect the Mutec to the digital input of Preos using a top digital cable ( my personal picks would be the Argento FMR, Tidal Reference digital cable and the Stereomatic Tombo Tron).
The above combination would reduce the incoming jitter enough to demonstrate the magic of the ladder Dac inside the Preos |
|
After having spent a few days with Tidal Preos-D in my house this summer, I am finally buying one to replace my Sovereign Director preamplifier. Many people know about the quality of the preamplifier that is easily among the best.
I haven't heard many opinions about the DAC that is included inside. My personal belief is that the internal dac of Preos-D ranks extremely high ( I had extensive comparisons with my Stahl Tek Vekian and the Tidal dac is at least as good as the Vekian). So when someone considers the Preos-D he must take into account that he is buying top class preamplifier and DAC in the same time. It is terrific value for money even if some people think that its price is obscure. |
The Piano G2 is based on the Piano Cera and as such does NOT have the diamond tweeter. |
I adore my Piano Diaceras. The Contrivas would be more speaker than my listening area could accommodate.
Though I am very happy with my current setup if I were to do any changes I would like to try some Tidal electronics.
Seems Tidal is rolling out some new stuff at the Munich show. |
With over one hundred hours of listening on the new speakers, I can report that the Contriva G2s are outstanding. While I enjoyed the the Tidal Piano Diaceras very much, the G2s offer more transparency, better imaging and a seamless soundstage. And of course, with the larger drivers, the G2s can go deeper into the lower frequencies. Its now all about the music. |
How do you like your new Tidal Contriva G2 loudspeakers? |
I recently had the opportunity to upgrade my Tidal Preos pre-amp to the latest version, Preos-D. I have listened to the Tidal premier Presencio, which has incredible sound and conveys all the emotion one would expect from this ultra-high-end phono and pre amplifier, but the Preos-D does get much of the performance and at more affordable cost.
In addition to the MC-phono section, that truly does sound amazing in its clarity and presence, the Preos-D includes a non-oversampling ladder DAC along with the line level inputs. I did not expect to utilize the DAC since I have a dCS Puccini, which has a built-in DAC. During an audition at Doug Whites Studio (The Voice That Is), we decided to do a comparison between the two DACs. Much to my surprise, the Tidal DAC even bettered the sound from a PCM source, offering more presence than the Puccini RCA analog outs directly into the preamp.
For all those who are enjoying the Tidal Preos, the Preos-D is a nice improvement and the DAC can make a significant improvement in the enjoyment of PCM sources. |
I finally heard Tidal Presencio in Taipei Hi-End show one week ago, and met Jorn in person, he told me there is new model of pre-amp is on the road, it can reach 97% performance of Presencio at friction of the price, yet single ended, no balanced I/O, let's wait and see. |
Anyone compared Tidal Presencio to FM Acoustic FM 266? |
TBG,
I will certainly do that! Thanks for your advice...:-)
Jake |
Azjake, what you are doing is awesome. I would look very closely at the StillPoint Rack. |
Hi Geopolitis!
They will be ready by the end of November as will the electronics and all cables.
At that time Jorn will take my Sunrays into the listening room, cover it with fine cloth [to protect BOTHWOOD FINISH AND DRIVERS] and will let them break-in for 1 month to check all aspects with his team...
He will then attend CES 2011 in early Jan. and after it is over he will leave for my residence the next day!
He and his team shall be working the system for three 8 hr. days with full musical science gear.
My room will have been redone by then with floating walls and 8 dedicated lines of 10guage that will feed the 4 amps while two more will feed the analog pS Audio Regenerator and the Digital PS Audio regenerator
Last two will be to my SteveDobbins two custom tt's ...A Garrard 301 with Loricraft ps and Technics Mark3 both with Reed arms and assorted cartridges.
Digital is the Esoteric 1 series with 2 dacs, transport and clock...
I am still deciding on what racking system i will choose as i have both 3 headamps and a tuner to fit in as well phew!!! |
Hi Azjake,
when are you expecting the delivery of your new system? |
remember guys,
think CURRENT as opposed to WATTS here!
