Mural, just re-read my post and sounds a bit snotty to you. That's not how I meant it, just tired with a bad cold today and too tired to re-do it. |
Detlof, of course the child wasn't foolish, that's the point. The child was unecumbered by prejudicial rhetoric and was endowed with clarity of perception. Those around the child too worried about being percieved as fools were fooled into being fools.
As for me I begining to think that Zaikesman's 9/18 post may have been the most perceptive. We have gone from a recommendation of drunken stupor to appreciate mystical
superiorty to Tarrot cards to childrens fairly tales. Earlier I said I didn't want to get to deep into this. How ever I find my self knee deep in it. I'm getting out before I drown. |
Asa, your last post took the words right out of my fingers.
For your information, I only mentioned "other sources" because I am humble enough to know my word is as only good as the distance between my mouth and my ears when it comes to forum readers. It wasn't the sound of the Pass I made my pitch to outside sources for anyway, it was the fact it is technically the cleanest of all ss amps. Hearing, as you and I know, is subjective, as you and I demonstrate ad nauseum.
We will always disagree on the subject of noise floor, otherwise known as component distortion. Everything I want to hear is encoded in the medium. I don't want my circuitry second guessing my preferences. I'll do that at the record store.
After I exchanged my tube setup for the Pass, one long time friend exclaimed how much more extended my system sounded. I have off the chart hearing, and I notice the difference between the two is substantial. The music is more alive, to me.
I'm afraid I'll have to agree with Greg as well over the need to spend major bucks for a musical ss amp. I will trump Greg and announce the same goes for tube amps. I didn't get the sound right in my system until I had shelled out a hundred bucks for retubing my cd player. It costs exponentially greater for pre amps and amps. Just take a look at a Jadis. It is true that a budding listener will do much better on a limited budget buying a new sweet Jolida or older CJ and SF.
Kevziek, not so. I don't think Asa has given his Pass a fair shake yet. He doesn't believe me, but I know for a fact one can have the best of both worlds by initiating your best sounding tube signal through and amplified by a silky clean ss amp. Of course if you want the same noise floor/air imparted on the signal before speakers that Asa values then just ignore my advice.
I feel I need to remind everyone that my Holy Grail I am striving for was the product of ss mono blocks doing the work for what I consider the best speaker ever made, the Apogee Scintilla. In the same listening room I heard a fifty grand tube Jadis powering a plethora of 5k dynamic driver units and that never produced any magic for me. |
"Cleanest", "silky clean", qualities of space to be measured "technically" only in terms of diminishing distortion...yes, if these are the values you adhere to, or your bias in seeing sound, then follow Muralman and get a SS amp...
But, I believe there is more to stereo spatial performance than measuring the technical aspects of distortion. I don't think its radically subjective at all.
And, yes, if you are married to a speaker whose impedance drops to 1 ohm (the Scintillas) then, yes, you will not like a tube amp - because that would be incompetance to marry the two - and will, by necessity, need high powered, current dumping SS amps...and perhaps, to perfect that choice, perfect an argument biased towards the SS amps that you must have...
I've reviewed for TAS, UA, been in the hobby for 25 years etc. and, trust me, I've given Pass a fair shake.
As for hearing acuity, and your implied reccomendation of your own hearing, let me remind: there are many people with great acuity in technical terms who still can not hear what "musical" is. The mind in primary and causal to the ears (mind precedes material). I know many people who are older and have lost some upper frequency acuity who, nevertheless, have exceedingly musical systems. People who claim that the "technical" aspects of frequency acuity are determitive of the ability to hear what is "musical" - and use that argument to bolster their claims - are the same materially biased people who believe that space should be as "clean" as possible. Again, this is not a coincidence.
Muralman, I think you are right: SS is the right choice for you, and , admittedly, I don't think Jadis would match well with Apogees. Then again, I don't know anyone who would actually consider it. |
Hello Asa,
I have nothing to say! Tubes are good! SS is not? Or vice versa? Things that you guy discuss on the subject was discussed long time ago? No need for me to resurrect a dead subject.
About Zen, what do you know about Zen? I know "nothing" about Zen. All I know is if I drink the "water", I know how is it "taste" like. Do you?
