Contemplating sending my Tri-Planar Vll back to Tri Mai for his "SE Upgrade". Essentially, same carbon fiber wand and internal silver wire and leads used in his 12" U12 arm. Anybody done the dirty deed? If so, better, worse or pretty much the same.
I've only seen one post on the subject and that person seemed more than happy.
Thanks to anyone who responds with personal experience. No conjecture please.
"I even use the anti-skate test in order to get some impression about the ''inside force'' . One can't get those 80 or 90 microns values without increaising of the anti-skate force . The right channel start with distortion first and need compensation with anti-skate. The German expression is ''Mu'' which means the same as micron."
I've had (several) cartridges that need different anti-skating settings in different arms. I don't think that is a sign of a defective arm. Tuning anti-skate is a necessary condition for set up - although I know there are those that don't advocate it. I've also had cartridges that needed an anti-skate force that was less of more than the recommendation. I don't worry.
One can also adjust the damping in the Tri-P. What is the recommended order of setting this in the Tri-P arm? I find this a big advantage with some cartridges like the cantilever-less Ikeda. What is your experience? Since I regretfully sold my FR-64(s) what are do you recommend with those wonderful cartridge?
Search for Vinyl Aysulm for more specs on the arms - their significant parameters should be listed there.
I would call the manufacturer. They seem very approachable.
Folks, just so you know, 50 microns is about the same as 2 mils (which is how groove deflection is measured in the US if you have American-made LP mastering gear). Many systems use microns these days as many cutter systems are European-made.
2 mils (ever so slightly over 50microns, which is ~1.97 mils) is standard level for 0VU at 1KHz on our lathe and cutter system (Scully lathe with Westerx 3D cutter head, Westerex 1700 mastering electronics with custom tube amplifiers for the cutter head). **3db more is 4 mils.** This is because 3 db more requires double the amplifier power to cut the groove. That would work out to 100 microns.
Its really obvious why no-one other than Nandric has reported any tracking issues in this regard. Its because any arm made can track 2 mils (The older Technics 1200 machine we often use to test our cuts has no troubles doing it; we use this machine with an inexpensive cartridge to make sure that a groove we cut can be played by a common turntable). His magical number of 70 microns is about 1.43 db over 0VU on our system. That's not a hard value for most arms (including the humble Technics) to do as well.
The Triplanar has no worries doing this- we've brought lathe cuts back to the shop and played them on our system no worries. The big danger in cutting louder tracks is usually overcutting the groove, not the tracking of the playback at this level, so long as you don't have the usual dangers such as out-of-phase bass or the like (out-of-phase bass can knock the stylus out of the groove). Since the groove noise tends to show up in the pressing process and even then is not a great concern if the mastering engineer did his job right, there really is very little call for going over 0VU when making the cut.
So even though 70 microns is a very slight increase in volume, its also a really rare thing to encounter (the exception being 12" singles on 45rpm and the like). This is because going over 0VU means that the engineer is likely going to have to take some time to set up the groove cut so no playback problems are encountered. For the most part, mastering houses like to avoid that sort of thing because the typical cost of mastering is about $400/hour. So a mastering operation will take pains to avoid higher levels like that, even though most arms can play it no worries.
So the conclusion is one or more of the following: 1) the Triplanar to which Nandric refers was/is damaged 2) he does not know how to set up an arm 3) the story is made up.
IOW, the math just does not support his apparently ridiculous story.
Any arm can do 70 microns or even 80. Its no big deal and Triplanars can do it too no worries.
I don't need a test LP; I can perform tests using my lathe.
The technical story is easy to understand. I'm sure most that have read this far followed it with ease.
The Triplanar is the most adjustable arm in the world. If a person can get it to track at 2 mils but not above that, something is wrong, but given that it can track at 2 mils, probably the setup and not the arm.
What is most likely it would appear from all that is written here is that the owner has either badly installed (aligned) tonearm or he has a defective tonearm but either way he can not tell the difference so everyone would agree I think that he needs the services of a qualified dealer in Music Reproduction Systems and should seek one out with particular experience with analogue/vinyl/turntable playback. Some individuals have trouble seeking help when they have a problem but there is no need to feel this way and it is not the owners fault that he is having bad performance even if it is a setup problem/error because that can be extremely difficult because of the tight tolerances required for proper vinyl playback in a Music Reproduction System. It would be best if he simply accepted this situation and then sought/obtained the help needed to resolve the issue and then he can move on to enjoy properly his Music Reproduction System which now is suffering because of this tonearm problem.