Azjake |
My personal experience with a Tidal Contriva driven by a set of Wavac 805 SET monoblocks (Tidal Preos was the preamplifier) was that this combo was simply magic. There was no problem to play different kinds of music in normal listening levels. We didn't try to play it too loud but if someone is listening to music in normal levels he could hapilly live with such a combo. It was exceptional. |
Posted by: Brian Ackerman / Aaudio imports
on behalf of Jorn Janckaz / Tidal
My name is Jörn Janczak from TIDAL, Germany. I want to clear some things if
it comes to the power needs of TIDAL speakers in general. Aside of private
experiences and opinions, I would like to offer my side as the engineer
behind Tidal Speakers and my experience with TIDAL speaker clients worldwide
for over a decade. Now my help and advice:
Electrically, one can run them also with low power amps and everyone should
feel free to check if they will be happy with it. About half of all TIDAL
clients do like to drive TIDAL speakers with tube amps below 100 watts and are
super happy with it. The other half drives them with very good solid state
amps and are also super happy with it. If a speaker is free of flaws and does
not colorize a signal, then one can "color" it with the amp of choice and
give it a preference in tonality.
In fact the Piano / Piano Cera / Piano Diacera series is the "hardest load"
TIDAL has, with impedance between 4.2 - 8.5 ohm, the electrical phase shift is
small, efficiency is the lowest in our range. We do have clients driving it
with 40 watt SET amps and are totally happy with it. Healthy 100 watt at 8 ohm
brings it even further and can drive it to the max, but it is not a must. As with
all TIDAL speakers it grows with the quality of the amps/chain/room. But
from the electrical side it is in fact an easy load. We never go down lower
then 4.2 ohm with these speakers.
Contriva / Contriva Diacera is an easy load at, 4.1 - 6.5 ohm all the time,
very good efficiency for a dynamic speaker with a linear (!) frequency
response. I had clients here in my demo room (40m²) bringing their 25 watt
SET amps, and it played amazingly loud and dynamic. As always; more power drives
it even further and with a real 160 watt at 8 ohms one can drive it already to
the max. excursion (depending on the software one is feeding this speaker
with) into an area where one can risk damage to their beloved ears already.
Absolutely ready for SET. And yes it can handle a lot of power and shows
that the limits can not be touched by 25 watts, but as always; it is a CAN
be, not a MUST to drive it with more power then that. Always quality before
quantity!
Sunray: from the electrical side - most easy to drive speaker. Even
though it has 7 drivers here, the impedance is almost linear at about 4.8 ohm -
5.5 ohm and has almost no phase shifting, the x-over inside is managing it
perfectly to melt all the seven drivers to a single-unit without any
electrical bug inside. Like other speakers can do with dips below 4 ohm,
sometimes even below 2 ohm. We have for e.g. a client driving a Sunray with
30 watt Audionote Ongaku amps in a big room (> 50m² with very high ceilings)
and it sounds great, live and dynamic. Yes, it could play even more dynamic
and louder with even more power, but the difference is like driving 120 mph
or 140 mph. In reality we all listen to normal level with headroom for
louder passages like in orchestral music, not crazy party levels. For those
guys, yes, we recommend power > 150 watts on 8 ohm. For all Tidal speaker models.
To show how "theoretical" numbers, here are some easy simple facts from
physics: 1dB more needs about a third more power, 1dB more is not to hear in
reality terms. 2 times more power just means a level increase of 3dB. Almost
not to hear. So if an amp has 100 watt or 200 watt makes electrical wise
almost no difference. About 10dB more means for the human ear about "twice
as loud", to make this happen one needs 10 times more power! That means: the
client with the a 30 watt SET amp would have to bring a SET amp with 300 watts to say
"now it is about twice as loud".
My point is; electrically one can run it also with low power amps and
everyone should feel free to check if they will be happy with it. About a
third of all TIDAL clients worldwide do like to drive TIDAL speakers with
tubes below 100 watt and are super happy with it. The other clients drive it
with very good solid state and are also super happy with it. If a speaker is
free of flaws and does not colorize a signal, then one can "color" it with
the amp of choice and give it a preference in tonality.
with best regards from Germany,
Jörn Janczak
CEO, TIDAL Audio GmbH |
Speaking from experience, and having had all models of the Tidal speakers in my showroom I can offer my advise for proper amplification for each model.
The first thing to remember is that all Tidal speakers like power, but quality power! These speakers will show off what your amplifier is made of.
I find the Piano series to play well with a good 100 watts. It's important that your amplifier is very stable into all impedances, and can supply high current. Therefore I would select an amp with a well designed and strong power supply.
Remember room size also comes into play. If you have a small listening room the amp won't have to work as hard to fill the air space. Large listening rooms can drain your amps power quickly, so make sure you have extra power in reserve for larger rooms.