"You can look and see parts (reductionist-orientated scientist), you can look to see the whole (going up to a mountain and not coming down), or you can come down from the mountain, realize that the only "Zen" up there is the "Zen" you brought with you, that "it" is everywhere, and see parts and the whole at the same time - they are not exclusive perceptions. Transcending that belief is part of their integration."
Is there such a thing call Zen up or Zen down? Or part or whole? Musical or not! Even if it does, so what. Dinosaurs extinct! Budda is also dead! I know "where" I came from, "where" will I go! Again, you do not drink the same "water" that I drink. You don't know! The moment one try to think to define Zen, one is already wrong! Look it up! :-)
Earlier post that I quote Detlof about my system. Did I say it is a good or bad thing. NO! Musical or not, I don't know! Do I like the sound of it ? Heck, yes!!! The question is can any system replicate "that"? Or do we care? Tubes or SS!
Do I care if my amps is tubes or SS ? NO! Do I care if my amps are musical or not, YES. Like I've said, one only see the finger, but not the moon.
I've seen tons of "good" men like you, and none "good and bad" like me. See how rare am I? Man, I am building up my own sand castle. :-)
Unsound, lookup your post, you arrived at the door!!! :-)
Z man, you are the lion. :-)
Regards
Do you guys really like the Ten Bulls quote? I like it, too.:-) |
Hello Detlof, I did not mean to forget about you, but here it is: I like your wording!!!
"Perhaps it is the ambient noise of a life event , which I miss in classical CDs. Instead of blackness, I expect to hear those subtle cues, which tell me of the size of the hall, those reverbs from the side-, or backwalls, which simply are not there".
I have look for something like that in A'Gon, for a while, but yours are the best.
Thanks
Can quote you some where, else ? :-) |
No fun, The fire are out!!! :-) |
6chac:
1.Where one can not say, it is best to remain silent. That seems to have escaped your long response, all the while you claim that one can not say. That is delusiuonal, or if volitional, inauthentic.
2. There is a difference between claiming that you are encompassing the Truth in its entirety in words, versus using words to point at the Truth. Granted, pointing at the moon is not the moon, but Jesus and Buddha talked about the "what is" - or Zen, or God, or a higher level of organization, or whatever row you want to hoe - all the time, so I'll go with them, if you don't mind.
2. If someone claims they are enlightened, they usually aren't. I'm not, I know that.
3. I never heard the Buddha say that "I am right and you are wrong" with such judgemental force. Hmmm...
4. What does it mean when someone goes on and on decrying others going on and on?
5. If one has to look it up from someone else, or decry thinking and dialogue, itself part of the "what is", then he probably doesn't know.
Too far afield even for me. 6chac, if you want to continue, contact me directly and I will talk to you there. |
Asa,
1. Where one can not say, it is best to remain silent. That seems to have escaped your long response, all the while you claim that one can not say. That is delusiuonal, or if volitional, inauthentic.
- I don't know what the hell you are talking about, you are too high education for me. You can teach me some English if you don't mind? :-)
2. There is a difference between claiming that you are encompassing the Truth in its entirety in words, versus using words to point at the Truth. Granted, pointing at the moon is not the moon, but Jesus and Buddha talked about the "what is" - or Zen, or God, or a higher level of organization, or whatever row you want to hoe - all the time, so I'll go with them, if you don't mind.
- Budda has level? Please don't hoe, I have "nothing" to show.
3. If someone claims they are enlightened, they usually aren't. I'm not, I know that.
- Do you remember what did you do, yesterday ? There you go!
4. What does it mean when someone goes on and on decrying others going on and on?
- Wrong is wrong. Nothing I can say.
5. If one has to look it up from someone else, or decry thinking and dialogue, itself part of the "what is", then he probably doesn't know.
- How do you learn to add: 1+1=2 ?
Lastly, my lady said, she does not wants no trolls, nor lion, so if I offend anyone, I trully apologize!!! Cheers.
Toss away... |
Wrong again. Jadis matches very well with most Apogees. The Scintilla stands alone as a beast for an amp. It does take lots of current, but not a powerful amp. I have a friend who is very happy with his Scintilla powered by an 80 watt class A amp of his own design.