Love my TP VII UII. It tracks fine with each of my handful of carts: Kiseki Purpleheart, Koetsu Urushi Vermillion, Transfiguration Axia S, Charisma MC2. I do occasionally have a faint but audible hum issue, especially with the Kiseki mounted. It takes some fiddling with the leads and trying different grounding arrangements to minimize this but it never totally goes away. Has anyone dealt with this? I wonder if there is an upgrade that can solve it.
Got the "Schalplatte2" and finally completed the Turntable for the Triplanar U12, latest model (1-2017). It tracks 100 u with no issues, plays tracks 5 and 6 on side B perfectly - so clearly the OP must have some setup issue with his TriPlanar or very unlikely its defective. The cartridge mounted on the Triplanar U12 is a Lyra Etna.
Heres a picture of the turntable / arm used for this simple test. It is the last picture
This thread unfortunately got way off track. Looking through all the posts, I only saw one comment about the upgraded wiring vs. the stock Discovery wiring. Does anyone else have any reactions to the upgrades for the Triplanar, especially the wiring change?
Have made a improvement to this otherwise excellent tonearm. I found the VTA/SRA adjustment "tower" did not hold the arm base firmly enough with its single knurled screw attachment especially if one is more than half way up on this adjustment. If your constantly fiddling with VTA/SRA its probably not a benefit, but I don't, so I designed a add on tri-point stabilizing ring for this, see virtual systems page for how it works. Last picture. This adds tremendous stability to the tonearms mounting rigidity.
We can make more should anyone have an interest. Since it a specialized item and probably only to be made in a very small quantity it will not be inexpensive though.
That sounds like a good idea. Stability is always important. I noticed your Triplanar still has the damping trough. If you are not actually using the trough, you should try removing it from the arm. I did that a number of years ago and was surprised by the improvement in sound quality. It was too long ago for me to recall the specifics but it was an easily noticeable improvement.
From my experiences, I would actually believe nandric's comments as many newer arms just do not seem to track as well as the higher mass arms for some reason. I have heard it myself. I have heard medium mass arms mistrack many records and then here the same records on a mission mechanic arm and they track perfectly. I have never heard a FR-64s but it is a high mass arm, just like the mission mechanic.
The triplanar is the best otome I've ever used it's a wonderful wonderful products with wonderful company excellent top shelf support service Parts this is a Rolls-Royce of the turntable world what a wonderful wonderful item if it's a little out of your price range save up it's worth the wait
I have heard medium mass arms mistrack many records and then here the
same records on a mission mechanic arm and they track perfectly.
@tzh21y The issue here is something called 'effective mass' which is the combination of the mass of the arm and cartridge, and how that interacts with the mechanical resonance, which occurs when the effective mass interacts with the compliance of the cartridge.
Regardless of the quality of the arm and cartridge, if the mechanical resonance does not fall within the window of about 7-12Hz, the arm and cartridge combination will mistrack and you may experience breakup even with moderate modulation in the LP grooves.
IOW, 'medium mass arms' has nothing to do with it. What your post suggests is that the medium mass arms you heard were not set up properly.
The Triplanar allows some adjustment of the effective mass, and so it can accommodate a fairly wide range of cartridge compliance.
In the last 3 years, no one have contact me regarding problem similar to Mr. Mandric. I do not believe Mr. Mandric have a Tri-Planar tonearm. Mr. Nandric could provide serial number and date of production of his Tri-Planar tonearm so we could settle this mater. Thank you
so several people I deeply respect for real contributions to audio and MUSIC have weighed in w real experience and ownership of Tri arms...a great reason to buy one !!!!!!
@atmasphere the two discs you cut, are those available? IF I never hear the cannons again it will be toooooooooo soon....
Dear @tzh21y@pbnaudio friends: """ if the mechanical resonance does not fall within the window of about 7-12Hz, the arm and cartridge combination will mistrack and you may experience breakup even with moderate modulation in the LP grooves. """
that’s untrue for say the least. Resonance frequency between cartridge y tonearm is like any other parameter: something to take in count but cartridge/arm combination out of 8hz-12hz or even 7hz normally has no problems of mistrcking and certainly with " moderate modulation " never happens.