The Contriva's and Sunray's are more power hungry than the Piano models, and they simply won't come alive if under powered, and you will lose the real magic these speakers are capable of.
Since the Contriva's have a single set of binding posts you cant bi-amp them. So a really good high power stereo amp or mono block is needed. I always prefer mono amps for a speaker of this caliber, and these speakers will return the favor with greatly enhanced performance. But don't try to skimp on your choice of amp to save a few bucks because the Contriva's won't let you get away with it.
The Sunray's are definitely the most critical Tidal speakers. They will put your amp under a microscope and dissect it. The Sunray's are also the most versatile Tidal speaker, allowing you to run single or multiple amps, and the option of adding Tidal's LPX external crossover, or adding the T-1 sub towers. I started out using 1 pair of Einstein 60 watt OTL amps on the Sunray's to see where I stand. My main listening room is 18.5 ft x 24 ft x 9 ft (WxDxH), and the room is professionally treated and tuned by golden acoustics. Pictures can bee seen on my website at www.aaudioimports.com , or please email me and I will send you pictures.
The single pair of Einstein MK60's certainly did a fine job of driving the Sunray's. These amps have been a favorite of mine for many years now, and on the right speaker loads they are pure magic! And will draw tears to your eye's. If the speaker load is not ideal they will still sound very good, but you will lose a good dose of their magic. Running a second set of the OTL's and bi-amping the Sunray's produced much better results! This was similar to what I heard with the Acapella Triolon speakers.
There are many other high powered amplifiers which will make the Sunray's sing. It really comes down to flavor because the Sunray's will mirror your amp. If you prefer to bi-amp and want the ultimate performance I highly recommend adding Tidal's LPX.
I hope this information is helpful.
Best Regards, Brian Ackerman
US Importer: Tidal Audio |
Karelfd, thanks for your informative post. I would dearly love to hear Tidal electronics on the Contrivas, but this looks improbable here in the US. I even thought to come to the Munich Show, but really seldom can generalize from what I hear at shows.
These speakers are so revealing and sensitive to set up and they are evidently still well short of a full break in. I just hate thinking that I am not getting their full benefit.
My best opportunity will be this summer when I will venture to the US Tidal importer's home to hear the Ypsilon hybrid monos and the Sovereign Glory on the Sunrays.
Again, thanks for your post.
Norm |
Hi Tbg, although I have lately pleaded for generous amplification with the Tidals myself (it would indeed be a crying shame to leave these speakers famished), I would see the matter less dramatic as to define minimum requirements of 200w per channel for the Contriva. I perfectly understand it leaves one with a feeling of "must have" when Tidal's own web page states: "To use the whole enormous dynamic range of it and listening complex music also from time to time very loud we recommend 200 watts at 8 ohm." Yet, I have been living with the previous model Contriva driven by a Tidal Intra - which delivers something like 2x 120 watts - in a fairly large room. Sure, I have felt the desire to own a pair of Impact monos (and still do ;^)), but, in honesty, not because the speakers were in obvious need of more juice. Of course, stable and fast the appropriate amp should be, allowing the horse called "Music" to jump, run and kick freely as far and high and fast as it can but, by all means, never suffocate it with its bridle. I believe.
In addition to Geopolitis's list, an alternative product that may fill the bill where high power output is demanded is Karan, starting with KA-PAS 450 delivering 2x 360 watts into 8 Ώ and performing naturally and musically refined; no guarantee though, just gut feeling based on limited time spent listening to it in another system.
On my personal auditioning wish-list, I would like to hear what a couple of Einstein OTLs (The Final Cut MK 60) would be able to do paired with Contrivas, although that translates in 2x 60 watts only,... just being curious... |
Tbg,
no I have not. It will be an excellent source of information if you could try out some top amplification with your speakers. I would definetely try out the Tidal, Sovereign, Soulution, Edge And Gryphon amplifiers. |
Geopolitis, have you ever tried the Lindemann amp? |
I own the Sovereign Power and it is true that the binding posts accept bananas. But I managed to remove the protective plastic around them to use my Argento Flow speaker cable that have spades termination.
Regarding amplification power I believe that if you want to enjoy the full dynamic range that these speakers can offer, even a Sovereign Glory could be challenged. To be honest I believe that the Contriva should be driven by a set of Sovereign Eternity monoblock amplifiers. These speakers need a lot of power. I recently tried the Sovereign Power (165Wrms) with the Tidal Piano Cera and it had some difficulties when music was very loud. The Glory would be a perfect match for the Ceras. |
There has been much discussion of the Sovereign, Tidal, and other electronics here. Now that I have my Contrivas at least initially broken in, I am beginning to wonder if the 100 watt H-Cat amp that I have may become congressed in loud passages.