I have never heard, under any circumstance, a more believable music system than what I had with the Scintilla. Much of my awe was due, no doubt, to being my first listen to a dipole. Any dipole will out stage a dynamic box speaker anyway. I get more air from the back wave from my dipoles than any tube can provide. Room acoustics even play more of a role in musical systems than tubes. I have a great room. Listening initiates always remark about the "ear phone" effect (meaning they are emersed in the music), and that the stage remains cohesive regardless to listener position.
As you pretend not to know, I have legs in both worlds, both valve and ss. I will drop my Pass in an instant when I hear a superior sounding tube amp in the same price range. I've done it before for a smaller system. With my present speakers, I have found listening to tubes in the first gain stage works for me. I'm dying to hear a pair of Margules on my Duettas.
Specs be damned. I am talking real world music reproduction using my ears (and mind, for those who can't make the semantic connection themselves).
I wish you would refrain from using divisive sarcasm. When you do, I can't shake the image I have of you as a hooded figure preaching from top a mountain. Sprinkling terms like "materialistic" into your writing imparts a dogmatic, "My way or the bye way" attitude.
I can't help that it was a Levinson amp, Scintilla, Koetzu, Goldmund, and the perfect room that was so real it fooled me and not the Jadis powering whatever. I'm sorry that it's such a pill for you to swallow. Before you move in and say, "You don't know real," I'll tell you my daughter is a principal string player, my son blows the trumpet, and there is often someone stretching their fingers on our old world piano.
I don't see what tubes and ss have to do with spirituality, so in your pet vein I have no recommendation for you, except this; while I listen to the band play in my house, you can as well listen reverantly to white noise, believing in your heart it is "space." |
Yippers, from deep in the backwoods of the green mountains of Vermont we like the way that 6chac jawbones. |
No Jetter!? Loosing here!!! I'd thrown out Ten Bulls, only get back a few trolls, and a lion! And now, my lady told me that I cannot take trolls, nor lion. Have a nice weekend everyone. :-)
Regards |
On 6chac: this is what happens when someone reads too many books on "Zen". Actually, glad you are having fun, just clean up after you get out of the sandbox and go home for supper.
On Muralman: what, if I note the materialistic bias in your statements, I'm being derisive? Jeez, a guy who wants "technically clean" sound recoiling against someone noting his materialistic bias, imagine that...
As far as the Scintilla being the end-all in speakers, I think its safe to say that you need to get out more. But, again, I'm glad you had an experience that showed you something more (which, empirically-speaking, may raise the possibility that there is more for you to learn...)
"Spirituality is a pet vein", like a tangential hobby. Hmm, interestingly view.
Two guys who know it all after hearing Scintillas, or reading some Zen. What more can I say, you've perfected a perfect way to immunize your ideas; conclusions without any reasons other than, well, no reasons. You're right, Muralman, the fact that your daughter and son play instruments thoroughly deconstructs my observations. So, now that I have been so thoroughly deconstructed by a duo of zen/sound enlightened beings, I will say, have a nice wkend.
Oh, that's not sarcasm you are hearing; its broken bamboo across your back. |
Asa tell me. If your ear/mind were to catch the sound of a player and piano in a nearby room, and searching, you found the two, stopped awhile for a listen, would you spend the remainder of your life searching for a more real musical experience? Seems like you would. I stumbled on just that aural experience, only the ending was different. I knew then very well what a well played piano sounded like. And after countless concerts, I have found no way to improve on my enjoyment of hands on ivory. That I was fully snookered, for a prolonged time, has left me nothing more to do, than to recapture that experience. I'm a lucky guy. So far, my journey has taken me very close. It's comforting to know what I am after.
If there is a better speaker out there than the Apogee, none of the deep pockets Apogee owners I know around the world have found any. It isn't for not looking; there is nothing in audio more important to us than to find a worthy contender to replace our aging Apogees. Obviously you have never heard one in a great setup, or you wouldn't be so cavalier about Apogees. tch tch Mr. World Wise.
As for spirituality, I find the invocation of the material versus spiritual conundrum weaved into a light hearted audio discussion to be trivializing to the latter and inconsequential to the former.
It must be painful for you, a man of professed authority, to get a spanking. That would explain your sand box antics of striking out. 6chac has me thinking more than you'll ever. Certainly he is wiser, and a lot funnier. |
6chac, thanks, don't think I deserve your kind words, there are far better descriptions around here for what we experience, when listening to music.