Tracking abilities depends more on the self cartridge abilities than the tonearm in which is mounted.
@lewm can corroborates that easy because he runs his Acutex very high compliance cartridge mounted in a very high effective mass non-damped tonearm design ( vintage ) with out tracking problems. This combination makes that the resonance frequency stays at 4hz-5hz ! !
Using a Technics Epa 250 ( vintage ) tonearm the magazyne Audio reviewer made a full Ortofon MC-2000 LOMC cartridge that’s a high compliance cartridge. If I remember the compliance was over 30 cu and the resonance frequency between the cartridge/tonearm lower than 5hz ! ! and even that the cartridge plays in clean ways the full cannon shots of the Telarc 1812 and many other " torture " Lp recordings on everykind of kind of music. The reviewer tooks real time measurement through the different analizers and tools under his control. So information did not came from test records or the like but: live real time ! !
Btw, the cannon shots are very demanding but the Carrillon grooves too. It’s a great recording and is a digital recording made it in the years where almost no one understand very clear about digital and its meaning. Telarc is a recording lesson for every one, not only the 1812 but several other Telar recordings are just fasinating and a must to own.
Obviously that as everything in analog the tonearm is important but in reality the main task regarding tracking belongs to the cartridge self tracking abilities.
Btw, when any one of us read any tonearm specs saying: tonearm tracking: 80 or 90?, never in the other way many of us already read the tracking spec in cartridge specs.
""" the Triplanar U12, latest model (1-2017). It tracks 100 u with no issues, """
well, a Rega tonearm or a Jelco one can do it too because that does not depends mainly on the tonearm but in the CARTRIDGE.
In my own system and through my analog audio life I tested hundreds of cartridge/tonearm combinations ( with over 130+ cartridges and more than 30 different tonearms. ) and only one time one combination skip LP grooves.
Mistraking can occur for different reasons: dirty stylus tip in the cartridge, unclean LP grooves, deffects in the LP pressings, a tonearm out of specs, a cartridge out of specs, to pronounced waves in the LP, a bad cartridge/tonearm set up, a new non broke-in cartridge where the cartridge suspension is not yet settle down, etc, etc.
The cartridge is the king the tonearm only a " slave " of it, an important " slave ".
Dear @tri-planar: """ Thank you Peter at PBN Audio for confirming our measurement. """
as I said that kind of mesurements belongs mainly to the cartridge tracking habilities. I’m not saying that tonearm is not important because it’s.
Dear friends, sometimes exist a misunderstood with some audio subjects and especially in analog audio because sometimes in those audio subjects our knowledge level is lower than in others. We all have different ignorance levels in different audio subjects. As reviewers has its own ignorance levels manufacturers too as audio distributors and of course we audiophiles. No one knows all in audio. Some of us could think that a professional reviewer or an ausdio items manufacturer are " experts " in overall audio when it's not that way. Many of you audiophiles knows in some audio subjects more than reviewers, distributors or manufacturers. No one knows all of all.
Here is an example that the tracking abilities belongs to the cartridge specs:
R the poster with the issue claims to have 30-40 cartridge so testing your theory not so difficult if he is so incline... arm cartridge table setup test record damaged so what is it ? poster seems mute since Peter did his test one would think common courtesy would post up a thanks to Peter....
Dear @tomic601 : I don't know what you men from your post.
Things are simple: first I hve no theory at all but facts tht any one can attest as @lewm or tht Audio review and second LP grooves tracking belongs to the cartridge self abilities specs and not to the tonearm..
What' the big deal? which your reason to your post?. Sorry, I can't understand.
@rauliruegas we are in agreement IF everything else in tge system is working..I think if you read the thread including the big detour, you will better understand my comments....