The US importer recommends 200 watts into 8 ohm amps, but the Tidal Impact amp only does 140 watts into 8 ohms. The Sovereign Glory seems to be 240 watts into 8 ohms.
My question is whether any of you have found your amplifiers to lack necessary wattage on the Tidals?
Also I notice on the Glory review that it lacks binding posts or at least looks like it has only banana connections. Is this true and does it cause a problem? |
Murataltuev,
Thank you very much for the kind words...I too believe i am headed in that direction and shall invite others to share this with me!
Regards,
Jake |
Azjake, you step on the way to paradise, I believe!
Congratulations!
Happy you:)
Pinkus, Tidal and Argento definately knows something that others not!
You just need to listen to it and than you'll know it:) |
Many thanks Azjake for your kind words.... |
Karelfd,
You will indeed be happy to know that both your love for music and descriptions of what you were hearing was indeed a healthy piece of the puzzle and for that i thank you!
Geopolitis, you have waved the Tidal flag almost from the beginning and have listed fairly all the other top 4 contenders out there [at least as you and i see it!] Your belief and passion for the hobby is obvious and it has helped me to audition Argento's line as well so a THANKS goes out to you as well...:0)
Finally, my dear Pinkus...As i have admitted earlier i have drank the Koolaid on MORE then one occassion and it's bitter aftertaste has made me much the better judge! So if this too shall be Koolaid then i shall drink heartily knowing much of what you listed i have already had so i was on the right track...:0)
I thank you all for your well wishes and shall now go into that mode of a child waiting for Christmas day! |
Either Tidal knows something that Wilson, KEF, Magico, Burmester, Ascendo, Sonus Faber, etc. etc don't know ....
Or you guys have drunk the Koolaid !
All in harmless fun. Enjoy ! |
Congratulations Azjake, you will soon have one of the top systems on earth. |
Azjake, I stand here facing west knowing I'm looking in the direction of a divine-system-to-be. And if my raving about my own experience with Tidal has helped the tiniest little bit of a shred of a fragment in arriving at your decision, I feel genuinely proud. In Munich, 37 days from now, I hope to hear the same Tidal amp/speaker set-up with a Da Vinci analog source.
Congratulations, dear friend, enjoy the music! |
Well thanks guys for this lengthy and interesting group of answers, Audiofeil not withstanding...
I'm 58 yrs. young with 30 years in the music business in audio/video recording and production. I have made my share of bad choices as well as greatly satisfying ones both as pertains to cables and components but have tried to learn by listening and perfecting my true audio goals such as they are for true musical enjoyment where a neutral presentation is tantamount to realism!
Short story...I have just signed on to purchase the entire Tidal line.4 Impacts, Presencio,Active crossover,Sunray wired with MY choice of Argento Flowmaster cables on F.E. racks and Esoteric digital,Technics Mk3 and Garrard 301 by Steve Dobbins...
I waited a lifetime to get off the merry-go-round and i have absolute certainty in my choices, but NO LESS RESPECT for others and they're paths!
Enjoy music,not hardware! |
Hi Maxx1973,
Congrates again on those awesome speakers! So you are confirmed April? Bet your current gears will do just fine driving them. Would love to hear your comparative notes of the Tidal electronics. |
Congrats Tbg! Where are you in TX? |
Maxx1973, which Tidals are you getting? My Contriva Diacera SE are finally in route to Texas. You can only imagine what anticipation I have. I have never had the opportunity to hear any of the Tidal electronics. Perhaps in the future. |
Interesting thread.
I'm very interesting as well to listing to the Tidal electronics in my own system. They are not cheap, but not that expensive, looking at the prices of ultra high-end audio nowadays. (except the Presencio :)).
I've recently bought a pair of Tidal speakers and am waiting on delivery. Impatiently waiting, but will be well worth the wait :). Really thrilled since I loved the sound when I listened to them previously. It was a full Tidal system, speakers, amp and pre-amp, except for the CD player. It was actually the Presencio that was used as pre-amp.