Unsound, yes of course the child wasn't foolish, all I was trying to do, was to poke some fun at all of us here, me included, about the musiclover falling prey to audiophiles, like David fallen into the lion's den.
Oddly, or rather not oddly enough, no one took this up. Probably too busy bickering away. Possibly Muralman loves his Apogees more than music, Asa perhaps more, what his astute and nimble mind shapes and forms, by reflecting the experience, which music gives him as a catalyst. I love his shaping and forming, I learn from them, more often than not I agree with them, but in a sense they would remain flatus vocis for me until I would have grasped the nucleus of his experience, beyond his thinking and his arguing. Only then, I would be able to say, yes Asa loves or Muralman loves music, beyond all gear, thoughts, beliefs and other narcissisms, which so easily attach themselves to a hobby passionately pursued.
As I tried to state very early in this thread, the entire argument seems a bit outdated. Both formats have advanced and have moved closer to each other. The benchmark here I feel, should be musicality. Musicality is an elusive term, because (ASA is right here, to my mind) musicality is a quality of psyche. (I do not like the term "mind" here, because of its proximity to thinking or consciousness. )Like the sense for rhythm it seems engrained in our essence, in our dna if you will, it is archetypal. The experience of it jumps at us, be it from an interpretation or a composition, which we then call musical. In actual fact, what we hear is not musical per se, but acts as a catalyst on our psyche and moves it, before our thinking about it sets in. Hence, to follow this line of reasoning, a music lover has to be an arch-narcissist, an addict, longing for his next shot of music, tickling his endorphines? Not necessarily, because musicality always hits us by surprise. It is no category of our thinking- conscious mind. It hits us in the same way as would the sudden sight of a strikingly beautiful women striding on the other side of the road, or the unfolding of a rolling countryside, as we approach the summit of a pass-road.
Some amps can surprise us in that way, fairly consistently, with the right kind of music. Many simply cannot, ever. Amongst those, which I have experienced, are tubes as well as SS. I know SS amps which do this to me and I know tube amps which do not. For me the entire argument has become pretty much moot, especially since I have learnt to take and mingle the best of both worlds, in order to have the music get at me at that psychic level where it belongs and does me best. Cheers |
Thank you Detlof for bringing some much needed compromise as well as wisdom to this debate. The overriding factor that I have found in that ever elusive term "musicality" has less to do with tube or ss devices so much as how components work together as a system in a given room.
Muralman's experience with Apogees mirror two separate experiences I had with both the Stages and Scintillas. Although I heard several of the other Apogees models in different systems, there are only two experiences that stand out and are included in those "musical moments" that one never forgets. What was very interesting to me and still baffles me to this day is how the Stage system synergized with a lowly Adcom amp. I didn't try to dissect why it sounded the way it did, like real music, but was just amazed that it did. Why? The room, the recording the set-up, all those things certainly contributed to the magic. I figured out a long while back, after that and a few similar experiences that sometimes a system comes together by luck, sometimes through skill but more often than not, through trial and error. With me the latter since I really don't have the technical skill to get it right the first time.
Things aren't black and white, music isn't tubes vs. ss. A great system is the sum of all its components, not least of all the room it is set-up in. It just is and when one experiences reproduced music as we hear it live, like Muralman did many years ago, nothing else matters other than the means and methods of recreating that magic in the home environment. We need to respect and encourage each other in our individual quest to attain that, this is what it's all about. |
Tube Groover and Detlof, thankyou for the civil sanity. I shouldn't have stooped to the needling. I don't write here out of ego. I just get carried away with relating my successes.
It is a bit cruel of me to brag about Apogees, when most visitors here never will see one let alone hear one. It is my curse that I continue to try to recapture "the moment." My belief I can, urges me on.
For my enjoyment, the music my system provides is really without fault given my system and home parameters. Never can I justify the expense I would need to go the next five percent. My room, though very good, is a mortal's room, not the awesome dedicated room I heard the Scintillas. Neither can I afford a great turntable, arm, and cartridge (being frail, the first click or pop breaks my heart). I am looking for a pristine Scintilla.