Re what Raul said about my experience mating an Acutex LPM320 with compliance = 42, per factory literature, with FR64S using Dynavector headshell which is a bit lighter than a stock FR headshell, it's fantastic, and I hear no bass rumble which you might expect with such a low resonant frequency based on the math. However, the system is on a poured concrete floor in my basement, and the turntable (TT101) is resting on a large slab of very dense styrofoam used for shipping heavy yet delicate objects. (Better than any "audiophile" shelf, IMO.) Plus the tonearm mount board is custom made from about 5 lbs of aluminum and heavily damped, plus the FR64S is sitting in a B60 base that also adds mass. Perhaps this is why I don't have an issue. Add to this the fact that the quoted compliance of 42 is probably referenced to 100Hz; so it would be much lower at 10Hz. And add to that the age of my NOS Acutex which may serve to lower compliance due to stiffening of the suspension. This combo is sounding right now to be very slightly superior to a brand new Audio Technica ART7, running next door on a highly tweaked Lenco with a Dynavector tonearm, into the same downstream system.
I agree with Raul's point that the resonant frequency of the system might not be so important at frequencies well above resonance, which includes all of the music. Unless resonance is excited.
@atmasphere the two discs you cut, are those available? IF I never hear the cannons again it will be toooooooooo soon....
Some of the LPs we cut are on the Nero's Neptune label. The LP I use for reference was not mastered by us- that was done at the Mastering Lab by Mike Reese and Doug Sax. But I have the master tapes- I know what that LP is supposed to sound like. Its called Canto General; a friend of mine came across several sealed copies recently- PM me if interested.
that’s untrue for say the least. Resonance frequency between cartridge y
tonearm is like any other parameter: something to take in count but
cartridge/arm combination out of 8hz-12hz or even 7hz normally has no
problems of mistrcking and certainly with " moderate modulation " never
happens.
Tracking abilities depends more on the self cartridge abilities than the tonearm in which is mounted.
This statement is false. Its well known that the resonance target of 7-12Hz plays an enormous role in how well a cartridge will behave in an arm, especially if heavy modulation, warp or non-concentric grooves are involved. Further, the idea that the arm plays no role in the tracking abilities of the cartridge is ludicrous and is easy to demonstrate :)
Dear friends @tri-planar: Trying to promote everything where tmasphere has intere$t to makes mon$$y from we customers he posted here and elsewhere things that showed his non-expert opinions almost as the one coming from a rookie in these specific regards: Triplanar tonearm. Please read:
""" The Reed looks nice but its unlikely to have bearings as hard as those in the Triplanar, ........................................................................ Softer bearings tend to blunt with use; this causes the arm to have a limited lifespan (mysteriously goes out of adjustment over time). """
Wow:
I own and owned dozens of tonearms vintage and today ones and in no single one found out that " blunt " or that " limited lifespan " that in this regards all type of bearings has. That those Triplanar bearings " as hards " means almost nothing because that hardness in the bearings is only one part ( important one. ) in the overall builded tonearm. The sum of parts is the key as is the whole excecution quality of any design. Per sé that " hardness just does not make " the difference ".
""" The VTA tower on the Reed appears to be a copy of that of the Triplanar, .......... """
a copy? this is an insult to Reed designer coming the post from an audio manufacturer. First than all Reed has at least four different tonearm models. Second the Triplanar is a copy too because is a pivot tonearm design and third a copy is what other very well regarded tonearm manufacturers did it with Highphonic and Audiocraft tonearms.
and here discovering the " black thread " shiowing his inexperience about:
""" But the thing that bothers me is the location of the bearings- they aren't in the plane of the LP surface, and while this makes the arm easier to build, it also means that tracking force will be lessened with bass notes and warp. """
Obviously that a true expert as @tri-planar designers know perfectly that " new discovery " and here is one of several examples with tonearms coming from the 70's, in this case/regards from Audio Technica:
I owned the 1100 and still own the 1010 and this as the Technics EPA100MK2 and the GST-801 or the Max 282 outperforms in design and performance quality the very good Triplanar. All those vintage tonearms were and are " ligth years " a head its time. Just the best of the best including today top tonearms no matter what and I'm saying all those with first hand experiences and with all my respect to the Triplanar designer. In those named tonearms are at least 5 tonearm important characterisitcs that even today designers not even " dream " with.
another untrue history/tale:
"" It is the most adjustable arm in the world and has the lowest friction bearings of any arm made ....."""
against which vintage or today tonearms? no where exist the bearing friction ( vertical/horizontal ) specs of the Triplanar.