Very natural sounding, fast and musical. Could listen to it all day long. And the room wasn't even acoustically treated. I like the fact that some (or maybe all, not sure on that) of the Tidal speaker can be adjusted based on room hardness, lots of reflections or not. Makes them easy to integrate in any listening environment. I enjoy that since I'll put them in my living room and choose the best setting. My wife doesn't allow me to have the living room decorated with all sorts of bass traps, acoustic panels etc. :)
When I get my Tidal speakers at home in a month or so (I hope), I'll try to get the Tidal Impact stereo amp at home as well for a more thorough comparison with my current electronics. Will share my findings on this forum. |
I don't always assume "in his own experience" is implied everytime someone uses "best" to describe a peice of equipment. I would agree there are times that is what is meant, but there are also times it is meant literally. If we wanted to avoid the debate altogether we could just say "my personal favorite" instead of "best" and remove the competitive nature of the word altogether...
I have no dog in this hunt, I was only commenting on why threads sometimes get into the attack and defend tone this one has in places.
I have not heard the Preos so I have no basis to describe it relative to anything else I have heard. There are several preamps I have heard that I really like, I bought the one I own now based on my enjoyment of it, but am under no delusion to the extent that I consider it "best" as I wouldn't even know what the rating system used to make such a determination would be. I just know I enjoy it immensely and if someone else should listen to the same pre and like it, good for them, if not, I could understand that too.
carry on and enjoy the listening! |
Murataltuev,
I must say one thing. If you listen the Presencio in your system you will probably think that the Preos is broken! |
I believe that everyone who says "best" means his own expirience.
I don't see any problem with it.
I also say that Tidal Preos is BEST preamp in the world.
Arthur, if you had compared Preos with something better, tell me!
I'll get it for audition. |
I think this type of discourse starts when we use the term "best" and forget to include "to my ears" or "that I have heard" or "in my opinion" or "obviously others may prefer other types of (insert peice of equipment here)"...I would agree with the opinion that it should be about fun and sharing, but I also recognize not everyone thinks the same and so from time to time we end up debating the word "best"... |
De-escallate guys, this is not religion, we're actually supposed to enjoy this.
For my own part, this is merely a way to share information on brilliant or not-so-brilliant music I heard and the gear that reproduced it.
Now, the mighty Tidal Presencio has been such a unique experience that I will actually use the qualification "best" for it. Might there be a hermite designer somewhere who could do even "best-er" provided he had access to at least the same quality of parts and assembly craftmanship - in itself a formidable feat! If someone knows one, please stand up and speak but no use jumping into any debate if one hasn't actually heard the Presencio as well.
Tidal Preos? One of the best for sure. Pinpointing it in second place? In my own world and opinion, yes. (To get that out of the way, Bill, I am of course biased because I already put my hard-earned money where my mouth is.) That being so, I'd urge everyone on a quest for their own "best" to have the Preos on the shortlist. Could it change? Why yes, the Presencio showed "better" can happen right in the next room. And if someone else's system, preferred music, personal taste, listening habits or indeed considerations of diminishing return lead to another personal champion that is perfectly valid.
What I would hope for on the other hand is that people only judge gear they've actually heard and don't discard things because they don't like the brand, don't like the place it's built, don't like others speaking in favor, don't like hypes in general or just because it's Monday. |
>>03-24-10: Geopolitis
You just need to find one preamplifier to prove me wrong<<
No I don't.
You made the claim. You have the burden of proof.
It's interesting that often those with the most money, have the least experience.
You're a good example. |
Sovereign Director is not balanced. It is one of the top preamplifiers in the world but in absolute terms you might say that the Tidal is better. |
And what about Sovereign Director?
Is it balanced? Can match Tidal's performance? |
I believe the Rowland Criterion Might be competitive. |
You just need to find one preamplifier to prove me wrong.
Name one worthy preamplifier to sit next to Preos. I will name just one that was humiliated by the the Tidal.
Wavac PR - T1.... |
>>03-23-10: Geopolitis
No preamp can match a Tidal Preos<<
Prove it. |
Presencio is much better than Preos and if buy it without the phono stage module you will save some money. But overall I doubt whether someone can create a better preamplifier in the following years... |
Wow! This means I don't need to look for any other preamp.
Just wait when I can afford Presencio!
Thank you, Geopolitis. This is good and bad news at the same time.
In Russia price is arround 100k$:) |
The Tidal Presencio is fully balanced design (a friend bought one and it doesn't have any single ended inputs!!!!)
No preamp can match a Tidal Preos (maybe you should try Soulution but I really doubt) |