Tubegroover, you are amazing. Were you a dealer? I owned the Stage too. I went through a lot of components looking for synergy with the Stage. It being the easiest of the Apogees to power, I settled on an able tube amp. When everything is zeroed in, the realism is eerie. You feel you can touch the face of a singer. Unfortunately, the Stage is a difficult brat to live with, it's positioning being so persnickety. The Duetta Sig is far more forgiving. I like it's loving sound. Major reviewer, Paul Bolin still uses one (last I saw) as his reference speaker.
Yes, more than tubes and/or ss, it is the system including room that makes or breaks a personally satisfying musical experience; things aren't black and white. Thankyou for that, tubegroover. I proved that to myself. With my Stage, I found happiness with tubes. With the Duetta it is with the Pass. Both systems are wonderful. As you can see, when it comes to types of ampliphiers, I offer no easy answer.
How things have calmed down.
|
On a side note: Scintilla. (yrs ago) I remember someone was trying to make his pair play music with a pair of Electro 50. These, while great, couldn't move the Scintillas beyond whispering level... they kept blowing fuses. All we wanted was to LISTEN to them so we looked around for a big tube, thinking that was a safe proposition -- but couldn't find anything on loan bigger than EAR 519 (i.e. mine, at the time). Those couldn't go very far either. Finally, a dealer consented to experiment with us and bring over 300 pds worth of amps (an old Symphonic Line model called Kraft 400A). These did it: we got the Scintilla scintillating, as it were.
For once transistors did it -- but the story is for Muralman1's benefit: not easy to drive Scintillas. Duettas were a piece of cake by comparison! |
Well, I don't know about a spanking - remember, I did invite you both to contact me off this forum, which you chose not to do - so, I'll just leave you to your Apogees. Which, again, I consider nice speakers and am glad that you have found your nirvana, or close to it. As the old philosospher's adage goes, you can't teach the color purple to a blind man. I think the "what is" has it rigged that way. Actually, now that I think of it you and Bolin do have many qualities of perception in common - he loves the ARC VT100 6550-based amp and Nordost SPM too, components that if you haven't listened too, you should because you might like them. I'm going to have to take the good writer part back though; "hands on ivory" is just too much for me this morning. You write well when you are not so juiced up. I re-extend my invitation to a reasoned, mature conversation where their isn't an audience.
Apart from that, be well. |
I use no magic to extend my life;
Now, before me, the dead "WORDS" become alive.
Keep the fire burnning, everyone... :-)
I have already done my reading on how to fly and airplane, everyone think that I can fly a Boeing 747, now? ;-) |
Oh, Kevsiak, if you do buy some equipment, I think we would all be interested in your reactions. |
I'm sorry, Asa, I didn't notice your invitation for a private dialogue. I think I might enjoy it, but I'm afraid I will have to decline at this time... Pressing responsibilities and all that, my good chap. Lets say we shake mouses, and move on.
I do want to stay in touch, though. I value your honest opinion. |
An update. My friend who borrowed the X-350 and raved about it, said that it still lacked the naturalness and realness of tubes. He also just installed a dedicated line (10 g.) and is astounded with the improvements. His MC2000 now sounds more dynamic, lowered noise floor, more clarity. He doesn't have the dealer's X-350 now, but is still using a Threshold S-550e, and he says that with the dedicated line, the differences in the amps is more apparent. He is now convinced he doesn't want solid state. I will be going to do some comparing this Sunday, and also bring my VT-100 along. Will post after that........... |
i always thought that tubes offered a magic in the midrange that solid state couldnt match.i recently picked up a yba passion 2oo.it easily is as good as my tube amp in the midrange and doesnt roll off the top end. bass is a bit deeper, tighter and extended.best of all it offers two outputs to the speakers one for the low end and one for the treble.this really makes a differance.last of all iam still interested in your cd player.if you are interested in selling.let me know what you would like to get for it..just go to my wanted add and leave me a post.i cancelled your last response out.thank you |
Kevziek,
You have put into words the same results I am getting with the AMR DP-777 DAC. |
I had a nice Mac 7270 hooked to a Cary SLP98P then went to a Cary V12R big difference, and an even bigger difference when I got a Cary CAD 120's. I like SS too, but to me nothing beats tubes. I've heard SS amps that cost lots more that sounded great, but again not as good. |