I really respect @tri-planar designer because he came here ( Agon. ) to help a customer with a problem with the Triplanar but he never posted his design is this or that or better than..., he is a HONEST manufacturer as is J.Carr Lyra designer that came here several times to help with any trouble in his cartridges but never to promote his Lyra great cartridge designs. Exactly as Triplanar designer: HONEST, They know very well which is their role in the whole audio industry and always trying to help and not looking for money $$$$$$$$$
My hat off for those HONEST audio manufacturers.
Btw, as other well regarded today tonearms Triplanar has competition from everywhere coming from Schroeder, Origin Live, Rega, Kuzma, Reed, Thales, SAT, Telos one and many more and of course several vintage ones as the ones I mentioned that I owned or own and yes I have triplanar first hand experiences with.
Every single day is a learning day for we audiophiles.
Dear @tri-planar: "
and has the lowest friction bearings of any arm made ....."""
I', sorry to disturb you but today that the audio world eyes are in the Triplanar thread could you please share those Triplanar official measurements values of the tonearm vertical/horizontal bearing friction ( and maybe the measurement method/tools used for. ) because not only the Triplanar owners would like to know but many potential audiophiles/customers want it to know too. Information that can confirm what your friend said.
Thank's in advance and again sorry to disturb you but I think is a important Triplanar subject.
Geoffrey Owen uses rubies as the bearings in his fabulous Helius Silver-Ruby Omega arm (the arm Tim de Paravicini recommends for use with his EAR Disc Master turntable), and silica nitride as a more shatter-resistant alternative. Extremely hard and smooth, sn is perfect for use in tonearms. Hard and smooth equals quiet.
As the GST 801 the EPA ones are four point bearing. There is lmost nothing new with pivot tonerms designs but the Thales Statement design that is true evolution in pivot tonearm designs.
Dear friends: Not only here but through other threads ( different or similar subjects. ) were exposed/spreaded/posted several lies that per sé is totally dishonest. Lies in favor of what? because here are facts that proved those lies and inexperiences as in other threads too.
@tri-planar is not the guilty about but only a " victim ". In the site there is no spec for bering tonearm horizontal/vertical friction and its measurements about.
Btw, the AT tonearms came from the 70's and HP started in the early 80's. Whom copy whom on that: " same plane " bearing/Lp surface ".?
In reality that copy word exist only on those tonearms I mentioned were a true copies.
i spent 30 years at Boeing...some of them putting bearings in orbit.....and well other interesting things....... always fun to learn... Ralph - I will PM you for that disc......
this thread wil push me to order that new custom drilled Basis plinth for the TriPlaner...
I have the feeling that when raul is talking about 'lies' he is talking about me; just for the record nothing I've posted on this or other threads about tone arm or LP performance is untrue.
Generally, if I don't know the answer I stay silent. If raul is not talking about me, then whoever he is talking about sounds like he's spot on.
Dear @jtsnead : Each single post posted by any one ( including me. ) is an opportunity to learn and this learn means different things example: what not to do, what to do or just confirm what we know or maybe a new subject to think on it.
Lies, several of them everywhere as this one in this thread:
Dear @tri-planar: " and has the lowest friction bearings of any arm made ....."""
I’, sorry to disturb you but today that the audio world eyes are in the Triplanar thread could you please share those Triplanar official measurements values of the tonearm vertical/horizontal bearing friction ( and maybe the measurement method/tools used for. ) because not only the Triplanar owners would like to know but many potential audiophiles/customers want it to know too. Information that can confirm what your friend said. """"
that " lowest friction " statement is a lie: Triplanar owner just can’t confirm it even that I ask for it and till today not here but not even in the triplanar site exist information that confirm it. Was you not me whom posted that lie.
Raul, do you know what a security clearance is? In a case like this it means that the person or company with the clearance cannot divulge information by law.
Each post is an opportunity to learn. I have followed your posts and have learned some useful info. I have also followed Ralphs' posts and he too shares a lot of useful info.
IMHO; You need to Learn and Think on it.
For two years, I thought and learned about the Technics SL1200G and other tonearms. I saved my nickels and finally decided to ask Ralph to mod the Technics with a Triplanar tonearm for me. I did not become aware that Ralph and Tri were friends until months went by and I kept wanting to send Ralph and Tri some money. That's when I learned that they shared the same business address. Both Ralph and Tri would not take any money until the TT / tonearm was ready.
You are the one who is upset with Ralph. Myself and many others are thankful for Ralphs' contributions to this Forum. Your posts are also appreciated.
Raul,
You called me out on a thread and said #@%$ that I would never know how good the stock arm is. Wrong ! You thought that I needed to rewire the tonearm with your recommended wire, that I needed to waste my money on multiple headshells. That I needed to do this and waste a lot of time critically listening to all these tweaks to gain the knowledge and only then could I be sure that a better tonearm would elevate the stock Technics to a new level. WRONG !!
I have now had my Technics / Triplanar rig for months and am sure that it was the right decision. Following your advice would have wasted a lot of time and money.
Dear Raul,
I do not see anyone joining you in calling out Ralph. Learn and Think on it already. Your advice is Not the last word on anything. Again, your thoughts and advice would have cost me time and money.
So; Raul at this time I see you as a pompous a** whose ( knowledge ? ) would have cost me, Not benefited me.
Dear Raul,
Learn and Think on it. Maybe take a course in English and writing. Then and only then will you be able to clearly get your points across without appearing to be a snobbish pompous A**.
Dear @nkonor: """ You thought that I needed to rewire the tonearm with your recommended wire, that I needed to waste my money on multiple headshells. That I needed to do this and waste a lot of time critically listening to all these tweaks to gain the knowledge and only then could I be sure that a better tonearm would elevate the stock Technics to a new level. WRONG !! """
Rewire any stock tonearm as the Technics that was builded at a low price point always is a must to do it. My advise silver wire recomendation was only an alternative for do it that but certainly not the last " word ".
A removable headshel tonearm design as the Technics gives to any one the opportunity to really match any single cartridge for its can shows at its best. Choosing different headshells with different build materials, different headshells weigth, different builded shape and even choosing different female cartridge pin connectors makes the difference always.
A non removable headshell design can’t do the best for all cartridges and always will puts its " signature " that we can’t change and if some one is deep founded on the ideal resonance frequency it’s extremely more easy to achieve it through a removable headshell design because even that normally a fixed headshell designs comes with different counter weigths it can’t really change the inertia moment due that the counterweigth is so near the tonearm pivot and in a removable headshell design the weigth changes trhough different headshells can do it because are at the farest point to that tonearm pivot.
Yes, I still think that you can’t be aware how good is the stock Technics tonearm because you did not give that tonearm to shows it at its best.
You said a waste of time and money well I’m in total disagreement with you in this regards because that Technics tonearm is a very well designed and with very high quality excecution of that design at a low price market point.
In tonearms like in any audio item always exist trade offs and the success in each one audio systems depends on which trade offs we choosed. I stay with a moded stock Technics for very good reasons against your Triplanar.
Btw, I want to let and to be very clear: first I'm not against any person per sé. I'm against any dishonest person, against any person that lie on purpose, against any person that wants to take advantage on the low knowledge level of other persons, against any bia$ed opinion because his comercial bu$$ine$. I respect any single human been but those with that kind of " atributtes " .
If you don't care about or are in favor of then is up to you. Btw, are you dishonest or a lier?: I don't think so.
Please let me know when J.Carr , or other audio manufacturers that post through internet, posted something in favor his Lyra designs or speaks against the competitions or lied in any way. Well I can tell you that NEVER did it and never will. This is the kind of gentlemans I respect and that's why I respect you too.
Dear @whatthe : Well that's a pivot tonearm design that runs in true tangential way with all its advantages because the tracking error ialmost disappeared as the necessity of antiskating.
@downunder that's an owner and a true audiophile can chime here about.
So you don't have to worry if you choose between Löfgren A or B or Stevenson for the cartridge/tonearm alignment.
You don't have to worry about higher distortions at inner grooves.
That " unexistent " tracking error means lower distortion levels and higher MUSIC information that means higher MUSIC enjoyment.
Pivoted tonearms designs are well know for better bass range quality performance against the tangential tonearm designs and with the Thales you don't lost this important advantage. Yes, it's a true tonearm evolution. Has the best of both tonearm worlds ! !
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